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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/8/2013 3:12:25 PM

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Now I can definitely understand that there a reasons why a person who was legitimately raped would choose not to talk to the cops about it... I can't say that talking to the cops would be a pleasant experience, but claiming that you're not too traumatized to talk to everybody BUT the cops, while at the same time being too traumatized to specifically talk to them is bullshit in my opinion.

I don't belief that trauma can be that conveniently selective.

Oh! That seems pretty straightforward, to me. Talking to friends, or to unknown people on the net, won't add to the trauma, but talking to the cops will. Or, at least, that's what I've heard it's like for those who've been raped.

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/8/2013 3:29:15 PM

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Yes, the burden of proof falls on the state. However, what we were discussing was DS reporting it to the police and the whys and why nots of him doing so. That is, completely different. Also, if a true comparison was to be made in this situation, the burden of proof is not the criminal level of without a reasonable doubt, but rather the civil level, or preponderance of the evidence.

On the FL threads it seems that people are comparing this to a workplace situation, with standard workplace solutions. For instance, if a man's accused by a number of different parties of abusing them, his boss gives him the sack (in one scenario). It seems the organisers of the BDSM group concerned don't take this view, however. They've called for the criminal level of evidence as a requirement before action.

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/8/2013 3:35:25 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

Now I can definitely understand that there a reasons why a person who was legitimately raped would choose not to talk to the cops about it... I can't say that talking to the cops would be a pleasant experience, but claiming that you're not too traumatized to talk to everybody BUT the cops, while at the same time being too traumatized to specifically talk to them is bullshit in my opinion.

I don't belief that trauma can be that conveniently selective.

Oh! That seems pretty straightforward, to me. Talking to friends, or to unknown people on the net, won't add to the trauma, but talking to the cops will. Or, at least, that's what I've heard it's like for those who've been raped.

I can accept that I may be wrong on this, I'm certainly not a professional, and have not studied trauma and it's effects on people in depth, but based on what I do know about it, I just find it very hard to believe that trauma would selectively inhibit you from being able to talk to strangers about a traumatic event.

I can see there being a distinction between talking to friends and people you have a close relationship with that make you feel "safe" to tell your story, and telling it to people with whom you have no such bond.

But trauma not inhibiting you to tell your story to person A with whom you have no such bond, while inhibiting you of telling your story to person B with whom you have no such bond seems like a convenient excuse for the choice not to tell it to person B in my opinion.

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/8/2013 3:38:10 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Well, hmm. That really is rather a lot of smoke for there to be no fire at the root of it, isn't it?

No. Usually, when it's that many, we're talking about mobbing, whatever the allegations.

Please, go read up on it, if you haven't already.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

quote:

'Cheapshot' is feeble, Aswad, and misses the point.

quote:

Having consulted my dictionary, I agree. Mea culpa.

It's useful to read up on stuff now and then, isn't it?

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/8/2013 3:42:07 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

However, if you are traumatized, you aren't going to be telling your story all over the internet to anyone who will listen.

This is the second time this has been said. Why do you believe this?

Basically the way they are talking about it. It isn't the way someone who was traumatized would do it. It is, however, the way someone who was angry would do it.

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/8/2013 3:52:37 PM

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ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
Basically the way they are talking about it. It isn't the way someone who was traumatized would do it. It is, however, the way someone who was angry would do it.

How would you know that, LL? Ishtar has said she's no expert - and I'm no expert either. Your level of confidence about this is a bit surprising to me, to say the least.

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/8/2013 3:53:02 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

Yes, the burden of proof falls on the state. However, what we were discussing was DS reporting it to the police and the whys and why nots of him doing so. That is, completely different. Also, if a true comparison was to be made in this situation, the burden of proof is not the criminal level of without a reasonable doubt, but rather the civil level, or preponderance of the evidence.

On the FL threads it seems that people are comparing this to a workplace situation, with standard workplace solutions. For instance, if a man's accused by a number of different parties of abusing them, his boss gives him the sack (in one scenario). It seems the organisers of the BDSM group concerned don't take this view, however. They've called for the criminal level of evidence as a requirement before action.

But it ISN'T similar to a work place situation is it? These are private events, held at a private venue. The organization is a private one.

It is not such an easy situation at a work place to deal with. You are there, getting paid to do a job. You shouldn't have to up and leave and find another job because someone is inappropriate.

Whether you like it or not, the reality is that people can simply not attend these events. They lose nothing by not going.

To be clear, they aren't calling for a "criminal level of evidence" either. They are requiring something to substantiate the claim more than just her word. They aren't saying if he hasn't been convicted, too bad.

Can you give a logical explanation as to why she claimed she had no police report and then provided a report that didn't include her "rapist's" name, or even HER own name, and in fact wasn't about rape at all?

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/8/2013 4:11:41 PM

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ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

But it ISN'T similar to a work place situation is it? These are private events, held at a private venue. The organization is a private one.

Yes, but the essential rule applies: that there are, or should be 'in-house' ways of dealing with things. 'Civil' - in the standard definition of the term, not the legal one, from which the latter derives.

quote:

Whether you like it or not, the reality is that people can simply not attend these events. They lose nothing by not going.

Exactly - so why is it such a problem that the accused man here just be barred from such events, at least pending some resolution of this whole issue?

quote:

To be clear, they aren't calling for a "criminal level of evidence" either. They are requiring something to substantiate the claim more than just her word. They aren't saying if he hasn't been convicted, too bad.

Then, there's little practical difference. I'm sure we all know that substantiating claims of rape is extremely difficult. All the many problems are compounded here because these things happened in a BDSM context. Bruises, cuts, evidence of even heavy wounds, could mean nothing. They're easily-enough explained away in a vanilla context, never mind a BDSM context.

quote:

Can you give a logical explanation as to why she claimed she had no police report and then provided a report that didn't include her "rapist's" name, or even HER own name, and in fact wasn't about rape at all?

No. I haven't yet seen as much of an explanation as I'd like. It'll be interesting to find out - which I'm sure I will, because the offended parties seem to be speaking up, unlike the alleged perp.

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/8/2013 4:26:38 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
Exactly - so why is it such a problem that the accused man here just be barred from such events, at least pending some resolution of this whole issue?

I would bar all parties concerned until the issue was resolved. That is the only fair way to handle it.

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/8/2013 4:40:21 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LizDeluxe

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
Exactly - so why is it such a problem that the accused man here just be barred from such events, at least pending some resolution of this whole issue?

I would bar all parties concerned until the issue was resolved. That is the only fair way to handle it.

There's a logic to that, yes. Though, from the looks of it, many of the parties have already barred themselves, as it were.

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/8/2013 4:50:59 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
Basically the way they are talking about it. It isn't the way someone who was traumatized would do it. It is, however, the way someone who was angry would do it.

How would you know that, LL? Ishtar has said she's no expert - and I'm no expert either. Your level of confidence about this is a bit surprising to me, to say the least.

It's no shock to me that you are surprised by it. However, I have a long career history of being able to make those kinds of judgments and doing so with accuracy.

As to your other post:

The host of the events has the right to choose how she would like to handle it. She's made that choice. You, me, DS and even the women claiming rape and the man accused have no say in what she does. Other than to not attend the events. Personally, I have said the guy sounds like a douchebag. I would likely absent myself from the group until the issues are resolved to my liking.

It is the holes in the OP's thread on FL that I find disturbing. Claiming to have no police report, then claiming something else. The police report having things redacted that should pertain to the OP, the accused name not being part of the report. If she were reporting someone else's experience who didn't want to come forward, I might understand the "victim's" name being redacted. It wasn't about someone else, it was about the OP. And why was his name not part of the report?

Honestly, do you not find that quite strange? I see that you do find it a bit odd.

I do understand how explaining things could be difficult to the police, given the BDSM context, however, if a police report was filed, it seems the OP wasn't really all that worried about that, was she?

I've said many times, that the accused not speaking up doesn't scream guilt to me. You have heard of "not dignifying something with an answer," haven't you?

The reality is that this man resigned from the mentor program, so he he isn't in that position of power anymore. What the host does is up to her.

For the record, I have never said that I believe this man has been blatantly falsely accused. I just feel that instantly jumping on the accuser's bandwagon, and the escalation to him being a serial rapist and the host being his "pimp" of sorts is taking things quite far. It really is a matter of people so adamant about not wanting to "blame the victim" that they ignore anything questionable about the accusation.

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/8/2013 5:14:14 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

For me, the most famous such example is the crime Julian Assange is charge with. It's "minor rape," literal translation, not at all the same crime as rape in the US.

He was charged in Sweden, where the laws resemble those in Norway, which means things like sexual remorse are called 'lesser rape', to go with the translation you provided. The charge you're referring to, however, is best translated as 'sexual misconduct', though the word misconduct should be understood along the lines of 'disturbing the peace' or 'annoyance' or the like. For instance, nagging someone about sex- without threats- would be considered sexual misconduct. Earlier, they considered charging him with 'inappropriate pressure', but that charge was dropped.

quote:

Some activists want to tighten the law, while other people point out that would make a lot of drunk hookups technically rape.

That's technically rape here, but it only counts if someone reports it. Also, sexual remorse is rape, provided it's deemed to be the case that you should've realized that there were factors that might lead to sexual remorse (e.g. due to a huge gap in social status, or if a condom wasn't used, etc.). The law doesn't state that it only applies to men, but the jurisprudence is that all responsibility lies with the man, and in practice a conviction doesn't occur unless it was man (if we're talking about adults, anyway).

Going by our experiences with it, I would not recommend "tightening" the laws.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/8/2013 5:18:55 PM

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ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
How would you know that, LL? Ishtar has said she's no expert - and I'm no expert either. Your level of confidence about this is a bit surprising to me, to say the least.

quote:

It's no shock to me that you are surprised by it. However, I have a long career history of being able to make those kinds of judgments and doing so with accuracy.

What career history is this, LL? As an American, I do of course loathe and despise you deeply, and have therefore not absorbed as much of what you've said about your career as might be useful for present purposes. Could you provide me with a summary?

quote:

I've said many times, that the accused not speaking up doesn't scream guilt to me. You have heard of "not dignifying something with an answer," haven't you?

Yep. But, just as the women who've been, to you and others, somewhat suspiciously 'traumatised' by their experience of this man; I'm very suspicious of a man who is accused of rape and says nothing - nothing at all. Me, I'd say at least one thing - "That just isn't me. I wouldn't do that, I *couldn't* do that." If you're astonished, you *say* so. You absolutely don't just shut your trap and absent yourself from internet and real-time society, as this man seems to have done.

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/8/2013 5:32:37 PM

Aswad

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ORIGINAL: evesgrden

Sorry, but that kind of thinking really scares me.

«Are you willing to gamble that her 'yes' really meant yes?» - Chief Inspector, Oslo PD.

If you have one glass each, her consent is invalid, but his responsibility is unchanged. Fighing against tighter laws is unfortunately the only way to avoid having women's sexuality and autonomy legally reduced to "but women are just delicate dolls that can't make their own choices" and having men yet again defined as the sole party responsible for a woman's choices, just minus the option of influencing them. Old school misogyny rebranded as feminism. I consider women as capable as men, so I'm rather offended by such developments, even disregarding the risk aspect.

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/8/2013 5:38:40 PM

Aswad

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ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

It's useful to read up on stuff now and then, isn't it?

Yes, it is. And I usually do, if I'm not sure what a word means. In this case, I was sure, but sure of the wrong meaning.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/8/2013 5:40:59 PM

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ORIGINAL: JustDragonflies
How did you know for sure that they were lies? Meaning, the times you say you saw abuse allegations but it wasn't factual.

Since I honestly am not permitted to put the answer to this on the forums, I will send you an email

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/8/2013 5:44:40 PM

Aswad

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ORIGINAL: LizDeluxe

I would bar all parties concerned until the issue was resolved. That is the only fair way to handle it.

So if I claim someone in my community has raped me, the fair thing is for them to bar both of us?

That's what's called a legal attack, using social infrastructure to cause harm in a way people cannot realistically defend from. I get the desire to take action, but if we provide such automatisms, we incentivize false reporting, and that's rarely a good idea, for anyone.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

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From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/8/2013 5:52:20 PM

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ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
Basically the way they are talking about it. It isn't the way someone who was traumatized would do it. It is, however, the way someone who was angry would do it.

How would you know that, LL? Ishtar has said she's no expert - and I'm no expert either. Your level of confidence about this is a bit surprising to me, to say the least.

Ok, she may not have that experience, but I can tell you I definitely do. When I was raped with rohypnol, I couldn't talk to anyone. I was completely traumatized. I hid it from everyone and never reported it because I was afraid everyone would find out and everyone would look at me like I was dirty or a slut. To this day, my family does not know and most likely never will know. It took me years upon years to even talk about it at all and every once in awhile I still have nightmares from it even though it happened over 20 years ago now.

A few years later I was kidnapped and sexually assaulted and decided that time to report it to the police. They never investigated it and made me feel like I was the cause even though I was pregnant when it happened and was taken from my home. So once again, I was traumatized just by reporting it to the authorities and once again never told my family or friends.

It's one of the reasons I find it difficult to believe these women who are claiming rape. It seems more like they are angry over being taken advantage of or finding out they couldn't get him to be with them so they are making him out to look like a horrible man.

Unless, maybe they feel like the internet is their safe place to talk about it because of the anonymity but their group is not anonymous. Their group would know them. If it was me again, I'd be too ashamed to talk about it.

ETA: As for the accused not speaking up, I don't think it's a red flag at all. It could be he just feels it's no one's business or he just doesn't care what others think since there's been no police report against him. I could see him just rolling his eyes and thinking these girls are either jealous or angry with him for not getting their way or not playing in the way they wanted to play and now regretting being with him. It happens more than one would like to think. I remember when I was in my twenties, I would see lots of girls who would do shit like this and it always pissed me off. It was their way of getting back at an ex or because she regretted the one night stand when she got drunk.

< Message edited by littlewonder -- 5/8/2013 6:02:16 PM >

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/8/2013 6:07:36 PM

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ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
Yep. I suppose it depends at least in part on how you feel about the crime of rape. If I suspected a child molestation, or of an assault of a different kind . . . but come to think of it, even a theft . . . I think I'd feel a sense of duty to report it.

You know, I'd be all for this if it would be something that you KNOW. If you'd have some reason to make you honestly BELIEVE something was wrong. Some sign of evidence. Something.

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/8/2013 6:16:21 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
Yep. I suppose it depends at least in part on how you feel about the crime of rape. If I suspected a child molestation, or of an assault of a different kind . . . but come to think of it, even a theft . . . I think I'd feel a sense of duty to report it.

You know, I'd be all for this if it would be something that you KNOW. If you'd have some reason to make you honestly BELIEVE something was wrong. Some sign of evidence. Something.

Fat chance though, really, LP, of such evidence. The bottom line, for me, is that the issue of rape goes to a little closed world that the law can't effectively reach. In private, between somebody strong, and somebody not so strong. Me, I don't know how I'd put my life together if the people I wanted to go to bed with were a third bigger and stronger than me, and more aggressive with it. Thank god I'm not female. Bum deal, if you ask me.

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