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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/9/2013 7:31:18 PM   
UllrsIshtar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MsEloquence

You're the third person to assume I meant legally obligated. I really should have said "duty" or used a phrase about conscience.



I didn't say anything about assuming anything about legal obligation.

I consider the fact that you think "duty" is more appropriate to be worse.

My previous comment stands double if that's the case.

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/9/2013 7:45:38 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady


That, coupled with some men's inherent belief that women are delicate little flowers in need of men's protection.



I don't know. Me, I see a lot of women seeing vipers all around them amongst their own sex. Actually, it was a very strong and balanced sort of woman friend of mine who alerted me to this thread - and the way it was going - in the first place. Nothing of the delicate little flower about her whatsoever.

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/9/2013 9:00:08 PM   
LafayetteLady


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From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline 		There is no doubt, women can be tough on other women. But again, that's because we know better than men the tricks women will play. I have known many women who liked to play that "silly, delicate girl" routine, and watched the men eat that shit up like a man in the desert will drink water.

Women also tend to be more analytical than men when it comes to that stuff too. You can't say you haven't known women who have analyzed every nuance of a man's words and actions from a first date who never called again trying to figure out the clues.

There are certain things that people can't understand if they have never experienced it. They will react one of two ways. They will either be excessively sympathetic, or they will assume it isn't as bad as the person makes it out to be. For an innocuous example, migraines come to mind. If you have never had one, you simply can't understand the pain. That is also one that more often than not, people will tend to behave as though the sufferer is over dramatizing.

There are differences between men and women that the other just won't understand. Like men not understanding severe menstrual cramps. Some will be very understanding, offering heating pads, hot tea and tummy rubs, while others will not understand why you can't just "push through the pain." Now I'm not saying all men are one extreme or the other, just that the men who don't get it, really don't get it. With rape, because very few men have ever suffered sexual assault, and because most men are not bad overall, they are appalled that another man could do such a thing. This will make them not want to disbelieve a woman. Of course, there is also the subconscious knowledge that if they don't believe a woman, she is likely to turn on him. Again, this is not all men, but a good portion that I have seen over the years.

Women? Maybe because we have, over time, keyed in on men being dishonest with us that we will key in on the holes in a story.

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RE: What actions, if any, should I take? - 5/10/2013 5:09:06 AM   
kalikshama


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quote:

I never cease to be shocked by just how harsh women can be towards other women.


I'm not sure if you are including me in the harsh category or not. I was thinking about this last night and realized that I have higher expectations of women than of men. Blame it on the role models I had as a child ;)

(I'm sure my father was very competent at work and it's too bad there weren't Take Your Daughter to Work days back then.)

But seriously, do you think the proper way to handle your Domme saying "If you don't have sex with me I will kill myself" is to have sex with her and then DO NOTHING until much later when you claim you were raped by her?

Or to not object when your Domme violates your boundaries by kissing you on the mouth and SAY NOTHING until much later claiming you were sexually abused by her?

I've had sex with a woman who didn't want to have sex with me, but she didn't tell me this until much later. This was grossly unfair to me. (This was first thing in the morning - drugs/alcohol were not involved.)



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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/10/2013 5:38:26 AM   
chatterbox24


Posts: 2182
Joined: 1/22/2012
Status: offline 		Anyone who would answer an ad and attend a party for "gang bang sluts" is a total moron. The moment you walk into a situation like that you are "BEGGING TO BE RAPED" One is asking for serious abuse, doesn't take an Einstein to figure that out. Those kind of situations are ones, that will make even a normally very empathic person with tons of compassion, question the stability of a person with such a low judgment call, and to lose compassion. Even if they are at that party, get there, change their mind during interacting, and say no. Initially they are SAYING YES, treat me like a worthless piece of shit. Very hard to take someone seriously under those conditions when they cry rape.
Rape to me is when someone says no from the start, and keeps saying no. Not someone who says "yes" at the beginning, changes their mind half way thru and says no, the person stops the act, and then gets accused of rape? Ridiculous. Or saying yes and screaming no in their mind but not vocalizing it. Ridiculous again.
Real rape is where the victim tries to fight off their attacker, says no repeatedly, and is held down against their will. You cant accuse someone of rape, if you just lay there, and blame someone else for ones total lack of being strong enough to say NO and fight. Let me reword that, You can accuse someone of raping you in that instance, but no one is going to take you seriously.
I was almost raped once, I agreed to a kiss. I began saying no when he pinned my arms above my head, and starting going further, his response was " come on baby you want this" and never missed a beat, he would have got the job done, if not for my sister walking in home early from work. What goes on in someone's mind during that is indescribable.


< Message edited by chatterbox24 -- 5/10/2013 5:42:19 AM >

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RE: What actions, if any, should I take? - 5/10/2013 6:11:53 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

quote:

I never cease to be shocked by just how harsh women can be towards other women.


I'm not sure if you are including me in the harsh category or not.


It was a general comment, Kalikshama - I had no-one particular in mind.

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/10/2013 6:28:54 AM   
MsEloquence


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quote:



UllrsIshtar
I didn't say anything about assuming anything about legal obligation.


Then I apologize for misunderstanding


quote:


I consider the fact that you think "duty" is more appropriate to be worse.

My previous comment stands double if that's the case.


What is your objection to the assertion that it's appropriate to tell the police when you believe a crime has been committed?

Why do you think that duties or obeying ones conscience is "worse" than obeying the law?


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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/10/2013 8:45:04 PM   
LadyPact


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Status: offline 		Hey, do we have any of those "I know this girl on the internet and she's been kidnapped" threads that somebody could pull up. You know the ones. Transported across state lines, held by some drug king pin, but she's still got computer and cell phone access?


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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/10/2013 9:10:39 PM   
littlewonder


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Status: offline 		Gawd I love those posts. They sometimes are the highlight of my week.


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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/10/2013 10:43:00 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline 		You mean other than "Tap, Tap, Tap," and "Looking for Cum Sluts?"

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/10/2013 10:49:53 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		Why not? Wasn't "tap, tap, tap" just all stuff we read on the internet? Let's see. Five deaf mutes held against their will? It's that a crime? Why didn't we all read that and report it?

It was a story we read on the internet. Nothing more.

Unless I'm mistaken, that's all this is to Steven. None of these women came to him and tried to elicit his help. These were threads he read about and heard some second hand information.

To state that a person should report a crime because of some words typed up on the internet is ludicrous.


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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/11/2013 1:27:43 AM   
LafayetteLady


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Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline 		Hey, I agree with you completely. Especially knowing how police would react to such a report. Then again, I'm one of those vicious females who feels that if these women aren't ready to file police reports, then they have no right telling anyone who will listen that this man raped them.

I'm not saying that some kind of sexual assault didn't occur, but if the women weren't willing to take action against the guy, why should they be so demanding that someone else does?

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/11/2013 4:01:38 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Hey, do we have any of those "I know this girl on the internet and she's been kidnapped" threads that somebody could pull up. You know the ones. Transported across state lines, held by some drug king pin, but she's still got computer and cell phone access?



Jesus, LP, are you really comparing this affair to that kind of thing?

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/11/2013 4:46:36 AM   
LadyPact


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Status: offline 		Only from the perspective of how people think a third party should report stuff to the authorities that they have read on the internet.


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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/11/2013 9:58:11 AM   
OsideGirl


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From: United States
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quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24

Rape to me is when someone says no from the start, and keeps saying no. Not someone who says "yes" at the beginning, changes their mind half way thru and says no
Withdrawing consent is withdrawing consent. It doesn't matter when it happens. If something continues after consent has been withdrawn, it is rape.


quote:

Real rape is where the victim tries to fight off their attacker, says no repeatedly, and is held down against their will. You cant accuse someone of rape, if you just lay there, and blame someone else for ones total lack of being strong enough to say NO and fight. Let me reword that, You can accuse someone of raping you in that instance, but no one is going to take you seriously.
How nice of you to determine that those couldn't fight back or were afraid to fight back, weren't really raped.


< Message edited by OsideGirl -- 5/11/2013 10:00:02 AM >

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/11/2013 10:35:07 AM   
angelikaJ


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quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24

Rape to me is when someone says no from the start, and keeps saying no. Not someone who says "yes" at the beginning, changes their mind half way thru and says no


Did someone teach you that men get to a certain point and then they 'just can't help themselves'?
In the event someone did, it isn't true.

Once she withdraws consent, it is rape, (or sexual assault, if things do not involve penetration).

She might consent to kissing... and then petting...and then heavy petting.
That does not mean she consents to everything or can't change her mind if it starts to feel wrong to her at any point.

edit to add:
quote:

Real rape is where the victim tries to fight off their attacker, says no repeatedly, and is held down against their will. You cant accuse someone of rape, if you just lay there, and blame someone else for ones total lack of being strong enough to say NO and fight. Let me reword that, You can accuse someone of raping you in that instance, but no one is going to take you seriously.


There are times when fighting is not a wise thing: if he has a weapon, for example.
So, if he has a weapon and she neither fights back or says no (because she fears harm) then it isn't rape?
There are times when someone is physically or emotionally incapable of fighting; I am sure you have heard of "fight or flight"?
There is a 3rd F: freeze. Some people freeze and can't move.

< Message edited by angelikaJ -- 5/11/2013 10:42:23 AM >

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/11/2013 10:54:39 AM   
SeekingTrinity


Posts: 1834
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From: The 'burbs of Portland, OR
Status: offline 		What OsideGirl and angelika said times infinity!

Whether you say yes in the beginning and change your mind partway in or whether you said no from the very start, once you withdraw consent...that's it, show is over! If someone continues past that point, it's rape no matter which way you try to justify it. No means just that...NO!

And not to be a bitch or anything, but the premise that real rape victims (as opposed to what? Fake victims? ) fight back is complete and total horseshit! It saddens me that victims of this horrific crime against their person has to either fit your criteria and standards or they don't get to be taken seriously. Who honestly died and gave you the power to make that determination?

< Message edited by SeekingTrinity -- 5/11/2013 10:55:50 AM >

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/11/2013 11:11:35 AM   
theshytype


Posts: 1600
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From the details I've read (and only based on those) I cannot say rape was involved. I also can't say it wasn't.
I don't agree with a third party reporting rape and believe that should only be up to the victim.
If anything, I believe that the examples given by said victims could be used to help teach newbies of possible situations they could come across and to use their common sense - not to out anyone, just given as 'hypothetical' situations.

As far as women being harsh towards other women...yeah, they tend to be. Not always, but a lot. That's why I usually feel more comfortable with men.

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/11/2013 11:15:39 AM   
RedMagic1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SeekingTrinity
And not to be a bitch or anything, but the premise that real rape victims (as opposed to what? Fake victims? ) fight back is complete and total horseshit!

Relevant: http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/193e3x/iama_sexual_assault_therapist_discussing_when/

This is a deep topic, and much more interesting to me than the OP, which I've already resolved in my own mind, though perhaps DarkSteven is now even more confused, who knows.

I don't think there's any one-size-fits-all response when it comes to rape. "Don't talk about it unless you're ready to make a police report," seems like an unrealistic standard, on the one hand, because the quality of law enforcement apparatus varies so widely, just in the United States alone, to say nothing of, for example, India. But on the other hand, making unsupported claims about someone across the internet isn't appropriate either. I think the only way to go is to judge case by case, with as much empathy as possible for everyone involved. And both men and women need to be responsible for their actions, and inactions. Communication (or lack thereof) is an action.

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/11/2013 11:44:49 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1
Relevant: http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/193e3x/iama_sexual_assault_therapist_discussing_when/


What a mess of horrors.

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