quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24

I need to reword what I said.
If someone is attacked against their will, and is being raped, actually fighting might just get them killed. THey are never given a chance to say no either. There is no question that is true rape.
SO I really was wrong about that comment, saying its not rape if one doesn't fight.

As far as withdrawing consent. If you say yes to sex, then change your mind in the middle, and it does stop, but the woman feels dirty or regretful, or doesn't feel it stopped quite fast enough, I don't feel its right to call it rape.
Its one word against another ones too, that's when it starts to get harder to define.

quote:

ORIGINAL: evesgrden


Think it? Feel it? Imply it???? I can't tell you how vehemently I disagree with that. You expect a man to be a mind reader? Holy crap.... That is SO off the rails to me.. and I'm someone who was assaulted, and force was used, and violence was used (stomped on my foot. broke my big toe, popped the nail off... I stopped fighting cuz I was out of my league.. live to fight another day and I did, but 'nuff about that).

So in your world, does every woman who's ever thought "geeze.. isn't done yet???" a victim of rape? If you're screwing doggy style how does he know you don't want to continue if you say nothing and continue fer chrisssake???

The thought police scare me.... WAY more than the guy who assaulted me.

And if someone's been "pressured" then press charges for extortion or coercion. While we have the hood up, that's my thinking on sexual harassment too.


Thinking or feeling "no"? ... my sentiment: no no no and no again; 9 ways to Sunday NO. Heavens, it's hard enough to figure out the truth when you have actual behavior to evaluate. Sorry, but that kind of thinking really scares me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar


When speaking of adults with their mental faculties in place, barring physical threat to their safety being present -like a gun or a knife being held to their head- people refusing to vocalize lack of consent are not raped, even if there is pressure in place like "I'll break up with you if you don't" or "you're a bad sub if you don't".
Actually, I explicitly mentioned psychological issues did play a part in the example provided.

Your opinion disgusts me.
What opinion is this? I'm not offering an opinion. I was simply answering someone's question about when rape does happen, as perceived by the victims, and it's not acknowledged by the legal system in *SOME* places. I did not voice an opinion in one way or another about how I felt about such legal grey areas. I just talked about the experiences of some individuals.

It's people like you, and opinions like that, which make it harder for people who are legitimately raped to come forward.
Oh? How is that? And again, these aren't my opinions. As a victim support provider, my training indicates that it does not make it harder for victims to come forward when individuals are understanding of the complexities a situation has. Because everything apparently needs spelled out, when I say "coming forward" I mean in any manner that the victims choose to do so, be it to the legal system or a support group or in counseling.

It's positions like that that breed a culture in which rape victims need to be quizzed about whether or not they actually refused consent or not.
I don't think that the rape counseling, crisis hotline and therapy culture is what contributes to questioning about the nature of such events. I'd be interested to see some research on your opinions about that, if they were derived from any.

It's that attitude that makes it dangerous for people to have sex with, or top, anybody, even after the other person has consented.
Actually, no it doesn't... verbal consent is legally sufficient. And it's advised to get consent verbally, just to be super clear that someone is consenting. There's really not a huge problem with just verbally discussing consent.

It's that refusal of personal responsibility for what you are ALLOWING to happen to you that makes threads like this happen, and speculation like this happen.
You can decide to believe that individuals are "allowing" certain non-consensual experiences to happen to them or not. But the idea that taking more personal responsibility would improve things doesn't invalidate the pain of the experience that was "allowed". And when I'm talking about rape and it's consequences these are largely from a therapeutic perspective. I believe me simply discussing what some victims perceive as rape but isn't illegal in some places was misconstrued as an opinion on the legality of said experiences. I did not voice an opinion in that direction, I merely said that it existed.

It's statements like that which muddle up the lines between rape victims and people refusing to be accountable for their own actions that cause legitimate rape to become a trivialized thing.
Again, I'd be very interested in what research you may have observed that made you think that acknowledging the grey areas in life contributes to their grey-ness. To observe a thing is not to create a thing.

You should be ashamed of yourself.
Well, I'm not. Instead I'm pretty well researched, well trained and compassionate toward others. And I'm proud of those things and proud of my many years as an activist, victims advocate and survivor speaker.

quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24
As far as withdrawing consent. If you say yes to sex, then change your mind in the middle, and it does stop, but the woman feels dirty or regretful, or doesn't feel it stopped quite fast enough, I don't feel its right to call it rape.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JustDragonflies

Lafayette Lady,

I was referring to this, at the bottom of the link.

"I thought “no,” but didn’t say it. Is it still rape?

It depends on the circumstances. If you didn’t say no because you were legitimately scared for your life or safety, then it may be rape. Sometimes it isn’t safe to resist, physically or verbally — for example, when someone has a knife or gun to your head, or threatens you or your family if you say anything."

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
However, most of the circumstances that get tossed about here are the "I didn't realize I could say no" type, or the morning after regret type.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JustDragonflies


It's that refusal of personal responsibility for what you are ALLOWING to happen to you that makes threads like this happen, and speculation like this happen.
You can decide to believe that individuals are "allowing" certain non-consensual experiences to happen to them or not. But the idea that taking more personal responsibility would improve things doesn't invalidate the pain of the experience that was "allowed". And when I'm talking about rape and it's consequences these are largely from a therapeutic perspective. I believe me simply discussing what some victims perceive as rape but isn't illegal in some places was misconstrued as an opinion on the legality of said experiences. I did not voice an opinion in that direction, I merely said that it existed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
So your "many years as an activist, victims advocate and survivor speaker" are somewhat incomplete and will encourage co-dependency if you rely solely on the woman's "feelings" to determine she was raped, and if you were on a rape hotline and someone called you with that kind of situation claiming she was raped (and didn't think so until she saw the guy the next morning, without a roofie being involved), then you should be prohibited from counseling survivors until you get more training, if at all.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

quote:

ORIGINAL: JustDragonflies


It's that refusal of personal responsibility for what you are ALLOWING to happen to you that makes threads like this happen, and speculation like this happen.
You can decide to believe that individuals are "allowing" certain non-consensual experiences to happen to them or not. But the idea that taking more personal responsibility would improve things doesn't invalidate the pain of the experience that was "allowed". And when I'm talking about rape and it's consequences these are largely from a therapeutic perspective. I believe me simply discussing what some victims perceive as rape but isn't illegal in some places was misconstrued as an opinion on the legality of said experiences. I did not voice an opinion in that direction, I merely said that it existed.

And this is where the current climate on therapy falls short. Yes, sometimes what you perceive is real, but if you "perceive" you were raped, doesn't mean you were. By that logic, if someone pinched your ass, you could claim you were raped, and because that is your perception, it makes it real, it doesn't, because while someone pinching your ass is certainly inappropriate, it isn't rape, not by a legal definition or one based in reality.
You're kind of using a straw man argument here with this "pinched your ass" concept. When I am discussing these topics I am referring to people who have expressed something that could reasonably be dealt with as "rape" and does actually legally fit the definition of rape SOMEwhere, such as penetrative sexual contact that was not consensual on their part and maybe or maybe not their partners knew it. Or situations of repeatedly abused women who don't have the ability to refuse anymore because of PTSD or etc. I'm talking about experiences of repeated incestual abuse where no stops being said. Do those next 234 times of rape not count? These are the kinds of nuances that I'm discussing.


Now certainly a woman with "morning after regret" can experience a great deal of shame over what she did, but to equate her with a rape victim? Definitely not. By doing so, you are enabling her to continue thinking she wasn't responsible for her own behavior.
Again, see above. I'm not discussing regret or feeling shame. I'm discussing legitimate nonconsensual sex that is more complicated than "he held me down and raped me" or "I was afraid he'd stop loving me so I chose to do it anyway but now I feel dirty." I have not seen an abundance of those kinds of claims, that's not even remotely what I was ever talking about.

So your "many years as an activist, victims advocate and survivor speaker" are somewhat incomplete and will encourage co-dependency if you rely solely on the woman's "feelings" to determine she was raped, and if you were on a rape hotline and someone called you with that kind of situation claiming she was raped (and didn't think so until she saw the guy the next morning, without a roofie being involved), then you should be prohibited from counseling survivors until you get more training, if at all.

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


I mean, I don't need a 'No' if a woman is screaming, or has started to push at me, or even if she just goes cold on me. I'm not entirely unable to read body language, even when red hot, hard as a rock and in the middle of 'the act'. It's not nice to stop, but it's a lot less nice to continue with a woman who doesn't want it (anymore).

I like to think I'm an intelligent and sensitive man, sure, but even a male dog can read body language. It doesn't take great brainpower and sensitivity. You certainly don't need to be some kind of psychic.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JustDragonflies


More of the "see above" stuff. I never said I relied on someone's feelings to determine, for her, that she was raped. I was and have always only been discussing or referring to individuals who view their experiences as sexual assault but which didn't fit the legal criteria for rape in *some* locations. The fact that it would indeed fit the legal definition of rape in other locations might give some indication that I'm talking to legitimate experiences of violation.

Further more, I never indicated or made a statement about what sort of therapeutic approaches might be taken in my opinion for the individuals who do fit the above criteria. People have continuously implied or outright stated they thought I might be discouraging accountability, and indeed that was not and never has been something I discussed. From the getgo.. I have ONLY been responding to one persons question about what I meant when I said sometimes rape doesn't fit the legal definitions in all locations.

Good grief.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

quote:

ORIGINAL: JustDragonflies


More of the "see above" stuff. I never said I relied on someone's feelings to determine, for her, that she was raped. I was and have always only been discussing or referring to individuals who view their experiences as sexual assault but which didn't fit the legal criteria for rape in *some* locations. The fact that it would indeed fit the legal definition of rape in other locations might give some indication that I'm talking to legitimate experiences of violation.

Further more, I never indicated or made a statement about what sort of therapeutic approaches might be taken in my opinion for the individuals who do fit the above criteria. People have continuously implied or outright stated they thought I might be discouraging accountability, and indeed that was not and never has been something I discussed. From the getgo.. I have ONLY been responding to one persons question about what I meant when I said sometimes rape doesn't fit the legal definitions in all locations.

Good grief.

Let me make this just a tiny bit easier for you. We are, at this moment, discussing what is rape in the United States. Not some middle eastern country that thinks of women as less chattel. So your *some* locations is pretty much bullshit.

The fact remains that just because a woman feels that she was sexually violated, if she didn't indicate, either by words or actions that her boundaries were being crossed, it isn't simply a matter of not fitting the legal definition of rape, it doesn't fit the literal definition either.

And actually all you ARE stating is your opinion, and using your experience as the reason for it. So trying to say it isn't your opinion is really a load of crap.

No one here has said that a woman may not suffer trauma, even when she is responsible for what happened to her. That doesn't make it qualify as sexual assault.

Good grief is right.

quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24

Anyone who would answer an ad and attend a party for "gang bang sluts" is a total moron. The moment you walk into a situation like that you are "BEGGING TO BE RAPED" One is asking for serious abuse, doesn't take an Einstein to figure that out. Those kind of situations are ones, that will make even a normally very empathic person with tons of compassion, question the stability of a person with such a low judgment call, and to lose compassion. Even if they are at that party, get there, change their mind during interacting, and say no. Initially they are SAYING YES, treat me like a worthless piece of shit. Very hard to take someone seriously under those conditions when they cry rape.
Rape to me is when someone says no from the start, and keeps saying no. Not someone who says "yes" at the beginning, changes their mind half way thru and says no, the person stops the act, and then gets accused of rape? Ridiculous. Or saying yes and screaming no in their mind but not vocalizing it. Ridiculous again.
Real rape is where the victim tries to fight off their attacker, says no repeatedly, and is held down against their will. You cant accuse someone of rape, if you just lay there, and blame someone else for ones total lack of being strong enough to say NO and fight. Let me reword that, You can accuse someone of raping you in that instance, but no one is going to take you seriously.
I was almost raped once, I agreed to a kiss. I began saying no when he pinned my arms above my head, and starting going further, his response was " come on baby you want this" and never missed a beat, he would have got the job done, if not for my sister walking in home early from work. What goes on in someone's mind during that is indescribable.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JustDragonflies

I was discussing things that differ from state to state in the US.

Again, perhaps helpful:
http://www.rainn.org/get-information/types-of-sexual-assault/was-it-rape

It seems that we're discussing different things or misunderstanding each other. But let us agree to disagree? It's always nice to have a discussion with someone about such a sensitive topic and it remain civil.

quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ

In another post, you use getting one's ass pinched as an example of not rape.
Of course it isn't rape, but it can fall under the umbrella of sexual assault.

That kind of thing is often not something that anyone asks permission to do; it falls under the social norm of violating personal space.

quote:


Let me give you another example: say a woman is raped by an acquaintance, fights him and says no...the whole bit. If there is another instance with the same guy, she may not say "No!" the second time; after all it isn't as if No meant anything last time.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JustDragonflies

I was discussing things that differ from state to state in the US.

Again, perhaps helpful:
http://www.rainn.org/get-information/types-of-sexual-assault/was-it-rape

It seems that we're discussing different things or misunderstanding each other. But let us agree to disagree? It's always nice to have a discussion with someone about such a sensitive topic and it remain civil.

quote:

Let me give you another example: say a woman is raped by an acquaintance, fights him and says no...the whole bit. If there is another instance with the same guy, she may not say "No!" the second time; after all it isn't as if No meant anything last time.