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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/31/2013 12:58:25 PM

vincentML

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Well errmmm . . . it is a Politics and RELIGION board after all, isn't it? So, now we are to stfu even on here? That is carrying oppression a step too far doncha think, Butch? Unbelievable. Imagine! People open their dumb asses mouth about their religion or lack of it on a Board dedicated to Religion. Who woulda thunk it?

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi
If you can't discuss a subject without the hate and contempt then maybe you should.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Please point out instances of hate and contempt I have shown towards religion or religious people. Otherwise, please refrain from poster character assassination.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

Butch was talking about posters who just cannot help themselves to proclaim their atheism and their contempt for those that believe in God and they attack on every thread.

You suggested that it is a Politics and RELIGION board after all, isn't it? So, now we are to stfu even on here? That is carrying oppression a step too far doncha think,

How terrible of me to suggest they be civil regardless of the forum name. If you think you fall into that group that's your perception.

You directed your remark to me. Now you try to weasel out of the slander. That makes it even more uncivil of you.

No need to apologise however. As I said above we hate the sin and love the sinner. We loves you, babes.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 5/31/2013 1:15:21 PM >

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/31/2013 12:59:35 PM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

I don't want someone trying to invoke a deity to change me to theirs or the deity's way of thinking.

Another mind-reader heard from.

K.

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/31/2013 1:11:56 PM

vincentML

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quote:

I didn't name names because of the rules here. You were not among them. You are able to conduct yourself like an adult. However, you aren't going to sit there and tell me with a straight face (not that I can see it, lol) that there aren't a number of atheists on this board who resort to the type of behavior we are talking about here.

There has been nothing 'straight' about me since even prior to puberty.

quote:

Those two things are vastly different. Why? Because atheists aren't prevented from running and they sure aren't losing their jobs for being atheist.

You conveniently ignore the court cases I cited regarding discrimination against atheists in 361. Nor do you address the atmosphere of discrimination I discussed there.

Furthermore:

"The constitutions of these seven US states ban atheists from holding public office:

Arkansas: "No person who denies the being of a God shall hold any office in the civil departments of this State, nor be competent to testify as a witness in any Court."[78]

Maryland: "That no religious test ought ever to be required as a qualification for any office of profit or trust in this State, other than a declaration of belief in the existence of God; nor shall the Legislature prescribe any other oath of office than the oath prescribed by this Constitution.”[79]

Mississippi: "No person who denies the existence of a Supreme Being shall hold any office in this state."[80]

North Carolina: "The following persons shall be disqualified for office: First, any person who shall deny the being of Almighty God."[81]

South Carolina: "No person who denies the existence of a Supreme Being shall hold any office under this Constitution."[82]

Tennessee: "No person who denies the being of God, or a future state of rewards and punishments, shall hold any office in the civil department of this state."[83]

Texas: "No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office, or public trust, in this State; nor shall any one be excluded from holding office on account of his religious sentiments, provided he acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being."[84]

An eighth state constitution discriminates against atheists by affording special protection to theists only.
Pennsylvania: "No person who acknowledges the being of a God and a future state of rewards and punishments shall, on account of his religious sentiments, be disqualified to hold any office or place of trust or profit under this Commonwealth."[85]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination_against_atheists#United_States

You are just plain wrong on the facts, LL. There are both insidious and blatant forms of discrimination against atheists afoot in the land. You can put lipstick on a pig but . . . .

< Message edited by vincentML -- 5/31/2013 1:12:48 PM >

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/31/2013 3:13:58 PM

DaddySatyr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

I don't want someone trying to invoke a deity to change me to theirs or the deity's way of thinking.

Another mind-reader heard from.

K.

I don't need to read minds to know I don't believe in someone else's god.

Peace and comfort,

Michael

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/31/2013 4:47:40 PM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

I don't want someone trying to invoke a deity to change me to theirs or the deity's way of thinking.

Another mind-reader heard from.

I don't need to read minds to know I don't believe in someone else's god.

That's very true. But you sure as hell do need to be a mind-reader to know that someone is praying to change you to their or their deity's way of thinking.

K.

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/31/2013 5:03:22 PM

DaddySatyr

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I didn't realize that there were states that had this kind of discriminatory bullshit in their constitutions.

However (there's always a "but". Right?), it's not a federal issue (although I agree it probably should be).

Since I am a new resident (2 months) to one of those states, I promise you - here and now - that I will do what I can to change that bit of discriminatory crap that is beneath any jurisdiction in this country.

Peace and comfort,

Michael

< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 5/31/2013 5:09:44 PM >

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/31/2013 5:12:26 PM

LafayetteLady

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

The people in your county put those people in office, including you.

But for a very short portion of my early life (ages 2-4 yrs.) I've never lived in Bergen County. I certainly wasn't old enough to vote and my only living relative (UB) that remains there votes AGAINST Blue Laws each time they appear on the ballot.

Don't blame me for religious extremists fucking with the constitution, thank you.

Peace and comfort,

Michael

So now you are complaining about an inconvenience that isn't even yours?

Religious extremists? I think you need to check the history on that one. Yes it was started for religious reasons, but certainly not be extremists. They might be considered so today, but then? Nope.

So all your relative is vote against it? Does he get involved in any kind of movement within the county to abolish it? I doubt it.

Complaining is what people do when they are too busy drinking a beer, watching their football game to get involved in making the changes they are so pissed about.

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/31/2013 5:18:16 PM

LafayetteLady

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

As for your "five day work week." That would completely close places down on the weekends. Or we would face discrimination suits from retail workers, restaurant/bar employees, grocery store employees, etc.

Not quite so easy to fix is it?

Except that a five day work week doesn't mean a business can't be open 24/7. It means their workers don't have to work more than 5 days per week, if they choose not to.

Before you talk about labor laws, the ones in place (for hourly employees) in NJ state that you can't be forced to work more than 12 hours per day or more than 6 days per week.

Of course, no businesses would break the law but, I'd bet you dollars to doughnuts (and I'm not a gambling man) that nine times out of ten, if a boss comes to an employee and says: "I know you've got 60 hours in already this week but, I really need you to come in on Saturday, too" and the employee declines more than a few times a year, the company would find some other "cause" to let that employee go.

I've seen it happen, all too many times to friends and family.

Peace and comfort,

Michael

Well, I'm quite aware of the labor laws in NJ. I'm also aware that in most lower paying industries, they mean nothing.

Here's the problem with your whole statement though. You want the businesses to be allowed to be open with a law that prevents employees from working more than 5 days a week. Then you go on to say how employees who are asked to work more and refuse, will be fired.

While we are talking labor laws in NJ, we are a employed at will state, so they don't need a cause to fire you. They can shit can you for being an atheist, me for being a Christian. They can't say that is the reason, because it is a protected class, and even for an atheist screaming that the laws don't protect them, I can guarantee you that in NJ, if you were fired specifically for being an atheist (instead of just being an asshat), you could sue and win.

Forcing companies to not be open one or even two days a week guarantees those employees wouldn't be fired for refusing to work more than 5-6 days a week.

Please try to figure out what it is you really want.

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/31/2013 5:20:58 PM

cordeliasub

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I think a lot of this boils down to the fact that bitter people cannot see anyone's point but their own.

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/31/2013 5:26:34 PM

Powergamz1

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The moment any state tries to enforce said wording, it becomes a federal issue.

Torcaso v Watkins.

w would directly violating the exact wording of the Constitution, not be a federal issue?

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

I didn't realize that there were states that had this kind of discriminatory bullshit in their constitutions.

However (there's always a "but". Right?), it's not a federal issue (although I agree it probably should be).

Since I am a new resident (2 months) to one of those states, I promise you - here and now - that I will do what I can to change that bit of discriminatory crap that is beneath any jurisdiction in this country.

Peace and comfort,

Michael

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/31/2013 5:42:54 PM

DaddySatyr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

So now you are complaining about an inconvenience that isn't even yours?

The inconvenience is mine when I'm visiting my uncle; especially now that I'm living even further away.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

Religious extremists? I think you need to check the history on that one. Yes it was started for religious reasons, but certainly not be extremists. They might be considered so today, but then? Nope.

More's the pity that they weren't considered extremists, since the new nation was formed with the ideal that the government wasn't supposed to do anything to establish a religion. How quickly the religious extremists of 1854 were to throw away the new-found freedoms of their new nation!

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

So all your relative is vote against it? Does he get involved in any kind of movement within the county to abolish it? I doubt it.

Yes, my 74 year old, cancer survivor, Parkinson's-stricken uncle should take to the streets, immediately (and I'll tell him the idea came from you). As far as "getting involved": he has been a member of the libertarian party in NJ since there was a libertarian party.

He marched in opposition to the draft, when you were in diapers. He put his money where is mouth was in many ways and he is partially responsible for you to be to hurl your drivel at me by way of the machines we're using.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

Complaining is what people do when they are too busy drinking a beer, watching their football game to get involved in making the changes they are so pissed about.

I don't drink beer and I do a lot more than complain but, you keep picking that scab, honey. You're good at it.

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/31/2013 5:46:39 PM

DaddySatyr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

... They can shit can you for being an atheist, me for being a Christian. ...

I'm an atheist? You really are clueless. I'm done talking with someone that can't even figure out where I stand when it comes to a deity.

Peace out, honey.

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/31/2013 5:50:03 PM

LafayetteLady

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

That said, I would find it hard to regard someone going ahead and praying for me to be rude, even if I've asked them not to. It would seem a little churlish to be irritated by someone's genuine desire to see good happen to me.

It does, rather, depend on what it is they're praying for.

If they're praying to god to enlighten me to the "truth" that homosexuality is evil and women are property then - they can fuck right off, but on the whole if I ever become aware that someone of faith is praying for me, it gives me quite a boost.

Which is interesting of course, because that boost might be the one thing that gets me over whatever it is.

So, much as my atheist teeth might grind, prayer can work...

The people praying for the salvation of your damned soul don't tell you, lol.

The reality is that when people say they will pray for you, that is typically what they are praying for; good things for you. Keep in mind this is typically after someone has expressed that they are going through some difficulty.

Funny thing though. Ishtar doesn't seem to have the slightest problem with the Pagans and the Wiccans et al. lighting candles and sending positive energy through the world to her. So in reality, it really is a problem with Christians and God.

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/31/2013 5:52:30 PM

LafayetteLady

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Missdressed

If the people doing the praying are doing it from a kindness of their heart perspective, then I'd feel not in the least offended. Like if I was ill and someone prayed for me.

If, however, they are praying for me to see the error of my ways and convert then they can get themselves a taxi. To the far side of fuck. One way.

For the record, the "praying for" that is being discussed WAS about a specific issue that was going on at the time. Definitely NOT the "save you from your ignorance" kind of thing. Although I'm beginning to wonder whether or not that might be necessary as well.

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/31/2013 6:24:47 PM

UllrsIshtar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

The people praying for the salvation of your damned soul don't tell you, lol.

Oh my, we're heavy with the assumptions today.

I've had several people tell me just that since moving to the US.

Never before though...

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

Funny thing though. Ishtar doesn't seem to have the slightest problem with the Pagans and the Wiccans et al. lighting candles and sending positive energy through the world to her. So in reality, it really is a problem with Christians and God.

Again, what a marvelous assumption you make there.

Now show me something, ANYTHING that I've said that would even imply that such is my position on this.

If you can't apologize for misrepresenting my position, and assuming that you can speak for me.

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/31/2013 6:27:36 PM

UllrsIshtar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

For the record, the "praying for" that is being discussed WAS about a specific issue that was going on at the time. Definitely NOT the "save you from your ignorance" kind of thing. Although I'm beginning to wonder whether or not that might be necessary as well.

Again an assumption.

The praying for that's being discussed is the general instance of somebody insisting to continue to push their believes on somebody who has requested not to do that.

The fact that you, after the discussion started, dragged one instance that happening between you and I in as an example doesn't mean that that specific instance is what is being debated here.

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/31/2013 6:35:02 PM

dcnovice

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quote:

When somebody says "I'll pray for your" they say: "I will evoke my deity on your behalf to fix the problems in your life for you that I think needs to be fixed". They're basically saying: "I'll fix you to the standards *I* feel yo need fixing".

Sorry, if somebody says "I wish you an enjoyable season" instead of "Merry Christmas" I'll take both in good spirits. If somebody says "I'll fix you" I don't care if it's said in that format or under the presence of prayer, I'll still feel offended, because it implies self-entitment to judge me and force a fix on me.

It's unbelievable rude.

Oh my.

My usual formulation is to tell someone that s/he is in my thoughts and prayers. No one's ever voiced any objection, but perhaps they've been seething without my knowing it.

Sometimes I actually do remember to pray for the person (if it's one of my praying periods); sometimes I don't. When I do, it's pretty simple, using a variation on a collect in the Book of Common Prayer: "I place ___ into your tender care for this life and the life to come, hoping and trusting that you are doing for us things greater than we can desire or pray for." Now and then, I also ask God to give the person whatever s/he needs, which God knows better than I. I try to avoid giving God instructions.

Is that rude? I sure hope not. Does intention/sincerity matter? I've also discovered, as I've weathered various travails including my recent oncological adventures, that people will sometimes say things that don't resonate for me. Indeed, they may sound downright boneheaded. At that point, I have two options: (a) I can look past/through the words and draw in the love lying behind them, or (b) I can get pissed off and milk as much resentment as I can swallow out of the person's phrasing.

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/31/2013 6:38:07 PM

dcnovice

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quote:

Especially when praying after specifically being requested not to do so

I've never received that request. If I did, though, I would honor it.

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/31/2013 6:53:58 PM

UllrsIshtar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

Is that rude? I sure hope not. Does intention/sincerity matter?

From American's I've come to take it as not rude, because I do think that intention counts.
It's simple not viewed as inappropriate here, and therefore I don't expect people to anticipate that I may find it offensive.

However, coming from a native born Belgian, I would consider it rude, regardless of their intent, because culturally it's just very much not accepted for Belgian to confront others with your believes unasked.
Coming from an American, I understand and keep in mind that there is a cultural difference, so I don't write it off as them necessarily being rude if they don't make a scene upon my requesting not to be prayed for. I still, however, consider it a rude habit. I just don't think that the intent to be rude is there.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

Especially when praying after specifically being requested not to do so

I've never received that request. If I did, though, I would honor it.

That would have been my next questions to you.

I have had several people refuse that request by insisting to my face that they will pray for me whether I want it or not, and that now they'll also pray for God to make me see the light of prayer, and have had people get totally offended and pissed with my simple "please, I'd prefer it if you don't" response.

I don't even much care if the request is honored or not, considering that I really don't have a way of checking. What I do care about is that me indicating that I prefer not to partake in their religious ceremony is accepted, and the other person then stops pushing their religious ceremonies in my face.

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I am your sinner
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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/31/2013 7:54:28 PM

LafayetteLady

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

So you declare. Others have a very different opinion. I wonder how you'd feel if it was Christians that could be fired for being Christian.
http://www.alternet.org/story/151241/10_scariest_states_to_be_an_atheist

Here's the problem with your whole premise. First and foremost, why does your employer KNOW about your religious beliefs? It's none of his business. This isn't "hiding" it. It's none of his business if you spend your time off going door to door trying to convert people to Christianity either. Now if you are stupid enough to start spouting atheist bullshit or "you must be saved" bullshit at work, the responsibility falls on you.

Some parents tell their children it is unacceptable for them to marry an atheist. So? Catholic parents want their children to marry other Catholics, Jews to marry Jews, Greeks (they are among the worst!) MUST marry other Greeks, Italians to Italians, so on and so forth. This isn't bigotry or discrimination any more than someone not being attracted to someone who is overweight is. For the record, no, were I to ever re-marry, it wouldn't be to an atheist. I could theoretically become good friends with one, but not for a life partner. Our beliefs are too conflicting and it wouldn't work. Not because of the whole, "oh I wouldn't see him in the afterlife" either. It wouldn't work in THIS life.

The article in your link talks about bus billboards (probably not the right name, but I'm sure you know what I mean) being vandalized. Like Christian ones wouldn't be? Or those for the NAACP? Or simply advertising the latest television show? Vandalism happens, it is not discriminatory. I have seen Pentagrams on religious advertisements. I think it is heinous, but I also have the intelligence to know it wasn't some Satanic group trying to make a statement, but rather some kid who thought it would be funny. That kind of vandalism is all about what will get the group advertising the most upset.''

And the whole custody thing? Gee, written by a pissed off father. Very objective. On that one, I can tell you what the law is, generally in every state. When a couple weds and has children, there has usually been an agreement on how the child will be raised from a spiritual standpoint. Yes, that typically involves a religion, go figure. So if they divorce, and the one parent decides that they no longer believe, they are SOL. It doesn't matter if they are atheist or not. If a Christian woman married a Jewish man and agreed to raise the children Jewish, she doesn't get to change her mind when they divorce.

While the article did point out questionable incidents, it was far from objective, since it was written by an atheist with an ax to grind.

Not every discrimination incident is a civil rights issue. Sorry.

But once again, while I am not an atheist, I do believe in their right to be so. I also expect them to be respectful of my choices as well, and quite frankly, I've found they rarely are. And lest you forget, I'm not running around trying to convert anybody, that just isn't my calling. I don't even bring up my faith to people unless the discussion turns to faith. But when I do, I don't try to demean another's beliefs because they are different than mine. Yet, I have seen over and over on this board people be demeaning for no other reason than someone's belief in God. So yes, I will call them atheist assholes. Whether you join that group is completely up to you.

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