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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/31/2013 8:02:53 PM

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From: Northern New Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
Bergen County is the only county in NJ that still has restrictive Blue Laws. In the rest of the country, it is basically limited to alcohol and car sales, and some stores not being able to open before noon.

How are any blue laws acceptable? Why should my economic activity be legally restricted to protect the religious sensibilities of others?

Consider this observant Jews close there businesses from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday (actually earlier than that on Friday so they can get home before sundown but you get the idea). Chik-fil-a closes on Sunday because the owner of the company is a devout Christian. That is fine. But some store legally not being allowed to open at all or until a certain time or being restricted on how many employees they can have in the business is a violation of the First Amendment and should be done away with.

As I have said before in this thread, while on the religious grounds I agree with you, I still believe that businesses should be required to be closed certain times. There are businesses that work their employees to death without any time off, regardless of whether the law permits it or not. Closing those businesses guarantees those people time off. Unless you work or have worked in those businesses, you really don't grasp how difficult those people already have it. So I do view it as a way to protect some workers from abuse by their employers.

However, I wouldn't oppose people fighting to change them, if I had them in my area. Of course, in my area, the only one left is that car dealers can't sell cars on Sundays. Having a friend in that business, he's pretty grateful for that law, and he isn't terribly religious. So if some movement started to try to repeal them, I would ask him how he felt about it and act accordingly. If he preferred I supported them remaining closed, I would do so. But for me personally, I don't really care. Our Walmarts aren't allowed to be open 24 hours a day due to some local ordinances, and I really wished they were. But not enough to do anything about it. And that's really my point. Those complaining about those laws, pick up your pen and start writing. Start groups against them. DO something for fuck's sake. The whining about it while sitting behind your computer makes me care even less.

(in reply to DomKen)

RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/31/2013 8:07:28 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

I didn't realize that there were states that had this kind of discriminatory bullshit in their constitutions.

However (there's always a "but". Right?), it's not a federal issue (although I agree it probably should be).

Since I am a new resident (2 months) to one of those states, I promise you - here and now - that I will do what I can to change that bit of discriminatory crap that is beneath any jurisdiction in this country.

Peace and comfort,

Michael

Sorry, FAIL. The 14th Amendment applies civil rights to actions of the States:

Its Due Process Clause prohibits state and local governments from depriving persons of life, liberty, or property without certain steps being taken to ensure fairness. This clause has been used to make most of the Bill of Rights applicable to the states, as well as to recognize substantive and procedural rights.

Its Equal Protection Clause requires each state to provide equal protection under the law to all people within its jurisdiction. This clause was the basis for Brown v. Board of Education (1954), the Supreme Court decision which precipitated the dismantling of racial segregation in United States education, and for Reed v. Reed (1971), where the Supreme Court struck down a law based on gender (with no "rational relationship to a state objective"[2]) — the first such application based on sex[3]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

(in reply to DaddySatyr)

RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/31/2013 8:11:28 PM

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At this point, I certainly can't remember what your questions or links were. Sorry. It isn't intentional. But this thread is a bit time consuming.

I did read about those laws in the various states. But here is my question: How many states invoke that law? It does make a difference. After all, some state still has the law on the books that men must run in front of the car while their wife drives to warn people, yet it isn't enforced (and would be seriously foolish of the men to do).

Honestly, I don't live in those states. I do my part in MY state in MY town to prevent these things from happening when I hear about them. That would include the rights of an atheist to run for office as much as it includes me doing everything in my power to prevent someone from my church running.

I will admit that there are indeed some acts of discrimination happening, but I stand by my position that not every discriminatory act rises to the level of being a civil rights violation. And while someone (DomKen?) believes that not all civil rights violations have something to do with the law, I am going to continue to disagree. Since civil rights only exist because of laws regarding them, if they aren't a civil rights violation in the "legal" sense, then they aren't a civil rights violation.

Am I an anomaly? Before reading some other posts on this thread, I would have said yes. Now, I'm not so sure.

(in reply to vincentML)

RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/31/2013 8:13:36 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cordeliasub

I think a lot of this boils down to the fact that bitter people cannot see anyone's point but their own.

Excellent point, cordelia! And I think on that note, I shall exit this thread. It takes far too much of my time. For those who I was having legitimate, intelligent conversations with, if you care to continue through email with me, that's fine. If not, that's fine too. But I'm out of here.

(in reply to cordeliasub)

RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/31/2013 8:21:56 PM

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quote:

As I have said before in this thread, while on the religious grounds I agree with you, I still believe that businesses should be required to be closed certain times. There are businesses that work their employees to death without any time off, regardless of whether the law permits it or not. Closing those businesses guarantees those people time off. Unless you work or have worked in those businesses, you really don't grasp how difficult those people already have it. So I do view it as a way to protect some workers from abuse by their employers.

Really? You want government to regulate the hours that business can operate for the health and safety of employees? Can you cite examples in labor law where this was done? Where the government dictated the business hours? Why kind of socialist thinking is that?

"Corporations are people too, my friend." ~ a certain 2012 presidential candidate.

(in reply to LafayetteLady)

RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/31/2013 8:34:26 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

I didn't realize that there were states that had this kind of discriminatory bullshit in their constitutions.

However (there's always a "but". Right?), it's not a federal issue (although I agree it probably should be).

Since I am a new resident (2 months) to one of those states, I promise you - here and now - that I will do what I can to change that bit of discriminatory crap that is beneath any jurisdiction in this country.

Peace and comfort,

Michael

Emphasis YOURS

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Sorry, FAIL. The 14th Amendment applies civil rights to actions of the States:

Its Due Process Clause prohibits state and local governments from depriving persons of life, liberty, or property without certain steps being taken to ensure fairness. This clause has been used to make most of the Bill of Rights applicable to the states, as well as to recognize substantive and procedural rights.

Its Equal Protection Clause requires each state to provide equal protection under the law to all people within its jurisdiction. This clause was the basis for Brown v. Board of Education (1954), the Supreme Court decision which precipitated the dismantling of racial segregation in United States education, and for Reed v. Reed (1971), where the Supreme Court struck down a law based on gender (with no "rational relationship to a state objective"[2]) — the first such application based on sex[3]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

I find it amusing that you emphasized one part you wanted to "pick a fight with" but you glossed over the parenthetical, right after it. Agenda much?

Anyway, I reject your assertion of the 14th because of the 10th (well, and the 1st). The federal government specifically seperates itself from religion in the 1st. Then, it goes on to say the 10th.

The constitution specifically states that the federal government doesn't want the "right" to flex its muscle over religion then, it goes on to say that any rights not taken by the federal government are retained by the states. In order, even (which helps me with my CDO).

Peace and comfort,

Michael

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(in reply to vincentML)

RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/31/2013 8:55:49 PM

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quote:

I find it amusing that you emphasized one part you wanted to "pick a fight with" but you glossed over the parenthetical, right after it. Agenda much?

Specifically, what did I gloss over?

quote:

Anyway, I reject your assertion of the 14th because of the 10th (well, and the 1st). The federal government specifically seperates itself from religion in the 1st. Then, it goes on to say the 10th.

It really doesn't matter what you reject. The Supreme Court has disagreed with you.

The incorporation of the Bill of Rights (or incorporation for short) is the process by which American courts have applied portions of the U.S. Bill of Rights to the states. Prior to 1868 (passage of the Fourteenth Amendment of the Constitution's due process clause), the Bill of Rights was held only to apply to the federal government. Under the incorporation doctrine, most provisions of the Bill of Rights now also apply to the state and local governments.

Prior to the ratification of the Fourteenth Amendment and the development of the incorporation doctrine, the Supreme Court in 1833 held in Barron v. Baltimore that the Bill of Rights applied only to the federal, but not any state governments. Even years after the ratification of the Fourteenth Amendment, the Supreme Court in United States v. Cruikshank (1876) still held that the First and Second Amendment did not apply to state governments. However, beginning in the 1920s, a series of United States Supreme Court decisions interpreted the Fourteenth Amendment to "incorporate" most portions of the Bill of Rights, making these portions, for the first time, enforceable against the state governments.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incorporation_(Bill_of_Rights)

(in reply to DaddySatyr)

RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/31/2013 9:07:27 PM

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From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

I find it amusing that you emphasized one part you wanted to "pick a fight with" but you glossed over the parenthetical, right after it. Agenda much?

Specifically, what did I gloss over?

quote:

(snip)

it's not a federal issue (although I agree it probably should be).

Like I said; the parenthetical part.

Further, you didn't even take notice of something I rarely do; I made you a personal promise:

quote:

Since I am a new resident (2 months) to one of those states, I promise you - here and now - that I will do what I can to change that bit of discriminatory crap

Just in the interests of consistency.

Peace and comfort,

Michael

< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 5/31/2013 9:09:25 PM >

_____________________________

A Stone in My Shoe

Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

(in reply to vincentML)

RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/31/2013 9:16:40 PM

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The constitution specifically states that the federal government doesn't want the "right" to flex its muscle over religion then, it goes on to say that any rights not taken by the federal government are retained by the states.

Nope, not in the USA. You've already been given one controlling Supreme Court ruling that explicitly extends the dictates of Art VI regarding religion to the states, there is no such 'we declare hands off' condition set. The 10th Amendment has zero power to overrule either the body of the Constitution, or the 14th Amendment.

< Message edited by Powergamz1 -- 5/31/2013 9:17:41 PM >

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 6/1/2013 7:40:53 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

[blah blah snipped]

The people praying for the salvation of your damned soul don't tell you, lol.

Sneaky theist fuckers!

quote:

The reality is that when people say they will pray for you, that is typically what they are praying for; good things for you. Keep in mind this is typically after someone has expressed that they are going through some difficulty.

Yes, that's been my experience so far. And knowing that someone gives enough of a crap about me to pray for me is actually very nice, and I don't care "how" it works - it gives me a lift.

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 6/1/2013 12:43:43 PM

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quote:

Yes, that's been my experience so far. And knowing that someone gives enough of a crap about me to pray for me is actually very nice, and I don't care "how" it works - it gives me a lift.

I dunno how you can have any confidence or feel good about prayers to a God who cannot even control a tornado or two in Oklaholma and prevent the needless death of innocent children. Either he can't help or he aint listening and don't care. In any case, good luck counting on prayer.

(in reply to crazyml)

RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 6/1/2013 1:28:11 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

I dunno how you can have any confidence or feel good about prayers to a God who cannot even control a tornado or two in Oklaholma and prevent the needless death of innocent children. Either he can't help or he aint listening and don't care. In any case, good luck counting on prayer.

Still an atheist here but it's God's fault that people (the only creature to walk the planet that has the power of reason), *choose* to live in these places. Or in beach homes, or on flood plains or adjacent to volcanoes or geographical faults etc? Ok, not everyone does actually have a lot of choice on their particular circumstances but the majority do....

That "reason" is what sets us apart from all the other animals who live solely by instinct. Dare I suggest it's a gift from God - the ability to choose many of your own circumstances? Thus freeing up God to be off helping some millionaire golfer sink that clutch putt in the big tournament....

Focus.

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(in reply to vincentML)

RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 6/1/2013 1:55:01 PM

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quote:

knowing that someone gives enough of a crap about me to pray for me is actually very nice, and I don't care "how" it works - it gives me a lift.

That's good to hear. That's always my hope when I tell someone s/he's in my prayers.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to crazyml)

RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 6/1/2013 4:10:31 PM

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Agreed.^^^
I'm not meaning it forcefully, just that I'm sending good things their way or praying for the best.

< Message edited by TNDommeK -- 6/1/2013 4:11:20 PM >

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 6/1/2013 5:01:04 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

I dunno how you can have any confidence or feel good about prayers to a God who cannot even control a tornado or two in Oklaholma and prevent the needless death of innocent children. Either he can't help or he aint listening and don't care. In any case, good luck counting on prayer.

Still an atheist here but it's God's fault that people (the only creature to walk the planet that has the power of reason), *choose* to live in these places. Or in beach homes, or on flood plains or adjacent to volcanoes or geographical faults etc? Ok, not everyone does actually have a lot of choice on their particular circumstances but the majority do....

That "reason" is what sets us apart from all the other animals who live solely by instinct. Dare I suggest it's a gift from God - the ability to choose many of your own circumstances? Thus freeing up God to be off helping some millionaire golfer sink that clutch putt in the big tournament....

Focus.

Is it God's fault or yours that that last paragraph made me spit my coke zero onto my screen lol.

Of course, I know for sure that God is an Auburn fan, so I don;t have to pray that they will beat Bama. If Bama wins, that is an example of God's mercy

(in reply to Focus50)

RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 6/1/2013 6:27:59 PM

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God's Mercy, my Irish ass!

When God stopped being a Notre Dame fan (The year Flutie whooped their ass with BC), he switched to 'Bama!

Roll Tide!

Michael

Attachment (1)

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Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

(in reply to cordeliasub)

RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 6/1/2013 6:38:38 PM

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God is clearly a saints fan.

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 6/1/2013 10:37:57 PM

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Well, when praying for the poor ignorant heathens doesn't work, there's always the Inquisition, hmmm?

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

quote:

ORIGINAL: Missdressed

If the people doing the praying are doing it from a kindness of their heart perspective, then I'd feel not in the least offended. Like if I was ill and someone prayed for me.

If, however, they are praying for me to see the error of my ways and convert then they can get themselves a taxi. To the far side of fuck. One way.

For the record, the "praying for" that is being discussed WAS about a specific issue that was going on at the time. Definitely NOT the "save you from your ignorance" kind of thing. Although I'm beginning to wonder whether or not that might be necessary as well.

_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

(in reply to LafayetteLady)

RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 6/2/2013 1:00:22 AM

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Gosh vince,

I thought I'd done a really good job of explaining my POV, and yet here you go misrepresenting it.

Are you deliberately misrepresenting it to make some kind of point, or are you struggling to understand what it was I was saying?

< Message edited by crazyml -- 6/2/2013 1:02:38 AM >

_____________________________

Remember.... There's always somewhere on the planet where it's jackass o'clock.

(in reply to vincentML)

RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 6/2/2013 6:28:38 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

Gosh vince,

I thought I'd done a really good job of explaining my POV, and yet here you go misrepresenting it.

Are you deliberately misrepresenting it to make some kind of point, or are you struggling to understand what it was I was saying?

Guess I didn't understand your pov. Sorry about that.

(in reply to crazyml)

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