A few questions about gun control... (Full Version)

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jlf1961 -> A few questions about gun control... (6/1/2013 6:27:47 PM)

In the years following world war two, the Jews in Palestine were not allowed to have guns, as law set by the British who were in control of the region.

Yet the Jewish resistance movement had sten guns, rifles and a seemingly endless supply of ammo.



Anyone care to venture an opinion as to where the weapons came from?





DaddySatyr -> RE: A few questions about gun control... (6/1/2013 6:33:27 PM)

David Ben Gurion smuggled them in the cargo pockets of his khakis.



Peace and comfort,



Michael




jlf1961 -> RE: A few questions about gun control... (6/1/2013 6:37:26 PM)

Actually the answer involves lipstick tubes....




TheHeretic -> RE: A few questions about gun control... (6/1/2013 7:48:34 PM)

Didn't they invent the IED as well?




jlf1961 -> RE: A few questions about gun control... (6/1/2013 8:00:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Didn't they invent the IED as well?



The IED actually predates this period in history by about 50 years.




RottenJohnny -> RE: A few questions about gun control... (6/2/2013 12:26:58 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Didn't they invent the IED as well?


Well, they did invent zealotry. There's some irony for you.




TricklessMagic -> RE: A few questions about gun control... (6/2/2013 9:03:40 AM)

Actually having met a veteran of the 1948 war who was a Hagannah member, there's a wonderful set of tales. As to lipstick tubes, they were made of quality brass and as such they were formed into rifle cartridges. As so tons of lipstick tubes were imported into Israel. The Isaelis could make pistol cartridges for Sten guns and pistols but rifle cartridges were more difficult to make from scratch. Cartridge fabrication is very difficult to do but not impossible and if you have the time to make them you will. I learned how to make primers for berdan and boxer primed cartridges. It can be done by hand with simple tools but it's a pain in the neck and very time consuming.

Now the STEN, oh god the STEN. Most folks don't understand the concept of the "Tube Gun." Well STENs are ridiculously primitive Tube Guns. Little more than zip guns with open bolt firing mechanisims. The most complicated part of the STEN gun is the semi-auto select function for the firearm. The reality is that fully auto tube guns are easier to make than semi-auto tube guns. The semi-auto function requires the addition of more parts and precision fitting. America had it's own tube guns in the form of the Reising and M4 Grease Gun but that's another story.

Now where did the STENs come from in Israel, then Palestine? Simple really. Many places. There was one kibbutz that made a ton of them but the operation of manufacture was based well within the Jewish territories. The STENs barrels were rifled with simple sine bar rifling methods. Sine bar rifling apparatus can be made and housed in the home so long as someone understands geometry and has a method of drilling out and forming the small parts. Were these apparatus Pratt and Whitney machines, by god no. They were simple hand operated machines that were typically six feet by three feet, and some smaller. The cutting heads were anywhere from thirteen to twenty six pieces. All that was needed was bored out and reamed barrels which were typically supplied by specialized shops. There's a lot more to it but I doubt anyone really cares.

Now were guns smuggled into Israel, oh absolutely. The Hebrew 3rd Brigade (Division? I can't remember exactly) that fought for the British made up of Israeli Jews smuggled as much back as they could, and they also stole what they could as well which was pretty easy given that most of them resembled the English occupiers. The French funny enough were very helpful in supplying anti-tank and mortar weapons to the Jews.

Czech manufactured 8mm Mausers made their way to Israel by way of France and the Czech. Some Americans got guns over but they were rare and few. The vet I spoke with was from Virginia, Jewish, fought in Patton's 3rd Army, then moved to Israel where he lived till the eighties. His family mailed him a Colt 1911 after he moved to Israel with a few hundred rounds of ammo which he told me he used up in about two weeks of fighting in reprisal campaigns pre-1948 and then he could almost never get ammo for it that wasn't hand made by the local Hagannah. It got to a point where he traded it and carried a Poslih Radom 9mm which bore some resemblance to the 1911 as 9mm was more plentiful.

Under British occupation, under the threat of Arab violence, the nation of Israel was forged with steel and sweat, and tempered with luck.

Oh and to make a STEN, all you need is the same equipment it takes to make a bicycle the old vet told me. Having made my own semi-auto closed bolt STEN pistol (the parts kit came with a surplus rifled barrel) with little more than a dremel, drill press, and hand files, I believe him.




jlf1961 -> RE: A few questions about gun control... (6/2/2013 10:32:17 AM)

Trickless has shown the fallacy of total gun control.




Moonhead -> RE: A few questions about gun control... (6/2/2013 10:40:54 AM)

Can he demonstrate that this 3d printer design that's just been banned is going to be any more accurate or reliable than putting a cartridge in a block of wood and hitting the primer with a hammer and nail, though?




YN -> RE: A few questions about gun control... (6/2/2013 11:26:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Can he demonstrate that this 3d printer design that's just been banned is going to be any more accurate or reliable than putting a cartridge in a block of wood and hitting the primer with a hammer and nail, though?


My brothers and myself actually did that, with a block of hard wood and .22 cartridges, it functioned.

The better primitive weapon is two pieces of water pipe, the larger with an endcap assembled into a "trombone" and using a cartridge the proper size for the inner pipe. In our case, a 12 bore shotgun round in a 20 mm (3/4") steel water pipe, with a small rock taped over the primer.

Our father took a dim view of these experiments.




Moonhead -> RE: A few questions about gun control... (6/2/2013 11:33:32 AM)

Oh, I'm not arguing that that doesn't work: I'm just saying that'd be a lot cheaper and far less hassle than the 3d printer design, which looks a bit crap for what you'd spend on one of those fuckers.
As TRickless has pointed out, there's much easier ways of making a working gun than fucking about with those things...




jlf1961 -> RE: A few questions about gun control... (6/2/2013 11:37:02 AM)

In WW2, Filipino resistance fighters would make home made 12 gauge shotguns that they used effectively against the Japanese, killing a Japanese soldier, taking his gun and ammo, and passing the shotgun to the next resistance fighter.

Me, personally have an ace in the hole, a local machine shop with a rifling machine. Now granted the unit is old, but it still works.....




Moonhead -> RE: A few questions about gun control... (6/2/2013 11:40:53 AM)

The older the machine the better. There's less to go wrong with the purely mechanical devices.




YN -> RE: A few questions about gun control... (6/2/2013 11:49:44 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

In WW2, Filipino resistance fighters would make home made 12 gauge shotguns that they used effectively against the Japanese, killing a Japanese soldier, taking his gun and ammo, and passing the shotgun to the next resistance fighter.

Me, personally have an ace in the hole, a local machine shop with a rifling machine. Now granted the unit is old, but it still works.....


I will swear steel boiler pipe makes functional shotgun barrels. Our father only discovered our experiments when investigating where several boxes of his shotgun shells had gone.




TricklessMagic -> RE: A few questions about gun control... (6/2/2013 3:34:08 PM)

Was the 3D design actually banned? I know Defcad took down that particular design along with many others it had. But those files are all over the net.

The 3D pistol put out by Cody Wilson was a joke, but too many people give that guy way too much credit. After I saw his lower receiver failure with 5.7x28, me and about a dozen other gunsmith folks laughed and simply said to up the size of the rear end, and finally after a few more incarnations they finally did. Cody Wilson isn't a gunsmith, and has a very limited understanding of technical specs behind guns. All he's really done is draw a bunch of attention to 3D printing. Using my buddies, the one he got off Kickstarter from a startup, we've made dozens of functional magazines once we got the mag springs for it, or made the springs ourselves. We've made dummy fake guns to test the machines precision but we'd never use the printer to turn out an actual gun. We've made pneumatic air pistols that'll fire .223 projectiles, but we've yet to get the velocity over 800 fps. Using only plastics it's hard to really hard to get a resevoir that can really take a high PSI pressure. So I might eventually start incorporating metal CO2 cartridges into the design. But it can take months to proof a design given my buddy's schedule and I have to line up.

I'm waiting on my mine to arrive which should be soon. I'm working up a design for a single shot .22lr version that's about the size of a Desert Eagle XIX but I'm in no rush to test it and when I do I'll be a good twenty feet away behind a barrier wall made up two sheets of plywood with six inches of filler dirt. The firing mechanism is a simple single action system that cocks at the rear of the gun by using a sliding breach system. Simply put the round in the pulled back slide, push the slide forward and turn a switch to lock the slide in place. Pull the trigger and a cocked firing pin releases the striking the rim of the cartridge. Catastrophic failure is catching a hunk of plastic in your face. I've thought up some Steam Punk additions to make it even more fail safe but I'm months away from testing it.

I'm thinking a two piece modular system might make more sense for single shot purposes. It would allow for great concealability and the top part would serve as a fully self contained magazine and bottom part would merely serve as the firing mechanism. Putting the two pieces together would merely cock the firing pin in the lower half and the lower half would have a large rear side obstacle preventing the top part from flying off or moving on its own when under rearward force.





JeffBC -> RE: A few questions about gun control... (6/2/2013 3:48:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Trickless has shown the fallacy of total gun control.

Yes and no. he has demonstrated the fallacy of total governmental control but that fallacy is getting less and less true. What when there is NO WAY you could've made a STEN gun or any other type of gun without it being recorded and monitored by 24 video cameras in real time complete with facial recognition software? A complete surveillance state makes a complete control state possible.




YN -> RE: A few questions about gun control... (6/2/2013 4:07:31 PM)

If prisoners can manufacture submachine guns in prison, there is likely little that a government can do to completely prevent their manufacture by the public.

[image]http://static.fjcdn.com/large/pictures/5e/21/5e2167_4617554.jpg[/image]




BamaD -> RE: A few questions about gun control... (6/2/2013 4:31:52 PM)

Poslih Radom 9mm which bore some resemblance to the 1911 as 9mm was more plentiful.

Just an aside the Radom was a virtual duplicate of the m35 browning.




JeffBC -> RE: A few questions about gun control... (6/2/2013 4:35:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: YN
If prisoners can manufacture submachine guns in prison, there is likely little that a government can do to completely prevent their manufacture by the public.

Totalities seldom work with humans so I'd agree. But you can get terrifyingly close. Close enough that I'm unimpressed with arguments about what jewish gunsmiths pulled off in light of several decades of advancement in governmental control.




jlf1961 -> RE: A few questions about gun control... (6/2/2013 5:55:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Trickless has shown the fallacy of total gun control.

Yes and no. he has demonstrated the fallacy of total governmental control but that fallacy is getting less and less true. What when there is NO WAY you could've made a STEN gun or any other type of gun without it being recorded and monitored by 24 video cameras in real time complete with facial recognition software? A complete surveillance state makes a complete control state possible.



You mind telling me where in the US is government surveillance cameras are in private homes, private businesses, or even on private property. Hate to tell you this, but for that to happen the entire constitution would have to be thrown away.





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