quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

Also the medical examiner calling the scratches on the back of his insignificant and the result of likely a single blow on the concrete, not the many bashings he claims in his interview, both puts more doubt on his veracity but also casts doubts on his claim that a reasonable person would have feared for his life in the same situation.

Yeah. The ME hurt him; I think she went too far but I'm not sure the jury does. If I were O'mara I would have started my cross by giving every member of the jury a copy of the photo of Zimmerman with his grotesquely swollen nose, giving her the same photo, and saying: "Excuse me Doctor. I must be wrong but I thought I heard you say that GZs injuries were "extremely insignificant".

Now, were I him, I would be looking for every case I could find where men died being pounded by someone straddling them, paying particular attention to those whose external wounds were superficial. Having found them, and the relevant photos, I might recall her before calling my own medical experts. "Seriously, Doc, you called GZs injuries extremely insignificant, remember; yet the deceased from bumfuck in 1983, the poor sod whose picture you hold, died from such an attack and his exterior wounds were less pronounced that Georgie's"

And the game goes on

quote:

(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or

quote:

(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

Also the medical examiner calling the scratches on the back of his insignificant and the result of likely a single blow on the concrete, not the many bashings he claims in his interview, both puts more doubt on his veracity but also casts doubts on his claim that a reasonable person would have feared for his life in the same situation.

Yeah. The ME hurt him; I think she went too far but I'm not sure the jury does. If I were O'mara I would have started my cross by giving every member of the jury a copy of the photo of Zimmerman with his grotesquely swollen nose, giving her the same photo, and saying: "Excuse me Doctor. I must be wrong but I thought I heard you say that GZs injuries were "extremely insignificant".

Now, were I him, I would be looking for every case I could find where men died being pounded by someone straddling them, paying particular attention to those whose external wounds were superficial. Having found them, and the relevant photos, I might recall her before calling my own medical experts. "Seriously, Doc, you called GZs injuries extremely insignificant, remember; yet the deceased from bumfuck in 1983, the poor sod whose picture you hold, died from such an attack and his exterior wounds were less pronounced that Georgie's"

And the game goes on

The problem with that photo is the later images show the swelling went down dramatically by a couple of hours later. Noses swell when hit but the speed with which the swelling went down indicates it wasn't that much damage (and any good punch in the nose can break it, mine was broken by a single rather mild punch).


He won't because that doesn't change the reasonable man standard. You have to keep in mind Zimmerman cannot claim self defense because the attack could have caused death (he could have died simply from the fall, if he did fall) but the attack had to be such that the reasonable man would have feared imminent death or great bodily harm and the ME destroyed that.

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ORIGINAL: igor2003

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Then this is another matter where we are going to be in great disagreement, Michael.

Coulda, shoulda, woulda, but Zimmerman wasn't walking from his car to his apartment. He didn't just happen to be taking the same path. He was stalking the "fucking punk," I don't believe he had murder in his heart or mind, and I think he panicked when it turned ugly, but he made choices that ended with a young man dead.

Two weeks after the Zimmerman incident a man in NYC was killed, one punch head hit pavement he was dead. In his situation the next blow could be fatal regardless of Martins intentions.

And that is a risk that Zimmerman CHOSE to take when he profiled Martin, followed him, got out of his truck to chase Martin, ignored Neighborhood Watch protocols, and ignored the NEN dispatcher. But of course there are a lot of people in today's society that feel that Zimmerman shouldn't be held responsible for the death he caused by his own willful misconduct.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Look, let them acquit Zimmerman, so the country erupts in riots, so the investments in guns and ammo that all of use paranoid gun owners have made over the years will actually pay for themselves.

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

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ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
I mean the girlfriend who came across as sympathetic to the jury and made O'Mara look mean. Keep in mind this is not a bench trial but one in front of a jury. Defense lawyers who beat up witnesses the way O'Mara did have to find a way to appear to not be an SoB or the jury will ignore pretty much anything he has to say. So far O'Mara's attempt with the knock joke seems to be less than successful.

Also keep in mind the last witnesses the jury will hear are the prosecution's rebuttal witnesses and the last argument they will hear is the prosecutor and if he is any good at all his closing will be "Zimmerman lied about this, Zimmerman lied about that and Zimmerman lied about this other thing" and that will certainly be a major component in deliberations.

Intriguing. What you saw as a sympathetic witness, the rest of the country saw as at best, an idiot and at worst, an outright liar.

No, That is what most white people who have no contact with blacks who speak in dialect thought. The rest of us saw a pretty average, if not too bright, girl.

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ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
But Zimmerman isn't innocent..,he took out his gun and took a life. The jury is simply charged with deciding if it is murder or not. He didn't arrest, detain, he instigated the confrontation.

Odd how you can claim he instigated it after all this time. Instigation of a verbal confrontation is not something that should be met with violence. Violence, however, should be met with violence. Martin chose to attack. That's not how people behave in polite society.

There is no evidence that Zimmerman engaged in violence before firing the shot there is absolute proof that Martin did.
The most telling piece of evidence was that Zimmerman was glad when told the incident had been filmed.

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ORIGINAL: farglebargle

both 776.041(2)(a)

quote:

(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or

and 776.041(2)(b)

quote:

(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

both need to be true in order for Zimmerman to be able to use deadly force if he provokes the attack. In turn, the prosecution only needs to prove that one of them was not.

Given the testimony about how a reasonable person's assessment of the injuries Zimmerman sustained, it's pretty much over at this point.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

both 776.041(2)(a)

quote:

(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or

and 776.041(2)(b)

quote:

(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

both need to be true in order for Zimmerman to be able to use deadly force if he provokes the attack. In turn, the prosecution only needs to prove that one of them was not.

Given the testimony about how a reasonable person's assessment of the injuries Zimmerman sustained, it's pretty much over at this point.

well since you only quoted the parts of the statute you like, its hard to say BOTH need to be true

many laws state list conditions and in many of them any ONE of the conditons is enough to statisfy the evocation of that law...

while you MAY be right, without the full statue and seeing the exact wording, we just have to take you word for BOTH conitions need to be satisfied!

this is a classic example of "taken out of context"

quote:

ORIGINAL: igor2003

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

Also the medical examiner calling the scratches on the back of his insignificant and the result of likely a single blow on the concrete, not the many bashings he claims in his interview, both puts more doubt on his veracity but also casts doubts on his claim that a reasonable person would have feared for his life in the same situation.

Yeah. The ME hurt him; I think she went too far but I'm not sure the jury does. If I were O'mara I would have started my cross by giving every member of the jury a copy of the photo of Zimmerman with his grotesquely swollen nose, giving her the same photo, and saying: "Excuse me Doctor. I must be wrong but I thought I heard you say that GZs injuries were "extremely insignificant".

Now, were I him, I would be looking for every case I could find where men died being pounded by someone straddling them, paying particular attention to those whose external wounds were superficial. Having found them, and the relevant photos, I might recall her before calling my own medical experts. "Seriously, Doc, you called GZs injuries extremely insignificant, remember; yet the deceased from bumfuck in 1983, the poor sod whose picture you hold, died from such an attack and his exterior wounds were less pronounced that Georgie's"

And the game goes on

The problem with that photo is the later images show the swelling went down dramatically by a couple of hours later. Noses swell when hit but the speed with which the swelling went down indicates it wasn't that much damage (and any good punch in the nose can break it, mine was broken by a single rather mild punch).


He won't because that doesn't change the reasonable man standard. You have to keep in mind Zimmerman cannot claim self defense because the attack could have caused death (he could have died simply from the fall, if he did fall) but the attack had to be such that the reasonable man would have feared imminent death or great bodily harm and the ME destroyed that.

It's not only a matter of whether a reasonable person would or would not have felt like they were in grave danger. You also have to consider whether, with Zimmerman's knowledge of self defense laws is he simply claiming that he was in great fear because he killed someone and is trying to avoid the consequences. With all of his lies and altered statements, his credibility is definitely in question.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
I mean the girlfriend who came across as sympathetic to the jury and made O'Mara look mean. Keep in mind this is not a bench trial but one in front of a jury. Defense lawyers who beat up witnesses the way O'Mara did have to find a way to appear to not be an SoB or the jury will ignore pretty much anything he has to say. So far O'Mara's attempt with the knock joke seems to be less than successful.

Also keep in mind the last witnesses the jury will hear are the prosecution's rebuttal witnesses and the last argument they will hear is the prosecutor and if he is any good at all his closing will be "Zimmerman lied about this, Zimmerman lied about that and Zimmerman lied about this other thing" and that will certainly be a major component in deliberations.

Intriguing. What you saw as a sympathetic witness, the rest of the country saw as at best, an idiot and at worst, an outright liar.

No, That is what most white people who have no contact with blacks who speak in dialect thought. The rest of us saw a pretty average, if not too bright, girl.

BS, my next door neighbor is a black man, he hold BBQ's often with his black friends and I attend often... I can state flatly that the type of speech she discribed is NOT AVERAGE. my neighbor would just as soon bite his tongue off as speak like that.
the things she said and said he said is the verbage of common gutter trash regardless of race!

PS, no I do not live in the SUBURBS, I live deep in the inner city where you'd expect more of such behaior to exist!
also I am a plumber and I deal with black people almost every single day, and in some pretty rough areas too!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

The defense already got two witnesses to say you need no injuries at all to be able to act in self defense.

And the defense has a much more reputable medical expert lined up to tell the jury how full of crap the state's expert is.

quote:

ORIGINAL: igor2003

It's not only a matter of whether a reasonable person would or would not have felt like they were in grave danger. You also have to consider whether, with Zimmerman's knowledge of self defense laws is he simply claiming that he was in great fear because he killed someone and is trying to avoid the consequences. With all of his lies and altered statements, his credibility is definitely in question.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

A polite society doesnt act or react with violence? Just proving your statement wrong. Historically, wife beating, duels, rape were all a part of "polite society" unless you want to try and dismiss those as "something of the past". But I would hope you would not be that silly.

Here we go. Rape is a duel and a beaten wife is a robbed bank.

Riiiight.

You realize there was honor, code and protocol in a duel right? Some thug didn't just walk up and start beating someone's ass.

As for the rape and wife beating. This case is about neither. So that's irrelevant.

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
I mean the girlfriend who came across as sympathetic to the jury and made O'Mara look mean. Keep in mind this is not a bench trial but one in front of a jury. Defense lawyers who beat up witnesses the way O'Mara did have to find a way to appear to not be an SoB or the jury will ignore pretty much anything he has to say. So far O'Mara's attempt with the knock joke seems to be less than successful.

Also keep in mind the last witnesses the jury will hear are the prosecution's rebuttal witnesses and the last argument they will hear is the prosecutor and if he is any good at all his closing will be "Zimmerman lied about this, Zimmerman lied about that and Zimmerman lied about this other thing" and that will certainly be a major component in deliberations.

Intriguing. What you saw as a sympathetic witness, the rest of the country saw as at best, an idiot and at worst, an outright liar.

No, That is what most white people who have no contact with blacks who speak in dialect thought. The rest of us saw a pretty average, if not too bright, girl.

BS, my next door neighbor is a black man, he hold BBQ's often with his black friends and I attend often... I can state flatly that the type of speech she discribed is NOT AVERAGE. my neighbor would just as soon bite his tongue off as speak like that.
the things she said and said he said is the verbage of common gutter trash regardless of race!

PS, no I do not live in the SUBURBS, I live deep in the inner city where you'd expect more of such behaior to exist!
also I am a plumber and I deal with black people almost every single day, and in some pretty rough areas too!

St. Louis must be an odd city. here I hear black dialect all the time. I heard it growing up in Atlanta and heard it in D.C. when I lived there.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

And exactly what Supreme Court ruling added overcoming gossip to the 'fear for your life' standard on self defense again?

quote:

ORIGINAL: igor2003

It's not only a matter of whether a reasonable person would or would not have felt like they were in grave danger. You also have to consider whether, with Zimmerman's knowledge of self defense laws is he simply claiming that he was in great fear because he killed someone and is trying to avoid the consequences. With all of his lies and altered statements, his credibility is definitely in question.

quote:

ORIGINAL: igor2003

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

And exactly what Supreme Court ruling added overcoming gossip to the 'fear for your life' standard on self defense again?

quote:

ORIGINAL: igor2003

It's not only a matter of whether a reasonable person would or would not have felt like they were in grave danger. You also have to consider whether, with Zimmerman's knowledge of self defense laws is he simply claiming that he was in great fear because he killed someone and is trying to avoid the consequences. With all of his lies and altered statements, his credibility is definitely in question.

So you think a juror is automatically going to accept as truth anything and everything someone says either in a sworn statement or on the stand? If a person is shown to lie or be less than honest the jurors can decide whether to accept any, all, or none of what a witness has to say. Zimmerman has had numerous inconsistencies in his various statements. His NEN call and his video walk through doesn't match what he had to say during the video walk through the next day. He shot an unarmed teen and there is no reason to think he wouldn't lie about "being in mortal fear" in order to avoid proper and deserved punishment.