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RE: Why Arabs Don't Like the U.S. - 7/26/2013 11:19:29 AM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline
Right, so after dozen+ . pages - not a single cite by you to suggest that muslim theology is consonant with western civilzations.

So by your inability to provide a quote, a fatwah, or anything I'm consider it pretty much a given that your side can't defend your counter position. And your failure to address the question reflects on your honesty.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

Do I find the difference between Muslim culture and Muslim dogma difficult?

No, I've been pointing out the difference all these times you've flip flopped between the 2 as though they were a single monolithic thing, and all Muslims were clones.

But you are right on one point... sticking to reality, citing facts, using valid resources, and catching you contradicting yourself even in your own quotes...

Yeah, that's about all I've got.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Oh posh.

Do you really find that unclear? Really??? Especially since I gave numerous examples of what muslim theology stands for? Death to apostates and idolators. Lack of religious freedom. Bow ties forbidden. Dancing forbidden. Music Forbidden.

How about you answer the question asked 23 times now - instead of searching pages and pages of quotes for wordings that support your nvective.

IS MUSLIM THEOLOGY consonant with western civilization?

Look man- why don't you just admit you have no intention of answering the question? You can't defeat the premise with quotes, with logic so you pound the table quibling if "the values espoused in muslim theology" is the same as "is muslim theology".

Really? Thats the *best* you've got?






quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

Which question is that again?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


Do you think the values espoused in the Muslim religion are consonant with western civilization. Yes or No?
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4499778


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Sorry still here. Still posting the same answers which you will ignore again. Once again I am not interested in values. The question - now repeated for the 22nd time. Is muslim theology consonant with western civilization.

I told you were free to use any mainstream Islamic theology. For example, Sunni, Sufi, Druze, Shia.
I told you were free to use any G-7 civilization.

You've distorted, avoided, mixed the question - and basically flat out chose not to answer the question asked.

Have a nice day.



So which is it again? Values or theology? Culturally don't allow music and dancing, or fanatic zealots use religious dogma to ban those things?

Who to believe, who to believe?

You aren't even trying to keep up the appearance of honesty.






(in reply to Powergamz1)
Profile   Post #: 281
RE: Why Arabs Don't Like the U.S. - 7/26/2013 11:22:06 AM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline
Yeah - your "all the times" is a single variation of wording.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1.
No, I've been pointing out the difference all these times you've flip flopped ...
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Oh posh.

Do you really find that unclear? Really??? Especially since I gave numerous examples of what muslim theology stands for? Death to apostates and idolators. Lack of religious freedom. Bow ties forbidden. Dancing forbidden. Music Forbidden.

How about you answer the question asked 23 times now - instead of searching pages and pages of quotes for wordings that support your nvective.

IS MUSLIM THEOLOGY consonant with western civilization?

Look man- why don't you just admit you have no intention of answering the question? You can't defeat the premise with quotes, with logic so you pound the table quibling if "the values espoused in muslim theology" is the same as "is muslim theology".

Really? Thats the *best* you've got?






quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

Which question is that again?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


Do you think the values espoused in the Muslim religion are consonant with western civilization. Yes or No?
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4499778


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Sorry still here. Still posting the same answers which you will ignore again. Once again I am not interested in values. The question - now repeated for the 22nd time. Is muslim theology consonant with western civilization.

I told you were free to use any mainstream Islamic theology. For example, Sunni, Sufi, Druze, Shia.
I told you were free to use any G-7 civilization.

You've distorted, avoided, mixed the question - and basically flat out chose not to answer the question asked.

Have a nice day.



So which is it again? Values or theology? Culturally don't allow music and dancing, or fanatic zealots use religious dogma to ban those things?

Who to believe, who to believe?

You aren't even trying to keep up the appearance of honesty.






(in reply to Powergamz1)
Profile   Post #: 282
RE: Why Arabs Don't Like the U.S. - 7/26/2013 11:25:33 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

You really got it comin friend callin me a bigot and racist a couple of times. Let's pound through your WISDOM and make you look stupid. Expect the worst of me denegrating YOUR belief.editted with a big smile cause you been challenging me for some time now. I love it when a plan comes together you big troll


So tell me your remarks about Ramadan were not hypothetical bullshit and that you really own a company where that actually happened.

No ?...... thought not.



(in reply to MrBukani)
Profile   Post #: 283
RE: Why Arabs Don't Like the U.S. - 7/26/2013 4:07:00 PM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline
A 'variation' that is a complete and utter flip flop you've made repeatedly.

When you are given links and citations proving you wrong on the theology, you flip-flop and pretend you were only talking about culture, when you are proven wrong on your ludicrous assertions about culture (no dancing or music), you flip-flop back and claim you were never talking about culture, only theology, and when your own words are directly quoted back to you, you hand wave them away

Again, you've got nothing, except denial of reality, and projection.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Yeah - your "all the times" is a single variation of wording.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1.
No, I've been pointing out the difference all these times you've flip flopped ...
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Oh posh.

Do you really find that unclear? Really??? Especially since I gave numerous examples of what muslim theology stands for? Death to apostates and idolators. Lack of religious freedom. Bow ties forbidden. Dancing forbidden. Music Forbidden.

How about you answer the question asked 23 times now - instead of searching pages and pages of quotes for wordings that support your nvective.

IS MUSLIM THEOLOGY consonant with western civilization?

Look man- why don't you just admit you have no intention of answering the question? You can't defeat the premise with quotes, with logic so you pound the table quibling if "the values espoused in muslim theology" is the same as "is muslim theology".

Really? Thats the *best* you've got?






quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

Which question is that again?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


Do you think the values espoused in the Muslim religion are consonant with western civilization. Yes or No?
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4499778


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Sorry still here. Still posting the same answers which you will ignore again. Once again I am not interested in values. The question - now repeated for the 22nd time. Is muslim theology consonant with western civilization.

I told you were free to use any mainstream Islamic theology. For example, Sunni, Sufi, Druze, Shia.
I told you were free to use any G-7 civilization.

You've distorted, avoided, mixed the question - and basically flat out chose not to answer the question asked.

Have a nice day.



So which is it again? Values or theology? Culturally don't allow music and dancing, or fanatic zealots use religious dogma to ban those things?

Who to believe, who to believe?

You aren't even trying to keep up the appearance of honesty.









_____________________________

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" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 284
RE: Why Arabs Don't Like the U.S. - 7/26/2013 4:08:43 PM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline
The fact that you are willing to keep repeating that no links/citations/references were provided, doesn't make it true.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Right, so after dozen+ . pages - not a single cite by you to suggest that muslim theology is consonant with western civilzations.

So by your inability to provide a quote, a fatwah, or anything I'm consider it pretty much a given that your side can't defend your counter position. And your failure to address the question reflects on your honesty.

[



_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 285
RE: Why Arabs Don't Like the U.S. - 7/26/2013 7:21:14 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

But the Muslim world seems to be the bigger question mark at this point. They just seem to lash out at random targets without any rhyme or reason. They don't seem to have any coherent set of goals or objectives. How can one negotiate with that? How can we sit down with them and say "Okay, tell us what you want" when either they don't know what they want or demand something we cannot provide? We can't unspill the milk, we can't undo the creation of Israel or anything else that's in the past.

It surprised me to read this. It seems to me that treating the entire Muslim world as a single monolithic entity, with a single agenda might not be the best way to view this issue. It's rather like expecting all of Europe - from Russia to Ireland, Norway to Malta - to be a single unit with a single agenda.

Oil producing countries will have differing goals to non-oil producing countries. Countries that enjoy limited democracy (eg Lebanon) will have different issues to monarchies and dictatorships. While there are a number of issues on which the Arab world seems united (see below), there will be variations. We are unable to change the past, but sensitivity to these variations is one area where the West can lift its game


quote:

But there may be some things that we can do to try to patch things up and move forward into a productive, friendly, and mutually-beneficial relationship. I'm just wondering what those things might be. I'm not prepared to subscribe to the notion that they're all a bunch of crazed religious zealots who won't be happy until the entire world is Muslim. Maybe there are some like that, and I wouldn't deny that they do represent a true threat to global security and stability.


While I agree that " the notion that they're all a bunch of crazed religious zealots who won't be happy until the entire world is Muslim" is nonsense, I am surprised to learn that you are unclear about the main agenda from an Arab perspective. That might say a thing or two about the quality of news analysis and information conveyed by the US media about the Arab world. My impression is that the US media generally fails to convey an impartial picture of the Arab world and its issues.

For as long as I have been following these issues, there have been 3 main areas of contention listed by Arabs that require addressing. These are: (1) Israel; (2) Western intervention in the internal affairs of Arab countries; and (3) control of oil, and the benefits that flow from possession of that resource. There's nothing new or revolutionary here, these points of contention have been repeatedly stated. The West's response to these demands has been virtually non-existent.

Is it a case of Arabs not having a coherent agenda or the West choosing not to listen to and/or ignoring the Arabs' agenda?

quote:


But I suppose the million dollar question is whether the West can make key concessions to appease the moderates so as to undermine popular support for the more dangerous fanatics among them. As you mention, US support of Israel is a significant stumbling block, so (just as one example) if the U.S. pressured Israel to withdraw to their pre-1967 boundaries, would that truly satisfy the Muslims in the region? Israel won't do it because they don't trust the Muslims; they think it would just encourage more attacks on Israel. If it truly meant that there could be a lasting peace and a more friendly relationship between. the U.S. and the Arab/Muslim nations of the Middle East, then I would be all for it, but I can also see why many would be hesitant and wary. Many more just aren't convinced that it would work.

It's somewhat trouble to ponder the notion that we may have gone past the point of no return, that there may be no solution here.


I don't believe for a moment that the situation is irredeemable. There are a number of steps that the West could take that would greatly improve relations between Arabs and the West. To continue with the example of Israel you have chosen:
Pressure can be applied to Israel to force it to the negotiating table and to conclude a just peace with the Palestinians. It is surely clear to a blind person that Israel has no intention of giving up the West Bank or allowing a viable Palestinian State. If Israeli intransigence wins the day, the situation might well become irredeemable. It is also clear to a blind person that Israel cannot survive without Western support.

So Israel can be given a choice - give up the Occupation and conclude a just peace or forget about Western support. Israel would have choice but to comply.

Introducing consistent fair and even handed policies towards the region by the US would be another simple step towards resolving outstanding issues. The Arab world is understandably incensed by the blatant anti-Arab/Muslim bias of current US policy. One example out of a myriad: The US and the West have turned a blind eye to Israel's nuclear weapons for decades, but are on the verge of threatening outright war on Iran to punish Iran for its alleged attempts to develop nuclear weapons. Such naked double standards are guaranteed to produce an adverse reaction in the Arab world.

So there are two straightforward measures that could greatly improve the US and the West's relations with the Arab world. At their core, there are two simple principles involved that really ought to govern any nation's foreign policy - promotion of peace and balanced policy. From an Arab perspective, it is incomprehensible and provocative that such principles are absent from current policy. The ongoing failure to put such principles into actual policy generates a major part of antipathy Arabs currently feel towards the West and the USA in particular.

There are many other issues that require change on both sides. But putting such basic principles into policy ought to remove much of the poison from Arab-US relations and to change the anitpathy the 'Arab street' feels towards the US. It would be criminal if the US and the West generally failed to implement the changes necessary to prevent the current antipathy becoming permanent. Unless and until these steps are taken, we cannot say that the situation is damaged beyond repair.

.


< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 7/26/2013 7:33:24 PM >


_____________________________



(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 286
RE: Why Arabs Don't Like the U.S. - 7/27/2013 7:50:51 AM   
MrBukani


Posts: 1920
Joined: 4/18/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

You really got it comin friend callin me a bigot and racist a couple of times. Let's pound through your WISDOM and make you look stupid. Expect the worst of me denegrating YOUR belief.editted with a big smile cause you been challenging me for some time now. I love it when a plan comes together you big troll


So tell me your remarks about Ramadan were not hypothetical bullshit and that you really own a company where that actually happened.

No ?...... thought not.




I dont own it my fuckin family owns everything here. Your turn.

< Message edited by MrBukani -- 7/27/2013 8:20:38 AM >

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 287
RE: Why Arabs Don't Like the U.S. - 7/27/2013 8:14:50 AM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

It surprised me to read this. It seems to me that treating the entire Muslim world as a single monolithic entity, with a single agenda might not be the best way to view this issue.


It wasn't my intention to paint them as a single monolithic entity. But there are the governments and the people of these nations, and I've seen examples of how nations which were once "allies" became enemies overnight, and vice versa. So, however you view them, one thing I've noticed is that whatever you see there today might not be there tomorrow. That's really what I meant. We can't even assume that a Muslim nation like Turkey is stable anymore.

quote:

It's rather like expecting all of Europe - from Russia to Ireland, Norway to Malta - to be a single unit with a single agenda.


Our perceptions of the Soviet Bloc might be a better analogy.

quote:


Oil producing countries will have differing goals to non-oil producing countries. Countries that enjoy limited democracy (eg Lebanon) will have different issues to monarchies and dictatorships. While there are a number of issues on which the Arab world seems united (see below), there will be variations. We are unable to change the past, but sensitivity to these variations is one area where the West can lift its game


But you can't really count on that. Iraq was once our "enemy," now they're our "friend." Saudi Arabia is supposed to be our "friend," yet Osama Bin Laden was a Saudi. Were Bin Laden's interests the same as the Saudi government, and if not, why not?


quote:


While I agree that " the notion that they're all a bunch of crazed religious zealots who won't be happy until the entire world is Muslim" is nonsense, I am surprised to learn that you are unclear about the main agenda from an Arab perspective. That might say a thing or two about the quality of news analysis and information conveyed by the US media about the Arab world. My impression is that the US media generally fails to convey an impartial picture of the Arab world and its issues.


I won't deny that the US media are flawed and biased, but a lot of it also depends on a clear, concise, unambiguous message coming from the Muslim world, which hasn't really been forthcoming. Why are there so many Muslims who insist on acting exactly the way the US media portrays them? That's probably why the US government puts its all eggs in supporting dictatorial and/or militaristic regimes, since it's all they can really depend on as being "stable" (or at least the closest thing to it).

This is the situation that we're faced with. If the path for peace involves the US government changing its policies in the Middle East (which I've agreed with), then we have to have something coherent to work with in order for the American people to support it. The article I linked in the OP was directed at Americans, and the overall discussion seems to revolve around US policies and how they affect the Arab world. But the question still remains: How can Americans be convinced to support the policy changes we're discussing?

quote:


For as long as I have been following these issues, there have been 3 main areas of contention listed by Arabs that require addressing. These are: (1) Israel; (2) Western intervention in the internal affairs of Arab countries; and (3) control of oil, and the benefits that flow from possession of that resource. There's nothing new or revolutionary here, these points of contention have been repeatedly stated. The West's response to these demands has been virtually non-existent.


Not non-existent. The fact that the West is actively involved in the Middle East should clearly show that the West is responding.

(1) Israel is probably the most complicated issue in this whole situation. This is purely a religious issue and nothing more. It has nothing whatsoever to do with oil, and in fact, we've compromised our oil interests by supporting Israel. More on this in a moment.

(2) Western intervention in the internal affairs of other nations is not exactly new, nor has it been confined to the Middle East. There's absolutely no way that this general policy will change until there are some major ideological changes in the American political consciousness. People outside of America (and even most people inside America) do not understand this; some might think it's a matter of an insidious conspiracy or some rogue element in the government. Too many look for rats under the couch while ignoring the elephant in the living room.

(3) Oil is important, but in this situation, I think to mention it is a red herring more than anything else. Obviously, the Arabs are in control of their own oil, making scads of money and living a life of wealth and privilege, while the American economy has been crippled. There's every indication that the Arabs are the ones holding the upper hand here, so what are they complaining about? If there are other Arab nations left out in the cold and not being able to share that wealth, then they need to take it up with their fellow Arabs and Muslims, not with the West.

quote:


Is it a case of Arabs not having a coherent agenda or the West choosing not to listen to and/or ignoring the Arabs' agenda?


They're not ignoring the Arabs, but very often, it's the Arabs who send out mixed messages.

quote:


I don't believe for a moment that the situation is irredeemable. There are a number of steps that the West could take that would greatly improve relations between Arabs and the West.


But it always takes two sides to make peace. The Arabs might also have to take steps, and are they willing to take those steps?

quote:


To continue with the example of Israel you have chosen:
Pressure can be applied to Israel to force it to the negotiating table and to conclude a just peace with the Palestinians. It is surely clear to a blind person that Israel has no intention of giving up the West Bank or allowing a viable Palestinian State. If Israeli intransigence wins the day, the situation might well become irredeemable. It is also clear to a blind person that Israel cannot survive without Western support.

So Israel can be given a choice - give up the Occupation and conclude a just peace or forget about Western support. Israel would have choice but to comply.


But would that guarantee that there would be no more terrorism? Would that guarantee peace? The question is still on the table.

Sure, the West can put pressure on Israel, although I don't think that Israel would immediately cave in if Western support was withdrawn. If they felt even more isolated, they could become even more desperate and resort to drastic measures. Nobody wants that, so it would be more prudent to go carefully on this.

quote:


Introducing consistent fair and even handed policies towards the region by the US would be another simple step towards resolving outstanding issues. The Arab world is understandably incensed by the blatant anti-Arab/Muslim bias of current US policy. One example out of a myriad: The US and the West have turned a blind eye to Israel's nuclear weapons for decades, but are on the verge of threatening outright war on Iran to punish Iran for its alleged attempts to develop nuclear weapons. Such naked double standards are guaranteed to produce an adverse reaction in the Arab world.


I'll admit that the U.S. government dropped the ball in its failed policies towards Iran. I think it's a little too late for our government to be worried about a possible threat from Iran when they were apparently not so worried when the Iranians seized our embassy in 1979 - or when they traded arms for hostages in the Iran-Contra Affair.

However, I don't think the U.S. will go to war with Iran, not at this point. That could likely trigger a backlash from other major powers which the U.S. would not be equipped to handle. More than likely, the U.S. is hoping for some sort of internal revolt within Iran, although I'm not sure what the chances of that are.

You're right about the double standards. I've mentioned this myself numerous times. But just as they're incensed by an anti-Arab/Muslim bias in U.S. policy (which isn't how I would characterize it, since we're extremely pro-Arab/Muslim when it comes to Arab royalty), Americans are incensed by their blatant anti-Americanism, as well as anti-Christianity. I think it's a double standard to rail against Israel when many of these Arab/Muslim regimes don't exactly have the best records when it comes to human rights violations and treatment of religious/ethnic minorities in their own countries. This is something that shouldn't be ignored, and this is something that the Arab/Muslim nations are going to have to own up to eventually.

quote:


So there are two straightforward measures that could greatly improve the US and the West's relations with the Arab world. At their core, there are two simple principles involved that really ought to govern any nation's foreign policy - promotion of peace and balanced policy. From an Arab perspective, it is incomprehensible and provocative that such principles are absent from current policy. The ongoing failure to put such principles into actual policy generates a major part of antipathy Arabs currently feel towards the West and the USA in particular.

There are many other issues that require change on both sides. But putting such basic principles into policy ought to remove much of the poison from Arab-US relations and to change the anitpathy the 'Arab street' feels towards the US. It would be criminal if the US and the West generally failed to implement the changes necessary to prevent the current antipathy becoming permanent. Unless and until these steps are taken, we cannot say that the situation is damaged beyond repair.


Whatever geopolitical aspirations may have existed in the Western governments or in the various Middle Eastern factions seem to have been superseded by the fact that blood has already been spilled. They've attacked us, we've attacked them, and it's turned into a blood feud. That's how I would characterize the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as well. Whatever original grievances there were, it's gone beyond that, so addressing the original grievances may not be sufficient at this point. I would agree that it would be a step in the right direction, but I also think we need to look at it realistically and not let down our guard too soon.

I also think that we need to consider our own interests as well, but that would require internal changes in perception of what our interests actually are, as well as how we view our position in the world overall. That's really the major issue we face at this point, which is more an internal matter, and that's why we might inevitably have to pull out of the Middle East entirely.

But that's a political impossibility right now, mainly due to the widespread belief among the body politic that the world would fall apart into anarchy without active American intervention. That's what remains unaddressed in many of these debates. As I said, it wasn't my intention to make it seem that I was painting the Arab/Muslim world with a broad brush, but in examining the question of why Arabs don't like the U.S. and their perceptions of U.S. policy, it's also important to consider how the U.S. perceives them, no matter if it's colored by media bias or not.

Also involved in this is how Americans tend to view the outside world in general, and in my observations and readings of America-bashers from different factions around the world, they never seem to address this particular issue, except in a dismissive and left-handed way. If the solution involves America taking the steps you outlined above, then this is really where it has to start.

This is why I'm doubtful of any real solution here. As I mentioned way back in my OP in this thread, if the problem of why the Arabs don't like the U.S. is due to our policies, then it becomes necessary to examine the motives and attitudes which formulated those policies to begin with. The article only gave us half the story, and that's what I wanted to discuss. It's not simply a matter of listing the policies that America must change, since we have to also examine why we had those policies to begin with and the ideals, principles, and attitudes which motivated their formulation. The policies you mentioned which offend the Arabs are only a symptom, but in order to change them and find any real solution, we have to examine the root causes behind those policies - and the sacred cows worshiped by both liberals and conservatives who are afraid to tread upon them. Even the America-bashers seem reluctant to address the root causes here, which is why I often wonder about the positions they hold.


(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 288
RE: Why Arabs Don't Like the U.S. - 7/27/2013 8:31:31 PM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

It surprised me to read this. It seems to me that treating the entire Muslim world as a single monolithic entity, with a single agenda might not be the best way to view this issue. It's rather like expecting all of Europe - from Russia to Ireland, Norway to Malta - to be a single unit with a single agenda. .


Of course it did. Thats because as far as most westerners care - a muslim is a muslim is a muslim. We are really not interested in the difference between Druze and Shia. Suffi and Sunni.

We see terrorist actictivities in Morocco, Mali, Lebanon, Chechnya, Malaysia, Phillipines, Kenya, Egypt, Tunisia, Iraq, Syria, Iran, Yemen, Afghanistan, Somalia - just to name a few. And you wonder why we lump you all together?

From our viewpoint - you are all the same. Hatred of Israel: Check. Hatred of the US: Check. Religion incompatible with our values: Check. Third world economies: check. Lots of sand: Check.

When people don't really much care about anything outside the US - and face it - thats pretty much true of 95% of the US; when they are educated in 5 minute sound bites - it may not be accurate - but thats how we see you. Frankly, except for oil and terrorism and a threat to the existence of Israel - we don't even think about you.

Regarding a 'balanced' policy. Why on earth do you suppose we should have a 'balanced policy'? Do you suppose arab states have a balanced policy toward Israel?

Let me serve you up a little reminder: http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=315642
You know - where the Arab league in 2010 still doesn't recognize Israels right to exist as a Jewish state.

Tweak - you are as rabid as any of the ultra-orthodox Jews. And until you see what the palestinians have contributed to this conflict - and until you and most of your co-religionists are willing to have peace with Israel - the conflict will continue.

And the next president - guaranteed - will not be so anti-Israel as the current one is.



(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 289
RE: Why Arabs Don't Like the U.S. - 7/27/2013 10:39:16 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
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Wrong thread

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(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 290
RE: Why Arabs Don't Like the U.S. - 7/28/2013 12:04:47 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

If the path for peace involves the US government changing its policies in the Middle East (which I've agreed with), then we have to have something coherent to work with in order for the American people to support it. The article I linked in the OP was directed at Americans, and the overall discussion seems to revolve around US policies and how they affect the Arab world. But the question still remains: How can Americans be convinced to support the policy changes we're discussing?


Indeed. From where I sit, there are some encouraging signs that Americans are beginning question ME policy in ways previously thought taboo. This may be happening more at the level of decision makers than the general public. I recall a survey of US decision makers where something life 75% agreed that US support for Israel was detrimental to US national interests (sorry I can't find a link for this).

This recent speech
by the retired commander of the US Central Command ( which includes all the Middle East) would have been unthinkable perhaps a decade ago. Gen. Mattis commented:
“I paid a military security price every day as the commander of CentCom because the Americans were seen as biased in support of Israel, and that moderates all the moderate Arabs who want to be with us, because they can’t come out publicly in support of people who don’t show respect for the Arab Palestinians,”

The emergence of Jewish voices critical of Israel, such as the J Street movement and Peter Bienart's "Open Zion" column in the Daily Beast, the appointment of Hagen as US Defence Secretary, US pension funds divesting in Israel and companies that profit from the Occupation, and many mainstream Protestant Churches joining (or considering joining) in the Boycott of Israel all point to a gradual reassessment of US attitudes to Israel, a process largely generated by Israel's own intransigence and the revulsion of liberal Americans at Israel's Occupation, ethnic cleansing and apartheid. This process is slow and uphill but has advanced considerably in recent years and shows no signs of stalling.

If I was an American among the questions I would be asking are: In which way(s) is Israel a "vital security interest" of the USA? What does the US get from its enormous financial, military, diplomatic and political investment in Israel (apart from trouble)? How does the fact that the US is an energy exporter, and no longer as dependent on ME oil as it was, impact on our relations with the region? Why doesn't ME policy reflect and advance the US's own interests rather than putting Israel's interests first? Why do the benefits from the Israeli alliance flow to one side only? What advantages would a more balanced ME policy offer the US?

As you point out, this is a critical area. The US's unquestioning support offered for Israel is a factor that has long retarded movement towards a peaceful resolution of regional problems. For as long as this unquestioning support continues, there will be no reason for Israel to reconsider its intransigence, and the consequent damage to US national interests will continue unabated.

At the moment, time constrains prevent me from responding to the many other thoughtful points in your post. I'll try to address them later tonight

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 7/28/2013 12:09:36 AM >


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RE: Why Arabs Don't Like the U.S. - 7/28/2013 3:49:12 AM   
MrBukani


Posts: 1920
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani



Schilderswijk Den Haag Holland, now try and find a native dutch person for me please.

That's the Hague for you, there is the international peace palace and such

Remember this is not a joke but everyday reality if you live there.

Your turn...

For people doubting the picture I punched up some figures for you.


Meer dan 90% van de geregistreerde bewoners is van niet-Westerse afkomst — met name Turks, Surinaams en Marokkaans.

Translated Over 90% of registered citizens is of non western descent.



http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schilderswijk_(Den_Haag)

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RE: Why Arabs Don't Like the U.S. - 7/28/2013 4:54:17 PM   
Powergamz1


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There are plenty of people who don't fall for Israel's 'We are a peaceful nation' claims...

http://news.yahoo.com/turkey-captures-bird-accuses-spying-israel-see-why-141627495.html

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RE: Why Arabs Don't Like the U.S. - 7/28/2013 6:12:02 PM   
MrBukani


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I'm a jew what do you mean powergamzz, we were born for war, never read the book?
We are the best soldiers.



< Message edited by MrBukani -- 7/28/2013 6:24:28 PM >

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RE: Why Arabs Don't Like the U.S. - 7/28/2013 8:08:05 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

until you see what the palestinians have contributed to this conflict

The only Palestinian "contribution" to the conflict was living in an area that somebody else decided they wanted.

K.

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RE: Why Arabs Don't Like the U.S. - 7/28/2013 10:11:28 PM   
Phydeaux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

until you see what the palestinians have contributed to this conflict

The only Palestinian "contribution" to the conflict was living in an area that somebody else decided they wanted.

K.

Kirata, I'm surprised to hear you say that, when you have been in most other cases fairly objective.

Regardless of what you think about Israel, no nation is going to sit back and let itself be annihilated. According to some accounts (by palestinians) the final issue that prevented a deal with the "no right of return". Israel can not allow milllions of palestinians to migrate into the country - it is essentially the death of Israel.

Jews have lived in the area of Israel longer than any other culture that I have documentation of. I think it is appropriate to have a Jewish state there.

Regarding the west bank, gaza, the golan heights- Israel conquered these lands after they were attacked. Doesn't seem to fit you saying '. Palestinian "contribution" to the conflict was living in an area that somebody else decided they wanted'.

They decided to attack israel. They lost. Thats a pretty huge part of the problem.

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RE: Why Arabs Don't Like the U.S. - 7/28/2013 10:29:47 PM   
Termyn8or


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quote:

It's rather like expecting all of Europe - from Russia to Ireland, Norway to Malta


Touche', nobody caught that for TWO DAYS !

LOL Keep on. You made my day, or actually they did.

T^T

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RE: Why Arabs Don't Like the U.S. - 7/29/2013 3:36:19 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

Zonie63
I also think that we need to consider our own interests as well, but that would require internal changes in perception of what our interests actually are, as well as how we view our position in the world overall. That's really the major issue we face at this point, which is more an internal matter, and that's why we might inevitably have to pull out of the Middle East entirely.

But that's a political impossibility right now, mainly due to the widespread belief among the body politic that the world would fall apart into anarchy without active American intervention. That's what remains unaddressed in many of these debates. As I said, it wasn't my intention to make it seem that I was painting the Arab/Muslim world with a broad brush, but in examining the question of why Arabs don't like the U.S. and their perceptions of U.S. policy, it's also important to consider how the U.S. perceives them, no matter if it's colored by media bias or not.

Also involved in this is how Americans tend to view the outside world in general, and in my observations and readings of America-bashers from different factions around the world, they never seem to address this particular issue, except in a dismissive and left-handed way. If the solution involves America taking the steps you outlined above, then this is really where it has to start.

This is why I'm doubtful of any real solution here. As I mentioned way back in my OP in this thread, if the problem of why the Arabs don't like the U.S. is due to our policies, then it becomes necessary to examine the motives and attitudes which formulated those policies to begin with. The article only gave us half the story, and that's what I wanted to discuss. It's not simply a matter of listing the policies that America must change, since we have to also examine why we had those policies to begin with and the ideals, principles, and attitudes which motivated their formulation. The policies you mentioned which offend the Arabs are only a symptom, but in order to change them and find any real solution, we have to examine the root causes behind those policies - and the sacred cows worshiped by both liberals and conservatives who are afraid to tread upon them. Even the America-bashers seem reluctant to address the root causes here, which is why I often about the positions they hold.



For me, as a non-American, a lot of US politics are bewildering. Understanding how the various forces that shape US foreign policy interact is a complicated task. Most accounts in the media tend to tell the story as a clash between 'isolationists' and 'interventionists' a clash that has been happening since WWI. Inside both of these perspectives we are told there are 'hawks' and 'doves'. I've no doubt these kinds of superficial analyses fail to tell anything like the full story. What does emerge clearly is that there is a substantial gap between the way Americans tend to see and understand the world and the ways in which non-Americans see and understand the world and the role of American policies in how that world is shaped.

One example might be that many Americans tend to view US interventions overseas as 'liberations' while the locals often tend to view such interventions as 'invasions' or 'aggressions'. For instance, Iraq is claimed to have been liberated by Bush's intervention, while Arabs tend to see it as an aggressive invasion. That the stated causus belli - WMDs - turned out to be completely false doesn't help. OTOH, this is the nation that gave Europe the visionary Marshall plan to rebuild after the devastation of WWII.

My feeling is that at the core of this discussion is the ideology of American 'exceptionalism' by which I understand the view that the US has a unique 'exceptional' role to play in the world, as the 'leader of the free world' and chief proponent of democracy and 'democratic values' and that no other country can play this role. This privileged position authorises unilateral behaviour, with no accountability to the rest of the world for its actions or their consequences. Obviously this is a perspective that excludes non-Americans while sanitising many of the more controversial actions the US has conducted overseas - actions that US tends to view as 'liberating' the (often 'ungrateful') natives. In this view as I understand it, the relationships between US strategic, geo-political and commercial interests and its military interventions are seen as very much secondary, while many non-Americans tend to feel that the commercial interests often are the prime movers behind those of military interventions.

One example of how this ideology plays out in practice is the post immediately after yours - post #289. Here the view that the US can act as it pleases is stated in all its ugly arrogance. Any one critical of the US or its allies is motivated by 'hate'. The US can do what it wants and doesn't give two hoots what the rest of the world thinks. This deluded interpretation of the world is mixed liberally with blatant self-serving fiction. The need for US to follow a "balanced policy" is scorned.* This view seems to regard its own ignorance as a positive advantage. It's easy to see why this view creates such antagonism and criticism throughout the world.

Many non-Americans (including myself) have been and are very critical of US foreign policy. These views are often dismissed by Americans as 'anti-American hatred'. While I have no doubt that this hatred is real in many quarters, it is far from universal. Most people I discuss these issues with are coming from another, far friendlier perspective - we want to like the US, we see many positive aspects to the US but feel that the US makes it very difficult for us to like it. In my experience, this view is as valid for Arabs as any other sector.

I would very much like to see you go into greater detail about your views on these questions. I'm sure that your views will be far more interesting and nuanced than the crude 'exceptionalist' ideology advanced by Phydeaux. There would be much to learn from the ensuing conversation and have little doubt that it would benefit all involved.

* Presumably, 'exceptionalists' prefer un-balanced policies. 'Un-balanced' here is used as in madness, insanity ....

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 7/29/2013 4:12:24 AM >


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RE: Why Arabs Don't Like the U.S. - 7/29/2013 4:57:28 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

For me, as a non-American, a lot of US politics are bewildering.

Both our politics at home and our foreign policy abroad seem, to me, distinctly at odds with the interests of the average American. But even when we vote for change, we still don't get it.

K.






< Message edited by Kirata -- 7/29/2013 5:06:59 AM >

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RE: Why Arabs Don't Like the U.S. - 7/29/2013 5:56:33 AM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

For me, as a non-American, a lot of US politics are bewildering.

Both our politics at home and our foreign policy abroad seem, to me, distinctly at odds with the interests of the average American. But even when we vote for change, we still don't get it.

K.








AMEN BROTHER KIRATA

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