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RE: Benghazi - 7/27/2013 12:19:17 PM

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Did not see NYT piece. When's the last time Congress declared war? Did not know anything about SoS bragging about such a thing.

Congressional inquiries were made. Not much came from them. I never felt lied to. I felt things were in the fog of war and some misinformation happened in the beginning. I never saw a scandal or a crisis. Nor did anyone else with an objective pair of eyes.

The larger issue is the USA did not lose near $1 Trillion Dollars in toppling a dictator. Next to IRAN and IRAQ, this looks like a success to me.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 7/27/2013 12:21:48 PM >

(in reply to TheHeretic)

RE: Benghazi - 7/27/2013 1:23:36 PM

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First, you need to DEFINE incompetence. Since Bush pretty much set the bar for incompetence, we can use him as a standard.

Clearly Obama isn't incompetent by that standard.

However, if you want to set the bar at Obama, why then wasn't Bush impeached for treason and criminal dereliction of duty?

(in reply to cloudboy)

RE: Benghazi - 7/27/2013 5:08:21 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

Did not see NYT piece. When's the last time Congress declared war? Did not know anything about SoS bragging about such a thing.

I assume you have an NYT app. It was in the Google feed yesterday.

The last formal declaration of war from Congress was December, 1941. I'm of the opinion that overtly targeting the head of a sovereign state counts

Fuck that. I am not digging through back pages on search engines or press release transcript pdfs. Try a LexisNexis. It didn't get a lot of domestic attention. The question came up at a press conference, a bit after the election, IIRC. California is dumping the prisons into the streets, and the guy who made the movie (a fucktard ashole, granted) is still in a cell.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to cloudboy)

RE: Benghazi - 7/27/2013 7:11:29 PM

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Here's a few quotes

First from the Deputy Chief of Mission:

Hicks went on to say he believes "if we had been able to scramble a fighter or aircraft or two over Benghazi as quickly as possible after the attack commenced" -- around 9:30 that night -- "I believe there would not have been a mortar attack on the annex in the morning because I believe the Libyans would have split. They would have been scared to death that we would have gotten a laser on them and killed them."

The CIA mission chief believed help could get there in time. (Abc news).

Hicks said that four U.S. Special Forces troops in Tripoli -- led by the leader of the U.S. Special Operations Command Africa, SOCAfrica -- planned to hitch a ride on the Libyan plan to travel to Benghazi to help.

"We fully intended for those guys to go, because we had already essentially stripped ourselves of our security presence, or our security capability, to the bare minimum," Hicks recalled.

But the four were informed by someone with SOCAfrica that they didn't have the authority to go, Hicks said.

"So Lt. Col. Gibson, who is the SOCAfrica commander, his team, you know, they were on their way to the vehicles to go to the airport to get on the C-130 when he got a phone call from SOCAfrica which said, 'you can't go now, you don't have authority to go now,'' Hicks said. "And so they missed the flight."

"They were told not to board the flight, so they missed it," Hicks said. "I still remember Col. Gibson, he said, 'I have never been so embarrassed in my life that a State Department officer has bigger balls than somebody in the military.' A nice compliment."

Another quote:
Fighter jets and Specter AC-130 gunships were also available at nearby bases, military sources told CBS.

Meanwhile, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton sought clearances from Libya to fly in their airspace, CBS reports. But the Obama administration won’t reveal further details on that front.

Retired CIA officer Gary Berntsen tells CBS that help could have arrived sooner.

(in reply to Phydeaux)

RE: Benghazi - 7/27/2013 7:17:31 PM

BamaD

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Since you are going to quote him, Phydeaux, I guess we could point out that if Ken's "facts" are actually accurate (he lies casually, and sometimes with links for show, that he hopes you won't click), such limited US military capability in so a vital and potentially explosive region is, in and of itself, a dereliction of duty scandal for the Commander in Chief.

Funny how a squid forgets to mention the existance of these cool things called, "aircraft carriers."

So if he is not telling the truth it is the scandal some say it is and if he is telling the truth it is an even worse scandal.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

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(in reply to TheHeretic)

RE: Benghazi - 7/27/2013 7:33:53 PM

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I think you have effectively nailed it. You get high marks for style and bite.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 7/27/2013 8:28:46 PM >

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

RE: Benghazi - 7/27/2013 8:07:00 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
.
I just told you Sigonella is out of range for F-16's without tankers in position. Incirlik is further away. I have no idea what other base you think is closer than nearly due north across the Med (Sigonella).

Yeah. And I'm telling you you are full of crap. The combat range for an f-16 without external drop tanks is 1200 miles, not 240 miles. And when you are in an emergeancy situation - you land them at benghazi airport if you have to.

External drop tanks are 1650 gallons of fuel extra, on an F-16I

Its 2089 km from Incirlik to benghazi - and thats within ferry range of an f16 stripped - without external tanks.
So.. yes.. they could have gotten there in under 4 hours from incirlik.

Its 468 miles from Sigonella to benghazi. So it is utter BS to say an F16 couldn't have gotten there.

(in reply to DomKen)

RE: Benghazi - 7/27/2013 8:12:00 PM

BamaD

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
.
I just told you Sigonella is out of range for F-16's without tankers in position. Incirlik is further away. I have no idea what other base you think is closer than nearly due north across the Med (Sigonella).

Yeah. And I'm telling you you are full of crap. The combat range for an f-16 without external drop tanks is 1200 miles, not 240 miles. And when you are in an emergeancy situation - you land them at benghazi airport if you have to.

External drop tanks are 1650 gallons of fuel extra, on an F-16I

Its 2089 km from Incirlik to benghazi - and thats within ferry range of an f16 stripped - without external tanks.
So.. yes.. they could have gotten there in under 4 hours from incirlik.

Its 468 miles from Sigonella to benghazi. So it is utter BS to say an F16 couldn't have gotten there.

combat range or combat radius

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Phydeaux)

RE: Benghazi - 7/27/2013 8:15:50 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

I think you have effectively nailed it.

By trying to drag the topic off into a Bush bash? I hoped for better.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to cloudboy)

RE: Benghazi - 7/27/2013 8:25:46 PM

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quote:

Fuck that. I am not digging through back pages on search engines or press release transcript pdfs. Try a LexisNexis. It didn't get a lot of domestic attention.

It's SAT night, we all have better things to do. You guys will have another noise-machine scandal to hold onto soon, its just a matter of time. Benghazi and the IRS, though, are just slippery bars of soap sliding away in the whitewater....
The last Benghazi item in the NYT online dated back to May.

Remember the Obama Scandals? That Used to Be a Thing

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 7/27/2013 8:30:31 PM >

(in reply to TheHeretic)

RE: Benghazi - 7/27/2013 8:34:18 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
.
I just told you Sigonella is out of range for F-16's without tankers in position. Incirlik is further away. I have no idea what other base you think is closer than nearly due north across the Med (Sigonella).

Yeah. And I'm telling you you are full of crap. The combat range for an f-16 without external drop tanks is 1200 miles, not 240 miles. And when you are in an emergeancy situation - you land them at benghazi airport if you have to.

Don't know where you got that number but it is crap. A F-16 cannot fly 1200 miles with any weapons load and without drop tanks.

quote:

External drop tanks are 1650 gallons of fuel extra, on an F-16I

Its 2089 km from Incirlik to benghazi - and thats within ferry range of an f16 stripped - without external tanks.
So.. yes.. they could have gotten there in under 4 hours from incirlik.

And do what? ferry range is completely unarmed, not even ammo in the cannon.

quote:

Its 468 miles from Sigonella to benghazi. So it is utter BS to say an F16 couldn't have gotten there.

A F-16 with a weapons load could not without a tanker. Those are the facts.

< Message edited by DomKen -- 7/27/2013 8:37:05 PM >

(in reply to Phydeaux)

RE: Benghazi - 7/27/2013 8:36:27 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Here's a few quotes

First from the Deputy Chief of Mission:

Hicks went on to say he believes "if we had been able to scramble a fighter or aircraft or two over Benghazi as quickly as possible after the attack commenced" -- around 9:30 that night -- "I believe there would not have been a mortar attack on the annex in the morning because I believe the Libyans would have split. They would have been scared to death that we would have gotten a laser on them and killed them."

The CIA mission chief believed help could get there in time. (Abc news).

Hicks said that four U.S. Special Forces troops in Tripoli -- led by the leader of the U.S. Special Operations Command Africa, SOCAfrica -- planned to hitch a ride on the Libyan plan to travel to Benghazi to help.

"We fully intended for those guys to go, because we had already essentially stripped ourselves of our security presence, or our security capability, to the bare minimum," Hicks recalled.

But the four were informed by someone with SOCAfrica that they didn't have the authority to go, Hicks said.

"So Lt. Col. Gibson, who is the SOCAfrica commander, his team, you know, they were on their way to the vehicles to go to the airport to get on the C-130 when he got a phone call from SOCAfrica which said, 'you can't go now, you don't have authority to go now,'' Hicks said. "And so they missed the flight."

"They were told not to board the flight, so they missed it," Hicks said. "I still remember Col. Gibson, he said, 'I have never been so embarrassed in my life that a State Department officer has bigger balls than somebody in the military.' A nice compliment."

Another quote:
Fighter jets and Specter AC-130 gunships were also available at nearby bases, military sources told CBS.

Meanwhile, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton sought clearances from Libya to fly in their airspace, CBS reports. But the Obama administration won’t reveal further details on that front.

Retired CIA officer Gary Berntsen tells CBS that help could have arrived sooner.

Those 4 men had no gear. All they had were handguns. they would have been useless in a firefight and the flight they missed is the one that brought our guys out. it arrived after the battle was over. The flight that left hours earlier is the one that guys with actual firepower were on and they got there just in time for the mortar attack that killed the 2 guys which marked the end of the battle.

(in reply to Phydeaux)

RE: Benghazi - 7/27/2013 9:01:49 PM

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So says Factless Ken - master of everything - once against without a single quote.
Here, let me quote you from the ultimate f-16 cite - although you could go to Jane's and get the same information.
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-15106.html

Again your quote of 240 miles mile range is simply laughable. Especially for a squid.

But since you apparently don't understand - well, anything. They could have:

a). Ferried the aircraft to sigonella. Refuelled and hit benghazi and *still* have prevented the attack.
b). We have several logicstics hubs in the area- ali salem, incirlik, izmir. These bases list logistics wings. So it is inconceivable that tankers were not available. If not, I'd like to know why - we don't have a single tanker in all of the middle east? Really?
c) Done a minimal load out (shells only) and full external drop load - and made it. The range from Incirlik is 1600 miles. The ferry range is over 2000 miles. With full drop tanks - they could have done at least a partial load and made it.

The range from Aviano is even better - besides being a major hub - the range is just over 1000 miles. Again. . F-16's could have taken off from aviano, hit benghazi and landed at sigonella.

Look - *If* the administration were to say that - hey- we didn't think to send help (despite the deputy mission chief begging for it) - or we made a mistake I'd say fair enough.

But the flat out lying that there were no assets in range is a FLAT OUT BALD FACED LIE.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
.
I just told you Sigonella is out of range for F-16's without tankers in position. Incirlik is further away. I have no idea what other base you think is closer than nearly due north across the Med (Sigonella).

Yeah. And I'm telling you you are full of crap. The combat range for an f-16 without external drop tanks is 1200 miles, not 240 miles. And when you are in an emergeancy situation - you land them at benghazi airport if you have to.

Don't know where you got that number but it is crap. A F-16 cannot fly 1200 miles with any weapons load and without drop tanks.

quote:

External drop tanks are 1650 gallons of fuel extra, on an F-16I

Its 2089 km from Incirlik to benghazi - and thats within ferry range of an f16 stripped - without external tanks.
So.. yes.. they could have gotten there in under 4 hours from incirlik.

And do what? ferry range is completely unarmed, not even ammo in the cannon.

quote:

Its 468 miles from Sigonella to benghazi. So it is utter BS to say an F16 couldn't have gotten there.

A F-16 with a weapons load could not without a tanker. Those are the facts.

Edit: oh and ps - the F15 has a range of 3450 miles.....

< Message edited by Phydeaux -- 7/27/2013 9:20:53 PM >

(in reply to DomKen)

RE: Benghazi - 7/27/2013 9:30:06 PM

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Oh.. and if you won't believe me - a quick google turns up actual f-16 pilots who say that same thing.
that fighters could have gotten there before woods and dougherty.

The following guy was an active duty pilot for years. Has the record for the highest speed kill - and21 Air Medals, 3 Distinguished Flying Crosses, and the Silver Star.
The fact that assets could have reached there is *so* blatantly obvious it is unbelievable that the administration is trying to put out a story that says they can't.

Heres a link:http://http://www.andersonteaparty.org/the-truth-on-air-assets-in-benghazi-from-someone-who-knows-his-stuff/

< Message edited by Phydeaux -- 7/27/2013 9:34:05 PM >

(in reply to Phydeaux)

RE: Benghazi - 7/27/2013 9:43:19 PM

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Oh. And why it matters.

the guy that was in charge of Africom was General Hams. He had a relief force ready at 10:30 and was ordered to stand down. He said - screw it we're going anyway - and in less than a minute his second in command received orders to relieve him of command.

Hams was forced into an early retirement - much earlier than previous commanders. The actions of these political thugs are shameful.

Do the lives of those 4 americans that died - do the careers of half a dozen patriotic americans really mean nothing to you?

You put your political goals in front of a true vetting of what happened?

There are a variety of links - here's onehttp://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/robbins-report/2012/oct/28/general-losing-his-job-over-benghazi/

< Message edited by Phydeaux -- 7/27/2013 9:44:22 PM >

(in reply to Phydeaux)

RE: Benghazi - 7/27/2013 11:14:25 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

So says Factless Ken - master of everything - once against without a single quote.
Here, let me quote you from the ultimate f-16 cite - although you could go to Jane's and get the same information.
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-15106.html

Again your quote of 240 miles mile range is simply laughable. Especially for a squid.

I never wrote anything about 240 miles liar.

The combat radius of an F-16 is 340 miles.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-16

Also your cite is for the ferry range of an F-16A which haven't flown in at least a decade and is a simple assertion, the chart the poster included is for an F-14.

quote:

But since you apparently don't understand - well, anything. They could have:

a). Ferried the aircraft to sigonella. Refuelled and hit benghazi and *still* have prevented the attack.
b). We have several logicstics hubs in the area- ali salem, incirlik, izmir. These bases list logistics wings. So it is inconceivable that tankers were not available. If not, I'd like to know why - we don't have a single tanker in all of the middle east? Really?

Ali al Salem is in Kuwait. that is farther away than Incilirk and Izmir which are both in Turkey. the Turkish bases are roughly 600 miles away. Way outside the range of a combat aircraft with a weapons load. Sigonella is the only option. Do you not know geography at all?

Do you think they have tankers sitting on runways full of fuel and a crew ready to launch? Do you think they can get one fueled and launch in less than a couple of hours? Are you unaware that it would still need to fly to the loiter area?

quote:

c) Done a minimal load out (shells only) and full external drop load - and made it. The range from Incirlik is 1600 miles. The ferry range is over 2000 miles. With full drop tanks - they could have done at least a partial load and made it.

And done what? Fighter jets don't strafe ground targets. Their stall speeds are too high to do it accurately.

quote:

The range from Aviano is even better - besides being a major hub - the range is just over 1000 miles. Again. . F-16's could have taken off from aviano, hit benghazi and landed at sigonella.

Not with a weapons load. That is 1500 miles plus loiter over target. That's pushing the ferry range.

If we'd had tankers on station and mission ready fighters on the ground you'd have a point but I cannot begin to see how we could have intervened in such a minor situation in an effective manner in the time available.

(in reply to Phydeaux)

RE: Benghazi - 7/28/2013 12:01:31 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

The combat radius of an F-16 is 340 miles.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-16

Also your cite is for the ferry range of an F-16A which haven't flown in at least a decade and is a simple assertion, the chart the poster included is for an F-14.

And combat radius has nothing to do with the question at hand. Combat radius presumes an outbound leg, time on station, and a return leg. The only thing that matters in this case is combat range. Regarding cite -
Read to the end of the article instead of looking at the pretty pictures.

quote:

quote:

But since you apparently don't understand - well, anything. They could have:

a). Ferried the aircraft to sigonella. Refuelled and hit benghazi and *still* have prevented the attack.
b). We have several logicstics hubs in the area- ali salem, incirlik, izmir. These bases list logistics wings. So it is inconceivable that tankers were not available. If not, I'd like to know why - we don't have a single tanker in all of the middle east? Really?

Ali al Salem is in Kuwait. that is farther away than Incilirk and Izmir which are both in Turkey. the Turkish bases are roughly 600 miles away. Way outside the range of a combat aircraft with a weapons load. Sigonella is the only option. Do you not know geography at all?

Do you think they have tankers sitting on runways full of fuel and a crew ready to launch? Do you think they can get one fueled and launch in less than a couple of hours? Are you unaware that it would still need to fly to the loiter area?

quote:

c) Done a minimal load out (shells only) and full external drop load - and made it. The range from Incirlik is 1600 miles. The ferry range is over 2000 miles. With full drop tanks - they could have done at least a partial load and made it.

And done what? Fighter jets don't strafe ground targets. Their stall speeds are too high to do it accurately.

What a load of utter ignorant horse dung. Again FACTLESS KEN

Go google u-tube. you will get hundreds of f-16 strafe videos. F-16 strafe runs are called in for special forces all the time.

And in fact, merely the presence of an f-16 on station has been enough to cause attackers to disperse - because they have great experience with US capability - let alone doing a supra mach flyover at 200 feet.

quote:

The range from Aviano is even better - besides being a major hub - the range is just over 1000 miles. Again. . F-16's could have taken off from aviano, hit benghazi and landed at sigonella.

Not with a weapons load. That is 1500 miles plus loiter over target. That's pushing the ferry range.

Horse dung. You are saying you know better than a 26 year veteran? .

(in reply to DomKen)

RE: Benghazi - 7/28/2013 12:32:03 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

So says Factless Ken - master of everything - once against without a single quote.
Here, let me quote you from the ultimate f-16 cite - although you could go to Jane's and get the same information.
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-15106.html

Again your quote of 240 miles mile range is simply laughable. Especially for a squid.

I never wrote anything about 240 miles liar.

The combat radius of an F-16 is 340 miles.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-16

Also your cite is for the ferry range of an F-16A which haven't flown in at least a decade and is a simple assertion, the chart the poster included is for an F-14.

quote:

But since you apparently don't understand - well, anything. They could have:

a). Ferried the aircraft to sigonella. Refuelled and hit benghazi and *still* have prevented the attack.
b). We have several logicstics hubs in the area- ali salem, incirlik, izmir. These bases list logistics wings. So it is inconceivable that tankers were not available. If not, I'd like to know why - we don't have a single tanker in all of the middle east? Really?

Ali al Salem is in Kuwait. that is farther away than Incilirk and Izmir which are both in Turkey. the Turkish bases are roughly 600 miles away. Way outside the range of a combat aircraft with a weapons load. Sigonella is the only option. Do you not know geography at all?

Do you think they have tankers sitting on runways full of fuel and a crew ready to launch? Do you think they can get one fueled and launch in less than a couple of hours? Are you unaware that it would still need to fly to the loiter area?

quote:

c) Done a minimal load out (shells only) and full external drop load - and made it. The range from Incirlik is 1600 miles. The ferry range is over 2000 miles. With full drop tanks - they could have done at least a partial load and made it.

And done what? Fighter jets don't strafe ground targets. Their stall speeds are too high to do it accurately.

quote:

The range from Aviano is even better - besides being a major hub - the range is just over 1000 miles. Again. . F-16's could have taken off from aviano, hit benghazi and landed at sigonella.

Not with a weapons load. That is 1500 miles plus loiter over target. That's pushing the ferry range.

If we'd had tankers on station and mission ready fighters on the ground you'd have a point but I cannot begin to see how we could have intervened in such a minor situation in an effective manner in the time available.

Yeah. We get that you can't see - because you've got political blinders on for your homeboy.

Recapitulating (again).

1. Fighters from aviano could have gotten there in roughly three hours. Aviano is just outside of normal combat range - however - with just cannon ammo and full drop and cts tanks it is well withing the 2600 ferry range, even adjusting down for a partial weapon load.

2. But they could have landed in Sigonella, or at the benghazi airport.

3. I'm tired of providing links for you - but there were fighters at ready station at the time of the incident.

4. The idea that there were no tankers at avianno, and sigonella, at izmir, at incirlik, at ali - is ridiculous. We have huge amounts of air lift going on to supply troops in Afghanstan. It is unbelievable to think there isn't a tank in that sphere of operations.

5. Even if you think combat operations from aviano is impossible there is nothing even remotely difficult in ferrying the plane to sigonella, refuelling and hitting benghazi from sigonella.

6. Regarding buzz over. Your idea that this tactic is ineffecit - again- ludicrous. It has been shown to be effective time after time after time. In fact - the Deputy chief of mission ASKED time and time again to have planes flyover.
A man with years of experience in theatre carrying out the *in place* emergeancy response plan.

7. Other airbases could have done the same ferry and still responded in time. Longer and slower, but still in time - with or without tankers. For example Incirlik is within ferry range.

7b. The very same thing could have been accomplished with F-15's (much longer range) or armed drones. It could have been accomplished with gunships on station. The idea that there were no assets within range is ludicrous.

8. The very fact that you think the death of 4 americans is a minor issue is offensive beyond belief. It is certainly counter to the way the american military feels about it.

(in reply to DomKen)

RE: Benghazi - 7/28/2013 12:59:03 AM

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Oh - and for the record. Around 1986 the US bombed Libya after the berlin incident. The f-111's took off from ENGLAND and bombed benghazi.
The plane which replaced the F-111 (the F-15E) has *greater* range.

The idea that we ha no assets in range - idiotic.

(in reply to Phydeaux)

RE: Benghazi - 7/28/2013 4:22:49 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Oh - and for the record. Around 1986 the US bombed Libya after the berlin incident. The f-111's took off from ENGLAND and bombed benghazi.
The plane which replaced the F-111 (the F-15E) has *greater* range.

The idea that we ha no assets in range - idiotic.

They had to be refuelled by tankers though.

(in reply to Phydeaux)

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