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RE: Benghazi - 8/8/2013 3:44:11 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
Firstly, the British Embassy in Benghazi pulled our staff out in June after a rocket attack on our ambassadors convoy, so your facts on that score are incorrect.

Since you say they had even more time than I thought they did it would seem that you would have say there was plenty of time to beef up security rather than reduce it, not that I expect you to.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 8/8/2013 3:45:37 AM >


_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 361
RE: Benghazi - 8/8/2013 4:46:55 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Took that to mean that they weren't there.
They would have been outnumber by no more than three to one, no if about it they would have kicked ass and taken names.
Before you display the depth of your knowledge think about this.
If 4 guys with handguns could hold them off for 8 hours what would 50 marines do.


What four guys where ?


You aren't up on this at all are you.
Instead of beefing up the security force they cut it to four guys armed only with handguns.

Bullshit. First it was at least 5 guys plus the Libyans and they were armed with M4's.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 362
RE: Benghazi - 8/8/2013 5:02:02 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Her husband had outed her long before in his book.
When you get your info from liars you are bound to be wrong.
You are aware, are you not, that she was an analyst, not an operative?

And what was the name of this book and on what date was it published?

A politics of Truth 2004
It was no secret that she worked at Langley, and that she was an analyst, not an operative.
I did the same thing in the Air Force at NSA, so trust me, I know the difference.

She was outed by Cheney and Rove in 2003 which is before 2004 so she was not outed by her husband.

She was an operative. She had a cover job and had traveled overseas extensively. At the time of her outing she claimed to work for Brewster Jennings and Associates which had an address not at Langley.

Just because she did not do sabotage does not mean she did not have a protected identity as evidenced by the cover job.

Then why was it an "open secret" that she worked for CIA. It was a well known fact before Cheney and Rov were accused of outing her.
And they were cleared, you forget that.


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plame_affair
pay special attention to the Robert Novac part of this.
What the Wilsons say is what they want to believe, and what you want to believe.
And it has absolutely nothing to do with Benghazi.
See my where I explained the OJ defense to Politesub.

Let's boil this done to facts and not Republican spin.

Wilson did not out his wife because in 2004 when the book came out she had already been outed by Cheney and Rove (the facts are that somebody with clearance told Scooter and Cooper testified that Rove did out her, who told Rove of course remains a "mystery").

Novak can claim she was an analyst but that is also untrue by the facts. She had a cover job and had traveled extensively working in combating nuclear proliferation. While much of the details of her career with the CIA remains classified we do know she worked undercover both as a consular officer in Athens and that she worked as an "energy consultant" for the front company Brewster Jennings in the mid 90's in Brussels and again in the 2001 to 2003 period based out of D.C.. When Novak wrote that she worked for the CIA he ended her career and the careers of every CIA officer who had Brewster Jennings as a cover job or on their resumes and endangered the lives of every foreign contact of all those people. Do you really believe that the CIA would go to the trouble of creating a front company if the fact that Plame worked for the CIA was not classified?

As to it not being about Benghazi I made a statement of fact about W and you rushed to his defense so I felt it necessary to try and bring some reality to you on this.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 363
RE: Benghazi - 8/8/2013 12:57:25 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Her husband had outed her long before in his book.
When you get your info from liars you are bound to be wrong.
You are aware, are you not, that she was an analyst, not an operative?

And what was the name of this book and on what date was it published?

A politics of Truth 2004
It was no secret that she worked at Langley, and that she was an analyst, not an operative.
I did the same thing in the Air Force at NSA, so trust me, I know the difference.

She was outed by Cheney and Rove in 2003 which is before 2004 so she was not outed by her husband.

She was an operative. She had a cover job and had traveled overseas extensively. At the time of her outing she claimed to work for Brewster Jennings and Associates which had an address not at Langley.

Just because she did not do sabotage does not mean she did not have a protected identity as evidenced by the cover job.

Then why was it an "open secret" that she worked for CIA. It was a well known fact before Cheney and Rov were accused of outing her.
And they were cleared, you forget that.


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plame_affair
pay special attention to the Robert Novac part of this.
What the Wilsons say is what they want to believe, and what you want to believe.
And it has absolutely nothing to do with Benghazi.
See my where I explained the OJ defense to Politesub.

Let's boil this done to facts and not Republican spin.

Wilson did not out his wife because in 2004 when the book came out she had already been outed by Cheney and Rove (the facts are that somebody with clearance told Scooter and Cooper testified that Rove did out her, who told Rove of course remains a "mystery").

Novak can claim she was an analyst but that is also untrue by the facts. She had a cover job and had traveled extensively working in combating nuclear proliferation. While much of the details of her career with the CIA remains classified we do know she worked undercover both as a consular officer in Athens and that she worked as an "energy consultant" for the front company Brewster Jennings in the mid 90's in Brussels and again in the 2001 to 2003 period based out of D.C.. When Novak wrote that she worked for the CIA he ended her career and the careers of every CIA officer who had Brewster Jennings as a cover job or on their resumes and endangered the lives of every foreign contact of all those people. Do you really believe that the CIA would go to the trouble of creating a front company if the fact that Plame worked for the CIA was not classified?

As to it not being about Benghazi I made a statement of fact about W and you rushed to his defense so I felt it necessary to try and bring some reality to you on this.

Having you guide me to reality is like having de Sade guide me to compassion.
So only the word of someone who changed her story every time it came up is valid to you.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 364
RE: Benghazi - 8/8/2013 1:01:51 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Took that to mean that they weren't there.
They would have been outnumber by no more than three to one, no if about it they would have kicked ass and taken names.
Before you display the depth of your knowledge think about this.
If 4 guys with handguns could hold them off for 8 hours what would 50 marines do.


What four guys where ?


You aren't up on this at all are you.
Instead of beefing up the security force they cut it to four guys armed only with handguns.

Bullshit. First it was at least 5 guys plus the Libyans and they were armed with M4's.

The point still being that if instead of reducing the security detail they had added a platoon of marines they would have stopped it cold.
The Libyans didn't help.
Please don't tell me you think even 5 civilians, even with M4s are a reasonable security force in a country where the British had decided it was too dangerous to stay.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 365
RE: Benghazi - 8/8/2013 1:59:49 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Her husband had outed her long before in his book.
When you get your info from liars you are bound to be wrong.
You are aware, are you not, that she was an analyst, not an operative?

And what was the name of this book and on what date was it published?

A politics of Truth 2004
It was no secret that she worked at Langley, and that she was an analyst, not an operative.
I did the same thing in the Air Force at NSA, so trust me, I know the difference.

She was outed by Cheney and Rove in 2003 which is before 2004 so she was not outed by her husband.

She was an operative. She had a cover job and had traveled overseas extensively. At the time of her outing she claimed to work for Brewster Jennings and Associates which had an address not at Langley.

Just because she did not do sabotage does not mean she did not have a protected identity as evidenced by the cover job.

Then why was it an "open secret" that she worked for CIA. It was a well known fact before Cheney and Rov were accused of outing her.
And they were cleared, you forget that.


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plame_affair
pay special attention to the Robert Novac part of this.
What the Wilsons say is what they want to believe, and what you want to believe.
And it has absolutely nothing to do with Benghazi.
See my where I explained the OJ defense to Politesub.

Let's boil this done to facts and not Republican spin.

Wilson did not out his wife because in 2004 when the book came out she had already been outed by Cheney and Rove (the facts are that somebody with clearance told Scooter and Cooper testified that Rove did out her, who told Rove of course remains a "mystery").

Novak can claim she was an analyst but that is also untrue by the facts. She had a cover job and had traveled extensively working in combating nuclear proliferation. While much of the details of her career with the CIA remains classified we do know she worked undercover both as a consular officer in Athens and that she worked as an "energy consultant" for the front company Brewster Jennings in the mid 90's in Brussels and again in the 2001 to 2003 period based out of D.C.. When Novak wrote that she worked for the CIA he ended her career and the careers of every CIA officer who had Brewster Jennings as a cover job or on their resumes and endangered the lives of every foreign contact of all those people. Do you really believe that the CIA would go to the trouble of creating a front company if the fact that Plame worked for the CIA was not classified?

As to it not being about Benghazi I made a statement of fact about W and you rushed to his defense so I felt it necessary to try and bring some reality to you on this.

Having you guide me to reality is like having de Sade guide me to compassion.
So only the word of someone who changed her story every time it came up is valid to you.

If you cannot dispute the facts then what is there to even argue about.

You were wrong about the book. You were wrong about her being only an analyst. You were about Cheney.

It is long past time to accept this, the evidence is overwhelming that the W White House for strictly the basest of reasons outed a CIA agent involved in counter proliferation and in so doing ended the careers of a number of other agents and likely got US assets killed. That is what the Republican special prosecutor found.

You are complaining about me not accepting a truly asinine and unsupported conspiracy theory about Benghazi but you are rejecting overwhelming documentary evidence in the Plame scandal. What am I supposed to make of that?

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 366
RE: Benghazi - 8/8/2013 2:02:31 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Took that to mean that they weren't there.
They would have been outnumber by no more than three to one, no if about it they would have kicked ass and taken names.
Before you display the depth of your knowledge think about this.
If 4 guys with handguns could hold them off for 8 hours what would 50 marines do.


What four guys where ?


You aren't up on this at all are you.
Instead of beefing up the security force they cut it to four guys armed only with handguns.

Bullshit. First it was at least 5 guys plus the Libyans and they were armed with M4's.

The point still being that if instead of reducing the security detail they had added a platoon of marines they would have stopped it cold.
The Libyans didn't help.
Please don't tell me you think even 5 civilians, even with M4s are a reasonable security force in a country where the British had decided it was too dangerous to stay.

Funny, the friendly Libyans took casualties as well, at least 7. How did they do that if they were not involved?

I'm not sure a platoon of Marines would have stopped an assault by more than 100 fanatics. Maybe we would have held the consulate and maybe not.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 367
RE: Benghazi - 8/8/2013 2:10:08 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
I said at the outset of the armchair generalling that a couple platoons would be ideal, but lucky to get a couple of bare naked squads, let alone reinforced.

As it turns out, that wasn't even an available option.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 368
RE: Benghazi - 8/8/2013 2:17:39 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

I said at the outset of the armchair generalling that a couple platoons would be ideal, but lucky to get a couple of bare naked squads, let alone reinforced.

As it turns out, that wasn't even an available option.

Of course it was there had been violence around the British embassy and the American embassy for months, the CIA had word that there would be an attack somewhere on 9/11 and the Libyan Government said Benghazi was at particular risk. There was plenty of time. But the administration refused to accept that anyone would attack us. They had time to take guards out so they had time to move marines in.
Of course that would have meant more dead Arabs and the admin would prefer 4 dead Americans to 30 dead Arabs.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 369
RE: Benghazi - 8/8/2013 2:23:24 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
Yeah, more than half of that is pretty much bullshit. Nevertheless. Haliburton decided that they weren't getting paid for actual protection, just the idea of it, and marines at a couple platoons apiece in every Middle Eastern embassy with 9mils and 15s only wouldnt have gotten the job handled, most likely.

But why weren't all these things pointed out before hand from the military geniuses here?

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 370
RE: Benghazi - 8/8/2013 4:04:15 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Yeah, more than half of that is pretty much bullshit. Nevertheless. Haliburton decided that they weren't getting paid for actual protection, just the idea of it, and marines at a couple platoons apiece in every Middle Eastern embassy with 9mils and 15s only wouldnt have gotten the job handled, most likely.

But why weren't all these things pointed out before hand from the military geniuses here?

Beforehand? Like before we even knew there was a facility in Benghazi?

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 371
RE: Benghazi - 8/8/2013 4:40:18 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Firstly, the British Embassy in Benghazi pulled our staff out in June after a rocket attack on our ambassadors convoy, so your facts on that score are incorrect.

Since you say they had even more time than I thought they did it would seem that you would have say there was plenty of time to beef up security rather than reduce it, not that I expect you to.



Now you are putting words in my mouth.... I was simply correcting your errors.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 372
RE: Benghazi - 8/8/2013 4:45:26 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Firstly, the British Embassy in Benghazi pulled our staff out in June after a rocket attack on our ambassadors convoy, so your facts on that score are incorrect.

Since you say they had even more time than I thought they did it would seem that you would have say there was plenty of time to beef up security rather than reduce it, not that I expect you to.



Now you are putting words in my mouth.... I was simply correcting your errors.

Would seem that you would have to say is not putting words in your mouth, you sidestepped as expected

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 373
RE: Benghazi - 8/8/2013 5:03:29 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Fine I wouldn't expect you to agree with me no matter how obvious it is that I am right.


Obvious.......Another word you dont understand.

You said I agreed with you, I didnt and I dont. Is that plain enough for you.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 374
RE: Benghazi - 8/8/2013 5:06:46 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Fine I wouldn't expect you to agree with me no matter how obvious it is that I am right.


Obvious.......Another word you dont understand.

You said I agreed with you, I didnt and I dont. Is that plain enough for you.


Fine I wouldn't expect you to agree with me means I understand you don't agree, been speaking English long?

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 375
RE: Benghazi - 8/8/2013 5:15:51 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
Now you have switched from babbling about me to changing the facts each time someone proves you wrong.

First you got the dates wrong regards the attack on our ambassador, then you got the fact about the guards wrong.

Checking stuff isnt rocket science.


(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 376
RE: Benghazi - 8/8/2013 5:33:39 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Now you have switched from babbling about me to changing the facts each time someone proves you wrong.

First you got the dates wrong regards the attack on our ambassador, then you got the fact about the guards wrong.

Checking stuff isnt rocket science.



My basic point that due to the led they had there was plenty of time to send in adequate protection is not affected by the minor points you have brought up.
Some reports give the 4 man handgun description of the guard so that is just a matter of what report you see.
Do you or do you not understand that with three months warning from the time the British ran out they had time to bring in as much protection as they provided the safe site of the Paris embassy?
Do you or do you not comprehend how totally outclassed the attackers would have been by that platoon of marines.
The only "facts" I have on there being one extra man and that they had M4s would be you and Kendom, sources as good as bugs bunny.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 377
RE: Benghazi - 8/9/2013 4:07:06 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

My basic point that due to the led they had there was plenty of time to send in adequate protection is not affected by the minor points you have brought up.
Some reports give the 4 man handgun description of the guard so that is just a matter of what report you see.
Do you or do you not understand that with three months warning from the time the British ran out they had time to bring in as much protection as they provided the safe site of the Paris embassy?
Do you or do you not comprehend how totally outclassed the attackers would have been by that platoon of marines.
The only "facts" I have on there being one extra man and that they had M4s would be you and Kendom, sources as good as bugs bunny.


Good to see you feel that the House Oversight Committee is a source as good as Bugs Bunny.

I cant argue with that kind of logic, can I ?

http://oversight.house.gov/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/2012-10-09-Lamb-Testimony-FINAL1.pdf




(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 378
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