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RE: What isthe making of a a Master? What is making of ... - 7/2/2006 10:36:24 PM   
slavejali


Posts: 2918
Status: offline
celticfire:

Without getting into a lot of stuff...just wanted to say, the main thing to keep in mind is the reality that there has never been a book written of BDSM LAW which every person participating in bdsm has voted on and agreed to as the living truth.

I would always take just a little step back when anyone says " This is the way it is, or, this is the way it was..". unless its your very own Master and then whatever he says is the "living law" for the both of you.


Addition:

Here's kinda how I view it.

I've met all kindsa Masters. Masters of skill and technique in their appropriate field of expertise, to people who have mastered themselves. None of those things have anything to do with bdsm or Master/slave relationship, however some of the qualities those people had would be useful to any bdsm relationship.

Within the cult of bdsm, names and titles have been forumulated. The thing is, there is no written rule anywhere that says "this is what you call this person who is this", not really. Sure we can try to define people, but considering everyone has a different take on things, its really hard to find a common langauge, cuz there just isnt one. Using myself as an example, if someone asked me to call them Master or Mistress such and such, I wouldnt blink an eye and would call them what they wanted. Someone else might just freak and think "who the hell do they think they are wanting me to call them that?!!!". Who is right and who is wrong? There is no rule to decide, its an individual thing. I would do it because I really get into formalities, love it..doesnt make me a better slave or less a slave than anyone else who has a differing view.

So in my mind the word "Master" is a title within our bdsm cult...and has little, if anything to do with someone "being" a master of self or skill. When I would use "Master" or even "Sir" within a bdsm context, I'm playing with my love of the roles and formalities within bdsm and the life in which I just wrap myself up in. I'm self confident enough not to get lost in any power trips or percieved lack of power by the simple recognition of calling someone a title they wish.

I dont know if I lost track of the topic there..but they are the thoughts that came.

< Message edited by slavejali -- 7/2/2006 11:19:14 PM >


_____________________________

Freedom in Bondage

Different Strokes for Different Folks

"I'll always have a *soft spot* for Sadists"

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RE: What isthe making of a a Master? What is making of ... - 7/2/2006 11:31:31 PM   
Caretakr


Posts: 1221
Joined: 6/24/2006
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I see it pretty much that way too, slavejali. I don't really care if someone wants to be called "supreme dorkola".  I'll do it out of the aspect of fun- and mutual role playing- it doesn't carry any real import with me. It's been watered down to the extent of being meaningless.

But if some stranger just casually sidles up to me, and asks me to interact in a control dynamic with them....I'm likely to ask them if they forgot  to take thier meds  before they came to the party.

< Message edited by Caretakr -- 7/2/2006 11:32:36 PM >

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RE: What isthe making of a a Master? What is making of ... - 7/3/2006 12:32:57 AM   
TNstepsout


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I think a true Master is not in need of a title.  

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RE: What isthe making of a a Master? What is making of ... - 7/3/2006 4:19:27 AM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TNstepsout

I think a true Master is not in need of a title.  


Sounds reasonable. If one has mastered themself, would they have an insecure need to point it out to others???

(in reply to TNstepsout)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: What isthe making of a a Master? What is making of ... - 7/3/2006 5:42:41 AM   
candleTC


Posts: 148
Joined: 5/8/2006
From: Springfield, Il
Status: offline
quote:

Sounds reasonable. If one has mastered themself, would they have an insecure need to point it out to others???


Is a girl "choosing" to call her Master as such, fulfilling a "need" to Him.  No.  I don't think so.  Granted there are some that expect that everyone they see to refer to them as "Master", however a Master that is comfortable in His own skin, title, Dominance, etc...i don't think would ever expect it.  For most, living in the real world, i don't find it as a *need* to point out to others... it's just a thang, that we do.

_____________________________

"On my knees, i think clearer"

~Thoughts are like arrows: once released, they strike their mark. Guard them well or one day you may be your own victim. - Navajo Proverb~

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RE: What isthe making of a a Master? What is making of ... - 7/3/2006 6:20:52 AM   
TolerableCruelty


Posts: 447
Joined: 2/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Perhaps reading comprehension is another trait you lack.

No... I think I got the jist of what you were trying to convey quite well, thanks. I just found the irony of you saying it rather humorous.

quote:

Well not quite true, I have never whined about whatever BDSM titles they choose to cling too but I do laugh when they thump their chests about being warriors.

As I stated earlier... you've obviously not met the Goreans I have. I'm not saying I know them all... but the few I've met face to face and had the pleasure of getting to know, were mostly ex-military and/or ex-police officers... all of them in the line of fire at one time or another, and none of them scared to do so again... should the need arise.

I could continue... but after reading your profile... I see you, yourself, lack some important traits.... or hate them, by your admission, at the very least...so since there is no chance of Me tricking you into intelligent discourse... I'll just move on.

well wishes,
T.R.
edited to add : I have, in fact served in the military, yet I still don't claim Myself to be a "warrior" of Gor... and I can't recall the last time I've ever proclaimed Myself a Master (save for describing Myself in My profile here on CM) OR insisted its use when addressing Me... from anyone. Common Courtesy is all I require.

< Message edited by TolerableCruelty -- 7/3/2006 6:24:23 AM >


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I'm sorry if I've offended you.... but maybe you needed to be offended

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RE: What isthe making of a a Master? What is making of ... - 7/3/2006 6:52:47 AM   
MrRodgers


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Iam old-school and will ruffle some feathers here for sure...but..."the making of a Master" is a slave. A 'master' is not a 'master' unless and until he has a collared slave...for otherwise, he masters no one. Same for a slave, but her personality can reflect a devout willingness to serve...her life becoming a pleasure to serve and obey. Same with a submissive person who often reflect their submissive personalities, even in the vanilla world. For me, to be a master/mistress there is a certain Rubicon that must be crossed and that is ownership of another. A man can be a dominant with a dominant personality as opposed to merely domineering, which is only attitude. Domineering is a temporary 'act' within a particular setting, a dominant personality is however, 24/7 but measured and most often unrevealed until it is necessary.

Let us stop now referring to 'true' doms/subs or 'true' masters/mistresses as to use those terms is merely semantic vanity...isn't it ? (we know more about the subject at hand and the words we use because of the words we use) like 'value' voters and 'I write music from the heart,' and horny slut. Well, ok horny slut is not, and is actually a redundancy.

I can be a math master...a music master...with many various possibilities there. Iam not a master of a person until that person is my slave...owned.

(in reply to TolerableCruelty)
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RE: What isthe making of a a Master? What is making of ... - 7/3/2006 7:08:46 AM   
CrappyDom


Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
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Ladyhugs,

Once again you step to provide your immense storehouse of self appointed truth to defend gorians.  For the first time I think you defending the gorians is perfect.  Perhaps you can put out a CD based on talking to groups of two and three.

As for gorians being ex military, it is both the "ex" part I find interesting and which MOS they served in that is laughable.

Wankers the lot.

(in reply to LadyHugs)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: What isthe making of a a Master? What is making of ... - 7/3/2006 9:39:51 AM   
celticfirelite


Posts: 95
Joined: 6/3/2006
Status: offline
Greetings Masters,
Greetings Mistresses,
Greetings slaves,

This slave thanks All for your input and has taught this one some very important lessons. This girl would never say anything disrespectful to a Master or Mistress (no matter what they say) This slave knows her place. When someone (anyone )has ideas differnt from this ones, she listens and learns .If the person is angry one can listen to the point made and look beyond the anger.

A slave is not allowed to respond in anger or to speak out of her place. This one sees many with issues and has found it is best to validate what they have said as to their point,( in other words they have been heard) but will not allow herself to get into any form of arguement, no matter how tempting..
This one is older than most here, but has learned from experience these things.
This one lives by and teaches her grand kids a couple of rules to live by(among many)

1.Hatred destroys the hater..it doesn't bother the person or object that is hated. It only serves to eat  away at  the haters soul until is consumes them or destroys them.

2. When one points a finger at someone else..one points 3 back at ones self. Often times one owns  something what one is most critical of. What one fears within,what one can't control one either ignores it, criticizes it, or hates it.
Sometimes it is best to consider all options first.

Be well Masters,
Be well mistresses,
Be well slaves,

melinda {MH}
Property of Master Hassan
House of Hassan




_____________________________

"The love of a slave girl is the deepest and most profound love that any woman can give a man. Love makes a woman a mans slave, and the wholeness of that love requires that she be, in truth, his slave." John Norman - Magicians of Gor


(in reply to CrappyDom)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: What isthe making of a a Master? What is making of ... - 7/3/2006 9:44:23 AM   
Caretakr


Posts: 1221
Joined: 6/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: celticfirelite

Greetings Masters,
Greetings Mistresses,
Greetings slaves,

This slave thanks All for your input and has taught this one some very important lessons. This girl would never say anything disrespectful to a Master or Mistress (no matter what they say) This slave knows her place. When someone (anyone )has ideas differnt from this ones, she listens and learns .If the person is angry one can listen to the point made and look beyond the anger.

A slave is not allowed to respond in anger or to speak out of her place. This one sees many with issues and has found it is best to validate what they have said as to their point,( in other words they have been heard) but will not allow herself to get into any form of arguement, no matter how tempting..
This one is older than most here, but has learned from experience these things.
This one lives by and teaches her grand kids a couple of rules to live by(among many)

1.Hatred destroys the hater..it doesn't bother the person or object that is hated. It only serves to eat  away at  the haters soul until is consumes them or destroys them.

2. When one points a finger at someone else..one points 3 back at ones self. Often times one owns  something what one is most critical of. What one fears within,what one can't control one either ignores it, criticizes it, or hates it.
Sometimes it is best to consider all options first.

Be well Masters,
Be well mistresses,
Be well slaves,

melinda {MH}
Property of Master Hassan
House of Hassan





Nodding...hatred is like eating drano-and I am not a masochist.

(in reply to celticfirelite)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: What isthe making of a a Master? What is making of ... - 7/3/2006 12:17:34 PM   
LadyHugs


Posts: 2299
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
Dear CrappyDom,
 
It is not so much that  I am defending Gorean style and those who participate it.  They can defend themselves just fine.  That said, what I am speaking up about, is the conduct you continue to display which continues to be unkind and has malicious intent.
 
The fact is, that when people as individuals and or as a group and or a community, tolerate an individual and or group and or community, to which uses means to insult, injure, stir up trouble and or provoking war like responses, much like a bully, tyrant, dictator and a person having a daily tirade and enjoy doing so--we are no better than that bully, tirant, dictator or instigator or that which provokes, baits and tempts others into war. 
 
I personally disagree with the treatment shown towards others and other styles which have a place on CM.  You have certainly displayed more than malicious, insulting and personal attacks on me which is a fact.  But, consider this CrappyDom and heed well.  Not many have openly spoken up against your unkindness and your intention to inflame others however, should you become the victim of similar unkindness; I will most likely speak up for you with the same passion as I speak up for others ill treated.
 
Submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs

(in reply to CrappyDom)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: What isthe making of a a Master? What is making of ... - 7/3/2006 12:28:49 PM   
Caretakr


Posts: 1221
Joined: 6/24/2006
Status: offline
The ignore feature is also quite wonderful.

(in reply to LadyHugs)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: What isthe making of a a Master? What is making of ... - 7/3/2006 12:33:06 PM   
impishlilhellcat


Posts: 4379
Joined: 3/26/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Caretakr

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticfirelite

Greetings Masters,
Greetings Mistresses,
Greetings slaves,

This slave thanks All for your input and has taught this one some very important lessons. This girl would never say anything disrespectful to a Master or Mistress (no matter what they say) This slave knows her place. When someone (anyone )has ideas differnt from this ones, she listens and learns .If the person is angry one can listen to the point made and look beyond the anger.

A slave is not allowed to respond in anger or to speak out of her place. This one sees many with issues and has found it is best to validate what they have said as to their point,( in other words they have been heard) but will not allow herself to get into any form of arguement, no matter how tempting..
This one is older than most here, but has learned from experience these things.
This one lives by and teaches her grand kids a couple of rules to live by(among many)

1.Hatred destroys the hater..it doesn't bother the person or object that is hated. It only serves to eat  away at  the haters soul until is consumes them or destroys them.

2. When one points a finger at someone else..one points 3 back at ones self. Often times one owns  something what one is most critical of. What one fears within,what one can't control one either ignores it, criticizes it, or hates it.
Sometimes it is best to consider all options first.

Be well Masters,
Be well mistresses,
Be well slaves,

melinda {MH}
Property of Master Hassan
House of Hassan





Nodding...hatred is like eating drano-and I am not a masochist.


I'm a masochist and even I wouldn't eat drano bleck

_____________________________

Anyone who says they have only one life to live must not know how to read a book - Unknown

(in reply to Caretakr)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: What isthe making of a a Master? What is making of ... - 7/3/2006 1:41:26 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom

Starts peeing in the snow...

My sword was hand forged by Jim Hrisoulas and if you don't know who he is, you don't know enough to even unsheath one against me.  Despite having a boring amount of guns, it has always been the only weapon I keep at my bedside. 

My money is still on the drag queen though, especially if a gorian says she looks fat in that dress.


FUCK IT HE IS NOT WORTHY OF A SERIOUS COMMENT LET ALONE A CHALLANGE.....


< Message edited by IronBear -- 7/3/2006 1:46:34 PM >


_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to CrappyDom)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: What isthe making of a a Master? What is making of ... - 7/3/2006 2:02:38 PM   
LadySpanks


Posts: 5
Joined: 7/3/2006
Status: offline
There are NO set rules on WHAT makes a Master, A Master.  Nor, are there set in stone rules on what makes a slave, a slave.  It is up to each individual and the relationship they are in.

I would NEVER expect another Domme to be JUST like Me. I do however have preferences in what My subs and/or slaves should do to please Me. 

As far as the Old Guard and Gorean lifetsyles and rules go, I dont have enough knowledge/desire to know more  about them to make an opinion, but do however, as a Dominant, feel as though they are lifestyles that should not be taken lightly for they as just as worthy as any other type of lifestyle. 

(in reply to LadyHugs)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: What isthe making of a a Master? What is making of ... - 7/3/2006 3:12:40 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline
There is one killjoy posting app[arently with impunity from moderation and who is well known for his hatred of Goreans, Sadly he not only attacks a post (that is ok y me) but attacks the posters too, especially if they identify as Gorean (Mostly he seems to attack slaves and females too (So much for is courage). I will be glad to give him a free demonstration of the haughtytallywackerwithnobrainsattached Flaying machine I am constructing to bring one or three down to size. I'd wager he would never show his face or any part of him here again.. However that wont happen and I doubt if the Mods will moderate him for his virilant attacks either....Best thigs to do is ignor the sod and not feed him. My late Sensai used to say that a headless corps never neeed feeding and only needed to be removed with the garbage.. Same applies with this troll.

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to LadySpanks)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: What isthe making of a a Master? What is making of ... - 7/3/2006 7:18:50 PM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline
Celticfirelite, I'm going to take a different approach in my response than others.  In fact I'm going to suggest an entirely different perspective to consider.

Reading over many of the posts in this thread and others like it about "masters" one thing becomes very clear, most consider "master" to be a title.  From this then stems all the arguments about how that title should be earned, who deserves it, who awards it, when it can be taken away, what qualifies someone as a master, etc.  All because its very commonly viewed as a title.

To my mind, viewing it as a title is simply a bad idea.  But before I go further I think its a good idea to explain why I think its a bad idea.

First is the obvious I've already touched on.  If you view it as a title then there are all those questions about qualifications, how the title is earned, who awards it, etc.  These invariably spawn arguments because the reality is there is no one to set any universal standard for any of these things.

In addition, I see submissives seeking to associate various qualities with the title as a kind of short cut in determining who is a good dominant and who isn't.  Often, for example, you see discussions about what a master should be, that he should be responsible, that he should be sane, that he should be safey conscious, that he should be honorable, and so on.  All these things are qualities a person might or might not possess.  But there is only one reason to associate all these qualities with the title of "master" and that is as a short cut to determining the character of an individual.  That is, if it can be said that a person can only be a master if they are honorable, saftey conscious, honest, responsible, etc... then one can say that a person who has earned the title of master must therefore be all those things.  Its an attempt to make the title of "master" mean all those other things and thus a shortcut to who is okay and who isn't.  The two problems with this are that first, in reality this is often not true, there are many who call themselves "master" who are none of those things, nor is there any way to restrict who calls themself a master.  Second, at its root a master is really only one thing, someone who does or seeks to own a slave(s).  I'll come back to that point below.

The second problem with viewing it as a title is on the other end, those that seek it.  By treating "master" as a title a degree of authority, or at least the appearance of it, gets associated with it.  And as a result you get people who have it in their heads that just because they use the title they have authority over others... which gives rise to the cliche' "on your knees slut" said to random submissives.  The reality is the title confers no real authority at all, its is not the source of authority for a dominant.  Yet there are many who seek authority in a title precisely because that's the only source of authority they know, they have none of their own (and don't know how to achieve it any other way).  John Maxwell called this form of authority from titles "positional authority" and he identified it as the weakest form of authority there is.  In the cases where a title actually does grant some authority, people obey you only because of the title, not the person.  For a dominant this should be unacceptable, they want to be obeyed for who they are, not any title they possess.  For dominants, their authority comes from within themselves.

So if "master" isn't a title, what is it then?  And my answer is, its an orientation.  To explain exactly what I mean by that, let me compare it to sexual orientation.  If you are "straight" you seek a heterosexual relationship, that is the approach or orientation of a straight person to a sexual relationship.  Conversely someone who is gay seeks a homosexual approach to a sexual relationship.

Thus if master is an orientation, then it describes not a title or a position, but an approach to a personal relationship... that of master and slave, dominance and submission, or, as I said above someone who seeks to own a slave as the basis of their relationship.  Conversely, a slave also is not a title but an orientation, one that seeks to be the slave half of that relationship.  A master seeks to own a slave, a slave seeks to be owned... this is the context of the relationship they seek.

The advantage to viewing "master" and "slave" as orientations is that it leaves very little to argue about.  Whether an individual "master" or "slave" is competent, sane, responsible, etc. become judgements that have to be made individually.  There is no longer any deeper meaning to being a master, anymore than there is to being straight or bi or gay.  Its simply a descriptor of the kind of relationship you seek, no more, no less.  Thus, since I am a straight master, you may safely assume from that brief statement that I seek to own a female slave as the basis of our relationship.  But that is all you can assume from that statement, whether I'm competent to do that, responsible in how I do it, etc. are all still determinations you'll have to make about me as an individual.

And this fits with reality too, because there will always be good masters, bad masters, mediocre masters, incompetent masters, skilled masters, sadistic masters, and various combinations thereof... but these become descriptions of individuals, not an attempt at a monolithic description of an entire group.  The same is true of slaves, there are and always will be the good and the bad and lots that are somewhere inbetween.

Consider it food for thought.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to celticfirelite)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: What isthe making of a a Master? What is making of ... - 7/3/2006 7:52:13 PM   
slavejali


Posts: 2918
Status: offline
I agree with the underlaying theme of your post Padriag...but dont know what you;ve got against the word "title" and have to sustitute it for "orientation". You said yourself, people can have all sorts of titles, but it doesnt mean they are good, bad or indifferent to it.

I think people just have to get over their preconcieved ideas about what a Master is within bdsm context...there is never ever gonna be any time when everyone agrees to the same meaning..so best thing is to just let the whole thing go..and see it as a word that denotes someones "orientation within BDSM" and its a "title" for that *grin*

_____________________________

Freedom in Bondage

Different Strokes for Different Folks

"I'll always have a *soft spot* for Sadists"

(in reply to Padriag)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: What isthe making of a a Master? What is making of ... - 7/3/2006 8:29:19 PM   
CrappyDom


Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline

Hugs,

As usual, your grasp of things is shallow at best.  I did not attack the way gorians do things, nor their right to do them.  I just mocked their self-proclaimed ownership of things like being the only warriors/brave/noble/what have you. 

I poke fun at those who take themselves too seriously and I think you are their queen on CM.  I have pointed out where I believe you are wrong, pompous, even idiotic, but I have never attacked you as a person.  Your posts are chock full of “the one true way” crap and I point that out.  You constantly make claims of “how it was done” that are at best myopic and at worst brazen bs and I point that out.

In a thread where you spoke of your vast experience dealing with groups I asked you the size of those groups before which you lectured and it turns out you were talking about groups with 15 members of which only a handful (as if 15 isn’t a handful already) showed up to your lectures.  Upon this vast molehill of experience you create a CD with your wisdom.

If I laugh and poke fun at that claim it doesn’t mean I am attacking you.  If I said you were a doo doo head, that would be attacking you.  If I said the better part of you dribbled down your mother’s leg, that would be attacking you but I have not and would not stoop to that level.

Remember, it wasn’t I that in a thread about high protocol offered the tidbit of wisdom to reheat TV dinners and put them on real plates and serve them to unsuspecting guests as part of your formal dinner idea.

As for being unkind, you have no idea how kind to you I have been,

Most sincerely,
Michael

(in reply to slavejali)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: What isthe making of a a Master? What is making of ... - 7/3/2006 8:41:15 PM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline
Because the two terms are not synonyms, and its not merely substituting one term for another.  A title is a rank, an orientation is a behavior... they are far from being the same thing.  I had thought I had explained this very clearly.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to slavejali)
Profile   Post #: 40
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