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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/14/2013 5:06:02 PM

LookieNoNookie

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Jesus Christ existed.

He was real.

According to some, he was the Messiah....to others he was some dude....

He did, in fact, walk the Earth.

(That's a fact).

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/14/2013 5:09:20 PM

deathtothepixies

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but he wasn't the son of god

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/14/2013 5:13:04 PM

Yachtie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies

but he wasn't the son of god

Says who?

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/14/2013 5:13:48 PM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso

On the balance of the historical evidence, it is highly unlikely the census happened. And that's the closest I get to a categorical statement when it comes to ancient history. Obviously, it can still be taken as a faith position. But it's doing so against the evidence. Which, naturally, isn't a problem for Biblical literalists, who have always considered scholarship to be irrelevant if it conflicts with the Bible.

Depends if one believes Josephus or not, and what he says about the Census of Quirinius.

Date is wrong, manner of census does not match the account in Luke, why for instance would a census in Judea affect a citizen of Galilee? And what kind of ruler would order all of his subjects to travel to some ancestral home to be counted? How disruptive would that have been? How would ancestral homes even be defined?

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/14/2013 5:14:59 PM

deathtothepixies

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

quote:

ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies

but he wasn't the son of god

Says who?

Me, prove he was

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/14/2013 5:26:03 PM

Yachtie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

quote:

ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies

but he wasn't the son of god

Says who?

Me, prove he was

Produce the body.

_____________________________

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/14/2013 5:29:07 PM

deathtothepixies

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epic fail

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/14/2013 5:50:07 PM

Apocalypso

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Date is wrong, manner of census does not match the account in Luke, why for instance would a census in Judea affect a citizen of Galilee? And what kind of ruler would order all of his subjects to travel to some ancestral home to be counted? How disruptive would that have been? How would ancestral homes even be defined?

And before 6 AD Judaea wasn't under the direct control of Rome anyway. It was a client kingdom. There's no way a census would be conducted in a kingdom with that status; it would have been a diplomatic catastrophe. In fact, it almost started a war in 6 AD when it did happen.

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/14/2013 6:03:43 PM

TigressLily

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Apocalypso, I was referencing yours & Yachtie's posts as part of substantiating one of the points I was implying (as I inferred you had a question about why I quoted you).

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso

I assume that you're seeing Matthew as describing the genealogy of Joseph and Luke as describing the genealogy of Mary? That's as good an explanation as any, although there's absolutely no Biblical mention of it. (Which shows that Christians have to interpret the Bible as well. No Christian can base their faith solely on what the Bible says, despite claims otherwise).

I'll just point out a couple of details about those "genealogies."
1) Jewish lineage is traced through the mother and neither of those mentions Mary at all.
2) Why would Joseph's lineage matter at all? Remember that the myth is that Mary was impregnated by a spirit while still an unmarried virgin

The passages in question are considered some of the best evidence that the Synoptics and the underlying Q document were written by Greeks, possibly of Jewish descent, not familiar with Jewish law and tradition and were written to make the Christian sect acceptable as a mystery cult. Virgin births, turning water into wine and resurrections were big in mystery cults. I think we even have a remnant of the old levels of initiation with the mystery of the loaves and fishes.

1) Can you be certain this has always been observed matrilineally? It's the most sensible way to determine descent, I agree. Everyone who hasn't been separated at birth knows who his/her mother is. One of my best friend's Jewish mothers in junior high & high school had explained to me that this practice came about due to all the invasions & migrations of the Hebrews in their war-torn history. There had to be certainty of Jewish blood, which even if a Jewish female was raped by a foreign soldier, would still make the child of verifiable Jewish descent. I believe this may have been an adaptation due to unfortunate circumstances. The Hebrews were a patriarchal society from the time of Abraham, their first patriarch.
Per http://www.complete-bible-genealogy.com/genealogy_of_jesus.htm
"Considering the fact that by the Jewish tradition women are never listed in the genealogical links, it is acceptable that Luke[3:23-38] lists Joseph instead of Mary (as he was the "father" of Jesus) and thus Luke names Joseph as son of Heli. Further, since Heli had no sons but only daughters, we can find a precedent of the same type of name substitution in Num 27:1-11 and Num 36:1-12."

(Correction: I meant 2 sets of 14 generations from King David.) Furthermore:
2) "... therefore we can see that this is the 'royal line' and it shows the legal right to David's throne being passed down all the way to Joseph who adopted Jesus, thus making him the heir of David's kingdom.
"Since the right to the kingdom always passes from the father to the son, we can conclude that Matthew's genealogy lists Jesus' ancestors through his 'father', Joseph.
"Jesus was called the 'son of David' in Mat 1:1, which is a clear reference to his right to inherit David's throne."

Geneological Chart: http://amazingbibletimeline.com/free-genealogy-of-jesus-christ-e-chart/

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/14/2013 6:20:44 PM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TigressLily
1) Can you be certain this has always been observed matrilineally? It's the most sensible way to determine descent, I agree. Everyone who hasn't been separated at birth knows who his/her mother is. One of my best friend's Jewish mothers in junior high & high school had explained to me that this practice came about due to all the invasions & migrations of the Hebrews in their war-torn history. There had to be certainty of Jewish blood, which even if a Jewish female was raped by a foreign soldier, would still make the child of verifiable Jewish descent. I believe this may have been an adaptation due to unfortunate circumstances. The Hebrews were a patriarchal society from the time of Abraham, their first patriarch.

It began sometime between the 4th century BCE and the beginning of Roman rule. It was certainly the standard by the time the Gospels were written.

There is a difference between being a patriarchal society, i.e. male rule, and a matrilineal society, i.e. lineage is traced through the mother. They are not incompatible.

You really should accept that the bible is not literally true. A lot of apologists have spent considerable time and effort trying to make it all work together and I, not a biblical scholar, can tear it all down very quickly with one unanswerable question, how many animals of each kind were on the ark?

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/14/2013 6:29:00 PM

LookieNoNookie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies

but he wasn't the son of god

So you...and (many) others say.

(I don't recall that being the question).

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/14/2013 6:30:17 PM

LookieNoNookie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

quote:

ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies

but he wasn't the son of god

Says who?

Says many.

(That, however, don't make it so).

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/14/2013 6:31:46 PM

LookieNoNookie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

quote:

ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies

but he wasn't the son of god

Says who?

Me, prove he was

Prove he wasn't.

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/14/2013 6:40:42 PM

LookieNoNookie

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It always amazes me, those that question Jesus/God/Greater being...pick your favorite nomenclature....I have mine...I'll never impose mine on others (or others lack therein) but truly....those that don't believe there was some higher power in all this, you astound me.

This is no less than an amazing place...here...where we are. The rest of it...everything we've (so far) seen, and everything we haven't...and everything we'll all see and understand before we leave...leaves me in wonder every day.

Not much else to add.

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/14/2013 7:24:53 PM

vincentML

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quote:

It always amazes me, those that question Jesus/God/Greater being...pick your favorite nomenclature....I have mine...I'll never impose mine on others (or others lack therein) but truly....those that don't believe there was some higher power in all this, you astound me.

I fail to understand your amazement at pushback against a 2000 year history of church persecutions, oppression, torture and murder imposed upon unbelievers and Jews and a continuing attempt by many present day Christians to impose their social doctrines on the rest of us. It is astonishing to witness the delusional whining and pouting by members of our majority religious claiming they are victimized by secularists. As if

quote:

This is no less than an amazing place...here...where we are. The rest of it...everything we've (so far) seen, and everything we haven't...and everything we'll all see and understand before we leave...leaves me in wonder every day.

There is much to wonder at in nature and this universe. It is magnificent. But it is not all benign. In addition to the beauty we perceive so easily and eagerly there are enormous amounts of suffering and catastrophes among humanity and all other species, which are so conveniently ignored in discourse like this. Two billion people subsist on no more than $2.00 per day. Five million children die every year before age five. And each year hurricanes, earthquakes, tsunamis, tornados, volcanoes, forest fires, blizzards, etc. kill countless of innocents. Yep, gotta wonder at the inequality of divine mercy in this world.

Just a few ideas for the faithful to ponder.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 10/14/2013 7:50:46 PM >

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/14/2013 7:31:57 PM

TigressLily

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The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob/Israel sounds patrilineal to me. Now, the God of Abraham and Ishmael would not denote a person of Jewish descent. Semitic, but not Jewish.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: TigressLily
1) Can you be certain this has always been observed matrilineally? It's the most sensible way to determine descent, I agree. Everyone who hasn't been separated at birth knows who his/her mother is. One of my best friend's Jewish mothers in junior high & high school had explained to me that this practice came about due to all the invasions & migrations of the Hebrews in their war-torn history. There had to be certainty of Jewish blood, which even if a Jewish female was raped by a foreign soldier, would still make the child of verifiable Jewish descent. I believe this may have been an adaptation due to unfortunate circumstances. The Hebrews were a patriarchal society from the time of Abraham, their first patriarch.

It began sometime between the 4th century BCE and the beginning of Roman rule. It was certainly the standard by the time the Gospels were written.

There is a difference between being a patriarchal society, i.e. male rule, and a matrilineal society, i.e. lineage is traced through the mother. They are not incompatible.

You really should accept that the bible is not literally true. A lot of apologists have spent considerable time and effort trying to make it all work together and I, not a biblical scholar, can tear it all down very quickly with one unanswerable question, how many animals of each kind were on the ark?

There was one pair of every unclean creature and 7 pairs of every clean animal, namely that which was safe to consume. (Gen 7:2,8-9,15) A lot of people get this wrong. Consequently, the clean animals were taken in pairs of 7 each, so they still went into the ark two by two, just like the unclean ones did.

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/14/2013 8:25:09 PM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TigressLily
There was one pair of every unclean creature and 7 pairs of every clean animal, namely that which was safe to consume. (Gen 7:2,8-9,15) A lot of people get this wrong. Consequently, the clean animals were taken in pairs of 7 each, so they still went into the ark two by two, just like the unclean ones did.

That is not what the bible says.
Genesis chapter 6

quote:

6:19 And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.
6:20 Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive.

Genesis chapter 7

quote:

7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.
7:3 Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.

It is simply impossible to make 2 = 14.

There are numerous other direct contradictions like this.

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/14/2013 8:35:39 PM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

quote:

ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

quote:

ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies
but he wasn't the son of god

Says who?

Me, prove he was

Prove he wasn't.

There's a unicorn in this jar, prove there isn't.

Attachment (1)

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/14/2013 8:47:04 PM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie
Jesus Christ existed.

He was real.

According to some, he was the Messiah....to others he was some dude....

He did, in fact, walk the Earth.

(That's a fact).

*face palm*
That's like saying Santa Claus was real.

I mean if the crazy hobo err I mean prophet existed he wouldn't have even been named Jesus and that's actually a fact: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeshua_%28name%29#Original_name_for_Jesus

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/14/2013 9:47:20 PM

NoBimbosAllowed

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yes, but many people had the same attitude towards Dutch sailors speaking tales of the Kraken, and now we have a Colossal Squid's carcass in a big-ass glass cage in the Museum of Natural History in Britain. and another carcass of Archituthis Dux in the Antipodes.

No one believed we could put THOSE in a jar either, and thought belief in the tentacled monsters were the same as belief in pixies and magic bunnies giving chocolate eggs.

Well, there were eggs, on quite a few "scientific" faces, after the tentacles with hooks in the suckers were weighed.

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