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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/10/2013 10:14:18 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

From 2 Kings chapter 2

quote:

2:23 And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
2:24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

Well, that's closer. But it's still just a cautionary tale about disrespect for your elders, and the unanticipated consequences that can follow upon mocking and taunting someone. I'd rate it as more of a fairy tale than a religious myth. But more directly to the point, it doesn't encourage or glorify mayhem and violence by man against man.

K.

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/10/2013 10:28:01 AM

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…16All your enemies Have opened their mouths wide against you; They hiss and gnash their teeth. They say, "We have swallowed her up! Surely this is the day for which we waited; We have reached it, we have seen it." 17The LORD has done what He purposed; He has accomplished His word Which He commanded from days of old. He has thrown down without sparing, And He has caused the enemy to rejoice over you; He has exalted the might of your adversaries. 18Their heart cried out to the Lord, "O wall of the daughter of Zion, Let your tears run down like a river day and night; Give yourself no relief, Let your eyes have no rest.…

Lamentations.

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/10/2013 10:28:17 AM

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FR

it's like reading a creationist article, so he claims it's been invented by an the imperor that ruled after roman historians talked about christians because he found an unproved clue...

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/10/2013 10:28:57 AM

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The best defense is a good offense. Especially when you're surrounded by hostile nations.

Then again, sometimes the best defense is . . . a good defense.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Nehemiah 4:17-18
Luke 22:36
Psalms 144:1
Judges 5:8
1 Samuel 25:13
Exodus 22:2

Oh, and much much more.

(Man, that was quick of you to rustle these up.)

As for 2 Kings 2, those passages recount what transpired when the bald-headed prophet was mocked. It's a statement of fact, not a rallying cry.*

* Which also serves the purpose of imparting a teaching lesson/warning to children not to go around mocking prophets lest they meet with a similar fate.

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/10/2013 10:31:32 AM

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Well those were listed as god wants us to have guns in another fuckwitted thread. I just copied them.

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/10/2013 10:35:56 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Oh, well then; Sodom and Gemorrah, The Ark, Revelations. And so on.

Well the story of Sodom and Gemorrah is certainly a story. And, it's got a "god" in it. But beyond that, it's basically just a hairy-scary version of the old "if you keep doing that, it'll fall off" bit, scaled-up to scare the shit out of adults. The most obvious way that it fails as a religious myth lies in the fact that it's simply not true, and (as we all know) easily proven to be bullshit.

And too, it doesn't encourage and glorify mayhem and violence by man against man.

The story of Noah's Ark, on the other hand, has elements of a religious myth. And not one unique to the Hebrews. Though interestingly enough, flood stories are so ubiquitous, and so many have no divine character in them, that they've given rise to the speculation that they may reflect long-handed down memories of a real event that occurred at some time in the past.

But in any case, it doesn't encourage and glorify mayhem and violence by man against man either.

I'm not sufficiently familiar with Revelations to have an answer off the top of my head. Apocalyptic literature falls outside my reading.

Lunch break.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 10/10/2013 10:39:29 AM >

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/10/2013 10:41:37 AM

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Ah so we have to find something immune to kvetching and mincing and rather disingenuous arguments why it is not a religious myth then.

define religious.
define myth.

myth

1. a traditional story, esp. one concerning the early history of a people or explaining some natural or social phenomenon, and typically involving supernatural beings or events.

synonyms: folk tale, folk story, legend, tale, story, fable, saga, mythos, lore, folklore, mythology More
traditional stories or legends collectively.
"the heroes of Greek myth"

2. a widely held but false belief or idea.

then religious myth.

Because your twisting and writhing is akin to the I will give 50000 dollars to the person that proves god doesn't exist to my satisfaction.

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/10/2013 10:57:48 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Ah so we have to find something immune to kvetching and mincing and rather disingenuous arguments why it is not a religious myth then.

Well now hey, I defined my usage, so yes you have to meet those terms to answer the question as asked.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

No crusade or jihad was ever launched in the names of the tortoise and the hare.

Name a religious myth that encourages and glorifies mayhem and violence (by man against man).

I won't argue with your right to view religious myth differently from me. But regardless of whether or not you do, the fact remains that nothing I've seen so far (excluding apocalyptic literature, which strikes me as a separate category) encourages or glorifies mayhem and violence by man against man.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 10/10/2013 11:02:00 AM >

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/10/2013 11:04:14 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Because your twisting and writhing is akin to the I will give 50000 dollars to the person that proves god doesn't exist to my satisfaction.

Oh, is this all about winning for you? Okay, you win. Don't spend it all in one place.

K.

(in reply to mnottertail)

RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/10/2013 11:05:09 AM

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Oh, lots in Deuteronomy, 9:5 and 20:16-18 then, the old bugger commands the slaughter of men by men.

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/10/2013 11:15:48 AM

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1 Now the LORD said to Joshua, “Do not fear or be dismayed. Take all the people of war with you and arise, go up to Ai; see, I have given into your hand the king of Ai, his people, his city, and his land. 2 And you shall do to Ai and its king just as you did to Jericho and its king; you shall take only its spoil and its cattle as plunder for yourselves. Set an ambush for the city behind it.”

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/10/2013 11:27:22 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

From 2 Kings chapter 2

quote:

2:23 And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
2:24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

Well, that's closer. But it's still just a cautionary tale about disrespect for your elders, and the unanticipated consequences that can follow upon mocking and taunting someone. I'd rate it as more of a fairy tale than a religious myth. But more directly to the point, it doesn't encourage or glorify mayhem and violence by man against man.

2 Kings is not a parable or anything of the sort. It is a narrative. The author is saying that the events described actually took place.

(in reply to Kirata)

RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/10/2013 11:39:24 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Ah so we have to find something immune to kvetching and mincing and rather disingenuous arguments why it is not a religious myth then.

Well now hey, I defined my usage, so yes you have to meet those terms to answer the question as asked.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

No crusade or jihad was ever launched in the names of the tortoise and the hare.

Name a religious myth that encourages and glorifies mayhem and violence (by man against man).

I won't argue with your right to view religious myth differently from me. But regardless of whether or not you do, the fact remains that nothing I've seen so far (excluding apocalyptic literature, which strikes me as a separate category) encourages or glorifies mayhem and violence by man against man.

K.

I didn't say the sacred writings of the tortoise and the hare encouraged violence. You all are conflating 'myth' with scripture. The myth of exclusivity is a meme that exists outside of the scriptures of the three Abrahamic religions. Each believes their truth is the only truth and all others are heretics. Is there any doubt that these three have waged violence against one another in the name of their truth? I think not. That's why I believe you are splitting hares.

btw: "Onward Christian soldiers, marching as to war, with the Cross of Jesus marching on before." Sez it all.

(in reply to Kirata)

RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/10/2013 10:03:48 PM

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In the human sciences, a myth is a narrative whose truth value derives not from any internal or intrinsic truth it may contain, but from the extent to which it is believed to be true in any given culture. If enough people believe the narrative to be true, then that widespread acceptance gives the myth a truth value of its own.

Viewed from this perspective, the distinction between scripture and myth drawn above becomes redundant. It might be noted that believers tend to take a religions' texts as a package - sometimes to the extent of literalism - so the distinction is also invalidated by a lot of religious practice.

All of which makes the questions I posed initially more interesting: Can religions stand alone without the historicity of their founders? Can we imagine say Christianity with out the life and teachings of Jesus, or Islam without the words of the Prophet? If these figureheads are shown to be mythical figures, what residual truth value remains in the texts their words and deeds are said to have inspired? Can these texts be properly advanced as the "word of God"? Does any intrinsic truth value remain?

Personally I tend to the view that religious texts make a lot more sense if they are interpreted symbolically or viewed as allegory. However I'm pretty sure that many believers would regard such views as heresy.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 10/10/2013 10:12:36 PM >

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/10/2013 11:34:33 PM

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While there is some truth in what you say, I hold a different worldview - which is not unique unto myself - pertaining to mythological lore & legend. I believe ALL myths & legends have at their root a basis in fact, in truth, possessing both intrinsic and extrinsic historical and sociological value. Mythology is as multi-faceted as there are layers of truth to the legendary Homeric City of Troy (currently narrowed down to being located at either Level VII or VI of 9 consecutive occupied levels). Troy was once regarded as a myth, a fictitious city that never existed. It was not "until an Archaeologist, Heinrich Schliemann in 1870 followed the geographical clues in the 'Iliad' and began excavating North West Turkey"* (Anatolia) that it became factually existent.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

If enough people believe the narrative to be true, then that widespread acceptance gives the myth a truth value of its own.

There are those who don't believe there ever was a real live historical personage who embodied the legendary King Arthur. Perhaps our great-great-grandchildren will refer to The Legend of Jesse James as The Myth of Jesse James. (Except for the offspring of Missourians, who will know better than to doubt his veracity, of course) Only time will tell.

P.S. Try describing what an 8-track player is to a young person. Case closed.

* http://www.ancientgreece.com/s/Troy

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Whom Mortals Shall Call the Moon ~ Lord Byron
She Moves in Mysterious Ways . . . On Your Knees, Boy. ~ U2

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/10/2013 11:53:16 PM

NoBimbosAllowed

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

For me, the claim that "[t]he truths conveyed by religious myths do not depend on the historicity of the characters' is far more interesting and relevant. Does this claim stand up to scrutiny?

Mohammed is not a character in a religious myth. But setting that aside, the myth of a dying and resurrected god, for example, a god who descends into the underworld and rises again, has appeared in various forms in different places and times.

The power of the myth is independent of the name of the divine hero. On a lesser scale, the myth of Echo and Narcissus would be no less powerful if the names were changed. We relate to these myths because they are about us.

This is true of many fairy tales as well. The tortoise and the hare would work just as well as a tale of the sloth and the monkey. These are stories about us, about our nature, and in religious myths about an aspect of our nature that we do not see.

K.

But no one ever built a church for the tortoise and the hare. No crusade or jihad was ever launched in the names of the tortoise and the hare. Tweakabelle's question seems to have merit. At least in the Abrahamic traditions.

No, but a war/crusade/jihad between White Roses and Red Roses happened.

which was also somewhat racial in origin since Henry Tudor's was considered by many it him to have stolen the throne, and to have been more Welsh than 'English' at that time - and the Welsh were considered PHYSICALLY different to the English by the English at that point in history, and the wars between Cymry (aka Wales) as an invaded country (which was sovereign beforehand, with expressions of faith very different to the invading English) and an annexed country. And culture. Which has had a long time getting back on it's feet, culturally and economically.

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/11/2013 2:09:42 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NoBimbosAllowed
No, but a war/crusade/jihad between White Roses and Red Roses happened.

which was also somewhat racial in origin since Henry Tudor's was considered by many it him to have stolen the throne, and to have been more Welsh than 'English' at that time - and the Welsh were considered PHYSICALLY different to the English by the English at that point in history, and the wars between Cymry (aka Wales) as an invaded country (which was sovereign beforehand, with expressions of faith very different to the invading English) and an annexed country. And culture. Which has had a long time getting back on it's feet, culturally and economically.

The Welsh are different. The Welsh are a Celtic people while the English nobility is of Norman and Anglo/Saxon descent. Intermarriage obviously has occurred so things aren't quite so cut and dried but back then the differences were very significant.

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/11/2013 9:32:35 AM

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quote:

Viewed from this perspective, the distinction between scripture and myth drawn above becomes redundant. It might be noted that believers tend to take a religions' texts as a package - sometimes to the extent of literalism - so the distinction is also invalidated by a lot of religious practice.

Upon reflection, I erred in seperating the myth of exclusivity (which I see as the core of continuing conflicts) from the scriptures of the Abrahamic religions. My bad.

quote:

All of which makes the questions I posed initially more interesting: Can religions stand alone without the historicity of their founders? Can we imagine say Christianity with out the life and teachings of Jesus, or Islam without the words of the Prophet? If these figureheads are shown to be mythical figures, what residual truth value remains in the texts their words and deeds are said to have inspired? Can these texts be properly advanced as the "word of God"? Does any intrinsic truth value remain?

There are some humanistic truth values that would remain, imo. However, it seems a moot point since the faithful will never accept that their Prophets were fictions.

But what about the Muslim traditions, which like the Greek and Roman pagans, if I am correct, do not have divinities who were historical figures but persist as systems of belief? Were the avatars of Krishnu historical personages? I think not. Yet the many traditions and beliefs are still practiced.

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/11/2013 9:59:27 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss
It suggests that there is proof that Jesus Christ was a fictional character and was deliberately created by the ancient Roman aristocracy.

I suppose the next thing ya are gonna tell me is that Santa Claus isn't real either!..

NEVER!

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RE: The Covert Messiah - 10/12/2013 1:12:07 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Viewed from this perspective, the distinction between scripture and myth drawn above becomes redundant. It might be noted that believers tend to take a religions' texts as a package - sometimes to the extent of literalism - so the distinction is also invalidated by a lot of religious practice.

Upon reflection, I erred in seperating the myth of exclusivity (which I see as the core of continuing conflicts) from the scriptures of the Abrahamic religions. My bad.

quote:

All of which makes the questions I posed initially more interesting: Can religions stand alone without the historicity of their founders? Can we imagine say Christianity with out the life and teachings of Jesus, or Islam without the words of the Prophet? If these figureheads are shown to be mythical figures, what residual truth value remains in the texts their words and deeds are said to have inspired? Can these texts be properly advanced as the "word of God"? Does any intrinsic truth value remain?

There are some humanistic truth values that would remain, imo. However, it seems a moot point since the faithful will never accept that the
But what about the Muslim traditions, which like the Greek and Roman pagans, if I am correct, do not have divinities who were historical figures but persist as systems of belief? Were the avatars of Krishnu historical personages? I think not. Yet the many traditions and beliefs are still practiced.

It would be nice to to hear the perspectives of believers on these issues. From where I sit, as a non-believer, I doubt it will make a great deal of difference to many believers. In the final analysis, it is the reactions of believers, not those of non-believers that will count. It's their belief system not mine!

Whether a religion such as Christianity could survive, and retain its intellectual coherence after losing say, the Resurrection myth is another question entirely. Nor is it clear to me how many of the humanist values advanced in the New Testament would survive either. What theological grounds would exist to justify replacing "An eye for an eye" with "love thy neighbour"?

One positive feature that might emerge is that literal or fundamentalist interpretations would be fatally undermined. I imagine that, in the absence of the historical Jesus, the bedrock of certainty that enables fundamentalist readings would have vanished.* And that could only be a good thing.

* Whether that would have any effect on the beliefs and antics of mis another matter..... It's not like there is a strong intellectually-coherent case for fundamentalist interpretations of texts (of any religion) at the moment.

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