RE: Iran (Full Version)

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RottenJohnny -> RE: Iran (11/11/2013 2:39:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
Like say, a global warming treaty? [8|]

[:D]




Politesub53 -> RE: Iran (11/11/2013 3:53:33 PM)

Anyone notice that the Iranian Republican Guard called for protest marches against the talks.......... Anyone ? Is it just me ?

Iran has two camps, one hardline, on not, lets just continue to lump them all together just to make life simple. [8|]




deathtothepixies -> RE: Iran (11/11/2013 4:56:07 PM)

double post, box disaster




deathtothepixies -> RE: Iran (11/11/2013 5:00:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: deathtothepixies


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

The sanctions are hurting the wealthy and the government.


What?

Of course sanctions are well known to only effect the wealthy....

Humanitarian impact[edit]

See also: Healthcare in Iran and Agriculture in Iran

Pharmaceuticals and medical equipments do not fall under international sanctions but the country is facing shortages of drugs for the treatment of 30 illnesses including cancer, heart and breathing problems, thalassemia and multiple sclerosis (MS) because Iran is not allowed to use the international payment systems.[84][85] A teenage boy died from hemophilia due to a shortage of medicine caused by the sanctions on Iran.[86] Delivery of some agricultural products to Iran have also been affected for the same set of reasons.[87]

In 2013, The Guardian reported that some 85,000 cancer patients require chemotherapy and radiotherapy which are now scarce. Iranians with serious illnesses have been put at imminent risk by the unintended consequences of international sanctions, which have led to dire shortages of life-saving medicines such as chemotherapy drugs for cancer and bloodclotting agents for haemophiliacs. Western governments have built waivers into the sanctions regime to ensure that essential medicines get through, but those waivers are not functioning, as they conflict with blanket restrictions on banking, as well as bans on "dual-use" chemicals which might have a military application. In addition, there are 40,000 haemophiliacs who can't get anti-clotting medicines. Operations on haemophiliacs have been virtually suspended because of the risks created by the shortages. An estimated 23,000 Iranians with HIV/AIDS have had their access to the drugs they need to keep them alive severely restricted. The society representing the 8,000 Iranians suffering from thalassaemia, an inherited blood disorder, has said its members are beginning to die because of a lack of an essential drug, deferoxamine, used to control the iron content in the blood. To make matters worse, Iran can no longer buy medical equipment such as autoclaves (sterilising machines), essential for the production of many drugs because some of the biggest western pharmaceutical companies refuse to have anything to do with Iran.[88]

In recent reports, the development of a medicinal black market has come to the forefront of international news, a desperate population resorting to any means to obtain, at times life saving, medications.[89] Though vital medicines are not affected by sanctions directly, the amount of hard currency being made available to the Minister of Health is what's causing a huge backlash on the amount of vital medicines being made available to the public. Iran's first female Minister Marziyeh Vahid Dastjerdi (since the Iranian Revolution) was dismissed in December for speaking out against the lack of support from the government in times of economic hardship.[90] Furthermore, Iranian patients are at risk of amplified side effects and reduced effectiveness because Iran is forced to import more medicines, and chemical building blocks for other medicines, from India and China, thereby replacing the higher quality products from Western manufacturers. Imports from American and European drug makers were down by an estimated 30 percent in 2012 and falling. Given the nature of patents in the world of pharmaceuticals, substitutions for advanced medicines is often unattainable, particularly when it comes to diseases such as cancer and multiple sclerosis.[91]



Sanctions always affect the poor, the rich and well connected look after themselves, always have , always will.

Your (clipped) comment is naïve and disingenuous, and you should know better





vincentML -> RE: Iran (11/11/2013 6:43:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Additionally, one has to wonder how Americans would react if a group of nations demanded we cease building some part of our infrastructure and imposed financial and trade sanctions on us that caused us spiraling inflation. We would be freakin outraged and defiant I think!



Like say, a global warming treaty? [8|]

Maybe Tehran will get that big earthquake they say is coming, and give them something else to focus on for a while, but with or without talking, I think they are going to have their bomb soon enough.



Yes, like the global warming treaty. [:)] I'll bet that by percentage there are more people here in favor of placing lids on smokestacks than Iranians who want to halt their nuclear program.

Will they get a bomb eventually? Yeah, maybe. What the hell, Pakistan, China, India, Russia, and Israel are nuke nations; Iran is practically encircled (or semi-encircled) So, maybe understandable.

What else is at work? Well, national pride for one thing. Geology as well. Iran is central to several oil rich fields and oil transport paths.

Also, apocalyptic Shia theocratic ideology confronted by opposing, belligerent theocratic ideologies: Sunni, Israeli, and apocalyptic rapture sucking American Christianity. A clash of four fundamentalist ideologies. Good luck with that.

Stir well and ignite!

[sm=anger.gif]

I am happy to note that Dick Cheney's twin sons Lindsey Graham and John (bomb, bomb Iran) McCain are not in the White House.




cloudboy -> RE: Iran (11/11/2013 8:07:34 PM)

quote:

We might be able to delay Iranian nuclear development, but I don't think we can stop it in the long run.



That's what I think. I'm more curious how long IRAN can remain a theocracy in the modern world. The USSR lasted about 70 years. Iran is at year 34.

quote:

At this point, we don't trust them, and they don't trust us. Negotiations might seem like an exercise in futility, but we don't have many practical options right now. We're not in as strong a position as we once were in the world, so we may need to play it closer to the vest for a while.


One interesting fact that's come to light is how IRAN was set to help the US go to war against the Taliban in Afghanistan. Iranian sources were providing intelligence, maps, and other information when suddenly, out of the blue, GWB gave his "Axis of evil" speech and blew up the whole relationship.




RottenJohnny -> RE: Iran (11/11/2013 8:56:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
...GWB gave his "Axis of evil" speech and blew up the whole relationship.

Yeah...in my view, that was really a big mistake. Especially since Clinton had tried pretty hard to smooth things over with them.




tweakabelle -> RE: Iran (11/11/2013 10:16:43 PM)

Western and particularly American interventions in Iran don't have a successful track record do they?

Why should any one believe it's going to be any different this time around?




Zonie63 -> RE: Iran (11/12/2013 5:00:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

At this point, we don't trust them, and they don't trust us. Negotiations might seem like an exercise in futility, but we don't have many practical options right now. We're not in as strong a position as we once were in the world, so we may need to play it closer to the vest for a while.

Why should they trust us? We overthrew their democratic government and imposed a Shah and his terror police.


True, but I think there's little danger of that happening again.

quote:


Additionally, one has to wonder how Americans would react if a group of nations demanded we cease building some part of our infrastructure and imposed financial and trade sanctions on us that caused us spiraling inflation. We would be freakin outraged and defiant I think!


Perhaps, although that's hard to say. I don't recall Americans being all that outraged over the oil embargo of the 1970s. I think we were more outraged when the Iranians seized our embassy in 1979; that was the far bigger insult.




JeffBC -> RE: Iran (11/12/2013 5:22:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Western and particularly American interventions in Iran don't have a successful track record do they? Why should any one believe it's going to be any different this time around?

This is my thought. Why are we even discussing with them? So they are building an atomic weapon. Booyah. I wonder if America is ever going to realize that it's imperial days are dwindling fast. We have gutted our own economy so we don't have the money to play at the global game of thrones level any longer.




DomKen -> RE: Iran (11/12/2013 5:29:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
One interesting fact that's come to light is how IRAN was set to help the US go to war against the Taliban in Afghanistan. Iranian sources were providing intelligence, maps, and other information when suddenly, out of the blue, GWB gave his "Axis of evil" speech and blew up the whole relationship.

This was no secret. The Taliban and Iran had fought some border skirmishes and Iran's Shi'a majority hates wahhabism which is the sect OBL and his followers were attempting to spread throughout the muslim world.




DesideriScuri -> RE: Iran (11/12/2013 6:39:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Western and particularly American interventions in Iran don't have a successful track record do they?
Why should any one believe it's going to be any different this time around?


Because we have a Nobel Peace Prize winner allowing them to happen this time. [8D]




mnottertail -> RE: Iran (11/12/2013 6:42:04 AM)

Had that before.




Moonhead -> RE: Iran (11/12/2013 6:51:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

I think they are playing the West, and we are all going to wake up one morning in the next year to the news that they have successfully tested a bomb.


I think we are all going to wake up one morning in the next year to the news that they have successfully tested a bomb in Israel.

There's only one nation in history that has ever carried out a nuclear attack on a foreign state, and that wasn't Iran.




vincentML -> RE: Iran (11/12/2013 12:33:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Western and particularly American interventions in Iran don't have a successful track record do they?

Why should any one believe it's going to be any different this time around?

Here is an article which presents the counterintuitive proposition that the NPT talks may be only preliminary to negotiations that lead to a strategic alignment between Iran and the United States. "WOT?!!!" you exclaim. Not possible. Well, why not?

It is important to recognize that despite all of the other actors on the stage, this negotiation is between the United States and Iran. It is also important to understand that while this phase of the discussion is entirely focused on Iran's nuclear development and sanctions, an eventual settlement would address U.S. and Iranian relations and how those relations affect the region. If the nuclear issue were resolved and the sanctions removed, then matters such as controlling Sunni extremists, investment in Iran and maintaining the regional balance of power would all be on the table. In solving these two outstanding problems, the prospect of a new U.S.-Iranian relationship would have to be taken seriously.

It is hard to imagine this evolution, considering what the United States and Iran have said about each other for the past 34 years. But relations among nations are not about sentiment; they are about interest. If Roosevelt could ally with Stalin, and Nixon with Mao, then it is clear that all things are possible in U.S. foreign policy. For their part, the Persians have endured for millennia, espousing many ideologies but doing what was necessary to survive and prosper. All of this may well fall apart, but there is a compelling logic to believe that it will not, and it will not be as modest a negotiation as it appears now.

What is possible:

The first U.S.-Iranian discussions would obviously be on the immediate issue -- the nuclear program and sanctions. There are many technical issues involved there, the most important of which is that both sides must show that they don't need a settlement. No one negotiating anything will simply accept the first offer, not when they expect the negotiations to move on to more serious issues. Walking away from the table for 10 days gives both sides some credibility.

The real negotiations will come after the nuclear and sanctions issues are addressed. They will pertain to U.S.-Iranian relations more broadly. Each side will use the other to its advantage. The Iranians will use the United States to repair its economy, and the Americans will use the Iranians to create a balance of power with Sunni states. This will create indirect benefits for both sides. Iran's financial woes will be an opportunity for American companies to invest. The Americans' need for a balance of power will give Iran weight against its own enemies, even after the collapse of its strategy.


The article goes into detail about the recent developments that may motivate both sides to seek a new relationship. Quite insightful thinking and certainly outside the box of popular opinion. We shall have to await developments. But let's not be short sighted to preclude the possibility of more sweeping agenda at work.

SOURCE: STRATFOR




DomKen -> RE: Iran (11/12/2013 12:43:24 PM)

I've said it before but it bears repeating, the United States, and the West more generally, have a natural ally in Iran. The Persians are a far more cosmopolitan and open culture than the Arab culture. We screwed up the relationship by backing the brutality of the Shah but we are now dealing with an Iran where most of the population has no memory of that and who are increasingly restive under the rule of the mullahs. Careful engagement can speed the day that Iran throws off the theocrats and emerges as our best friend in the region.




RottenJohnny -> RE: Iran (11/12/2013 12:45:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

I think they are playing the West, and we are all going to wake up one morning in the next year to the news that they have successfully tested a bomb.


I think we are all going to wake up one morning in the next year to the news that they have successfully tested a bomb in Israel.

There's only one nation in history that has ever carried out a nuclear attack on a foreign state, and that wasn't Iran.

Do you have a point or are you just using the opportunity to take a cheap shot at the U.S.?




Moonhead -> RE: Iran (11/12/2013 1:24:18 PM)

Pointing out that Iran have less of a past form for nuclear attacks than the country most of those bleating that Iran shouldn't be allowed to run a nuclear programme come from isn't relevant?




mnottertail -> RE: Iran (11/12/2013 2:00:34 PM)

quote:


There's only one nation in history that has ever carried out a nuclear attack on a foreign state, and that wasn't Iran.


And there is one and only one nation today who could carry out a nuclear attack on a foreign state, and not have every single country on the globe dogpiled in war on them.  (Depending on the country attacked, there could be war, but we would still have allies).




RottenJohnny -> RE: Iran (11/12/2013 2:05:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Pointing out that Iran have less of a past form for nuclear attacks than the country most of those bleating that Iran shouldn't be allowed to run a nuclear programme come from isn't relevant?

From what I can tell, nobody but Israel seems to be opposed to Iran having a peaceful nuclear program. And most of the entire planet is against them making a bomb. So don't even try dumping this all on the U.S.




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