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RE: Weaponry, protecting what's yours - 7/16/2006 10:38:25 PM

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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

Fast reply
I'm just wondering how this thread wich was about weaponry, protecting what's yours, has come down to a flame war about pro and anti guns, who has the best defence/protection and who is right or wrong. Give me a bloody break please! If you want to have a yelling match and trade insults take it to a convention center and charge admission....

Im not anti0gun period, my brother inlaw is a peace officer, and I admire him greatly and his skill with fire arms. He has several guns which I have watched him practice with because he has to be tested annually to make sure he is effective with his service revolver. He went to the academy, he trained, and he he has much respect for guns and has used them all his life. I have never heard him be as militant about guns as people on this thread. My sister has a dog to protect her, he feels more secure that the dog would be there than the guns are there.

IB, I haven't insulted anyone for using a gun to protect their home or themselves, and if push came to shove and I had to use one and it was there to use... I would to protect my family. I would definitely step in front of a train for my kid, and I wouldn't allow harm to him.

Im not throwing insults or addressing those who do anymore... period, end of story. I never once have advocated repealing the second amendment. I haven't once said that people should not own a gun or are wrong for using one to protect their home. Period..

I am not stooping to anyone else's level of vitriol, with name calling and spewing... that sort of behavior is beneath me

Peace IB... may your guns never be used to protect you, but if they are necessary and you need them... I hope you hit your target dead center!

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to IronBear)

RE: Weaponry, protecting what's yours - 7/16/2006 11:20:30 PM

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mistoferin said:

quote:

I have had the unpleasant experience several times in my life of being on the business end of a gun.

I can accept your explanation to Pulpsmack re: "getting him with the second barrel" as you might have meant "second shot". What I have trouble with is the statement above. If it is true then either your friends or you are seriously troubled. NO ONE should be able to say what you said, above.

Do you live your life either enforcing the peace, or breaking it? Even peace officers and criminals know that having a deadly weapon levelled at one's body is traumatic. People who face down a gun, even if the gun is never fired, often suffer after the incident with significant stress and Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. This is true in police officers and other trained gun handlers.

To blythely say "I have ...several times in my life ... [been] on the business end of a gun" is to say "I am a dangerous, reckless person" or "the people I choose to spend my life with are dangerous and reckless people". It is almost inconceivable to claim this happens several times in one life. If it has happened, you almost certainly need professional help. Did you seek it?

E.

_____________________________

"When you wake up, Pooh," said Piglet, "what's the first thing you say?"
"What's for breakfast? What do you say, Piglet?"
"I say, I wonder what's going to happen exciting today?"
Pooh nodded thoughtfully.
"It's the same thing," he said.

(in reply to mistoferin)

RE: Weaponry, protecting what's yours - 7/17/2006 12:03:41 AM

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From: Louisiana
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

Im not anti0gun period

I mentioned how CA citizens didn't have the choice to carry guns thanks to those who voted for representatives who put in place anti 2nd (technically anti-14th) legislation. your response:

quote:

As far as voters.. Im one of them that doesn't want people running around armed

quote:

IB, I haven't insulted anyone for using a gun to protect their home or themselves

In response to my mention of having to lawfully defend myself from a would be robber with my firearm you respond:

quote:

the fact that you were attacked and had to use a gun doesn't surprise me.. it is the way the Universe works in my spiritual world.. what you plan for happens.

In response to a hypothetical about having to use a firearm to protect life and limb of oneself and others you immediately throw out uncalled for terms of vigilantism and assume one who would lawfully use such force would do it in cavalier fashion reflecting your contemptuous attitude for those who believe in defending themselves from armed attackers...

quote:

I do not believe in vigilantism, or in people that think it is ok for them to enforce justice in civil society by pulling out their concealed weapon and firing randomly at people

Again, more words automatically assuming and accusing one who would lawfully defend her/himself and others, showing more contempt and disrespect for those who train with and would use a firearm defensively in such a situation.

quote:

You murdered someone to prove how tough you are with a gun. You could have called the cops, but no,.. you pulled out your 6 shooter and murdered an innocent person... hypothetically.

Your point of view regarding one who would use a firearm for self-defense?

quote:

Everytime you fire at people you take the risk of shooting an innocent.. unacceptable and it has NOTHING to do with your example [thus illustrating she intends it generally, not within the bounds of the hypothetical]

Further fuel for the fire...

quote:

Police are trained and paid to keep the peace, it is their job, not yours

While I agree with the last statement, it was leveled as another disparaging remark that reflects her attitude and perception of those who carry and lawfully excercise their 2nd amendment and self-defense rights.

quote:

I never once have advocated repealing the second amendment. I haven't once said that people should not own a gun or are wrong for using one to protect their home. Period.

So, how does voting for those who abridge the second amendment and voicing your approval thereof fit in with that? As to the latter, we finally agree on something. You never said anything against those who protect themselves within their home, but those who set foot outside are vigilantes, and murderers who shoot people to show how tough they are instead of calling the police, and get what they deserve since they planned for it. That about sums it up.

You mentioned the idea of a DA searching one's internet statements to indict him for hus actions. Funny how your own internet statments have come back to haunt you for your lies.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

RE: Weaponry, protecting what's yours - 7/17/2006 6:35:21 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Emperor1956
mistoferin said:
quote:

I have had the unpleasant experience several times in my life of being on the business end of a gun.

I can accept your explanation to Pulpsmack re: "getting him with the second barrel" as you might have meant "second shot". What I have trouble with is the statement above. If it is true then either your friends or you are seriously troubled. NO ONE should be able to say what you said, above.

Do you live your life either enforcing the peace, or breaking it? Even peace officers and criminals know that having a deadly weapon levelled at one's body is traumatic. People who face down a gun, even if the gun is never fired, often suffer after the incident with significant stress and Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. This is true in police officers and other trained gun handlers.

To blythely say "I have ...several times in my life ... [been] on the business end of a gun" is to say "I am a dangerous, reckless person" or "the people I choose to spend my life with are dangerous and reckless people". It is almost inconceivable to claim this happens several times in one life. If it has happened, you almost certainly need professional help. Did you seek it?

First off, no I didn't mean second shot...as I already explained, I was a young scared girl and the phrase was something that simply came to me at that particular moment.

Secondly, you must have also missed where I stated that I worked for many years in the inner city with drug addicts. Actually you must have missed alot of my other posts too. I haven't lived my life looking at the world from ivory towers....I've been right down there digging in the dirt of it.

I posted because I have had experiences that related to this thread....specifically to being able to be effective under an adrenalin load. If you, or anyone else for that matter, chooses not to find my recounting of those experiences as believable...that is your personal choice and you are well within your rights to do so. It doesn't change it

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to Emperor1956)

RE: Weaponry, protecting what's yours - 7/17/2006 7:10:45 AM

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Some people here remind me of an old girlfriend who when watching a documentary complained "why didn't she just go see a doctor". I had to explain that not everyone had their mother arange for them to get a government job with full and complete cradle to grave benefits. Some people live a rather harsh existence or work with those who do. Not everyone has the luxury to just move away from it all.

(in reply to mistoferin)

RE: Weaponry, protecting what's yours - 4/16/2007 2:00:37 PM

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So I do a TV shoot the other day for a late night program. Teaching 2 70+ year olds in 2.5 hours how to fight under adrenalin.

They tell me they are going to have a stuntman attack them and try to take her purse, I tell them I feel really worried about this. I point out that under adrenalin they have been taught how to fight, and control is not something we teach. Hit as hard as you can; dont hold back, that sort of thing. They are insistent. They tell me the stuntman is an expert on taking shots and is not worried about it at all. I tell them to warn the stuntman to watch out for a hit to the face.

The two go outside. It is all on film with hidden cameras. They stuntman runs up and grabs her purse.

73 year old woman hits him him in the face. 72 year old man knees the stuntman in the testicles.

Stuntman goes down.

Cameramen run in to protect the stuntman.

Sinergy

p.s. Do they think I wear my protective armor for fun?

_____________________________

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(in reply to Alumbrado)

RE: Weaponry, protecting what's yours - 4/16/2007 3:01:23 PM

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Always a firm believer in the concept of the mind being the best weapon. I view weaponry as a tool, an extention of the body ,mind, and spirit. I prefer a rule of non -discloser of limits and abilities. Why give one that may intend us harm the knowledge? Self awareness, and awareness of our environment and surroundings. "An ounce of precaution is worth a pound of cure". Should the need for cure be unavoidable, at least those that would intend harm may not know what's in store.

(in reply to Sinergy)

RE: Weaponry, protecting what's yours - 4/16/2007 4:59:44 PM

StellaByStarlite

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Um, I have a muzzle loader. Does that count?

(in reply to szobras)

RE: Weaponry, protecting what's yours - 4/16/2007 5:10:33 PM

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I agree we must be able to protect our selfs and ours.Just down the road last week a couple woke to find an armed intruder in the house,so the older man shot and kill him right there.I have plenty of weapons around the house,a loaded shot gun with double 00 sits in the corner and all here know how to use it.WE have 2 trained protection dogs they are better then any gun could ever be..Like the ol" saying I"LL give up my gun when they pry them from my cold dead hands...bounty

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RE: Weaponry, protecting what's yours - 4/16/2007 6:15:32 PM

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From: Missoula Montana
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Yeah, have weapons. Lots of them. Rifles, pistols, shotguns, all have their place. A select few are always near to hand, and loaded, including a 12-gauge riot gun. (Still looking for a good 1897 Winchester with the bayonet lug, BTW)    Some are stored in the safe. (No UM's running around my house...)

I taught armed self defense for years, to both civilians and security personnel. Being armed has nothing to do with protecting my submissive or keeping burglars and thieves away. It has everything to do with being prepared for whatever life may throw my way.

I also have food and water in the basement, a backup generator with fuel in case of power loss during a blizzard, and a winch on the F-150 4x4.

I live in town now. I didn't always. Cops are 5 or 10 minutes away instead of half an hour. Ever notice, that no matter how close they are, there is never one around when you need one?   They are not responsible for my protection, or your protection, but for the protection of society as a whole. In fact they have no legal obligation to even show up if you call them. I, and only I, am responsible for my protection, just as you are responsible for yours.

This area still has one of the lowest crime rates in the country, but gangs and meth have infiltrated even this far corner of the land. There are home invasions, where the occupants are tortured. There are carjackings, drivebys, there are random robberies and beatings of pedestrians on downtown streets within a block of the police station. So I lock my (steel reinforced) doors now, and there is always a gun within my reach when I travel outside it. Fortunately this is still allowed by the laws here.

I have used a gun twice for self-defense. On neither occasion was it necessary to fire it. Just the presence of it and my obvious willingness to use it caused the situation to be resolved without violence.

I feel sad that so many American citizens do not have this basic right any more. I intend to exercise the right that I have. Not because I am a dominant, but because I accept the responsibility for my own protection. I am making a choice, I am choosing not to be a victim.

"Having a gun doesn't make you armed, any more than having a guitar makes you a musician."
      ~Jeff Cooper

P.S. I once assisted with a reactive target training course for police firearms instructors, at the annual conference of IALEFI when it was held in my city. The participants were the elite; the SWAT officers, the agency training officers. I'd call most of them only fair shots. There were a rare few that were exceptional, but all of those were highly dedicated shooters who used much of their spare time to train, generally at their own expense. The average street cop does the least amount of training that his department will allow, and is lucky to not shoot himself or another officer when he draws and fires his weapon. JMHO.

_____________________________

GrizzlyBear

"Come to the edge," he said.
They said, "We are afraid."
"Come to the edge," he said.
They came. He pushed them. And they flew.
~Guillaume Apollinaire

(in reply to BOUNTYHUNTER)

RE: Weaponry, protecting what's yours - 4/16/2007 6:59:43 PM

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While I won't list what I have, I feel that's noones business but my own...I will tell you this. I do have an ample supply of weaponry of different types in my home. Yes, I know how to use all..have studied for years learning how to use what I have. Do I feel I need weapons to protect what I have..no. I am also well trained in martial arts and military combat. My hands and feet are as well, classified as legal weapons.

The weapons are merely a collection for me, as well as used for hunting and various other things. Do I hide what I have? No. Anyone who enters my home sees. All my kids know how to use and my grandaughter is learning. Do I unload any firearm? No. Then i've never had a problem with anyone touching either.

If anyone who enters my home, asks questions about a certain weapon...I am more than happy to show and tell and teach to learn should they desire.

(in reply to DesertRat)

RE: Weaponry, protecting what's yours - 4/21/2007 8:39:12 PM

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJIgEtxjbsI

Highly rated. Go figure.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to HutchGarahl)

RE: Weaponry, protecting what's yours - 4/21/2007 8:50:05 PM

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I have been in and out with these threads with Sinergy before. I exist in space and will make use of space and be a marshmallow if necessary. I own guns, they are locked in a cabinet and would not be my first weapon of choice for home defense. It really aint important until they are inside it (a space thing) but my first weapons of choice at the range of influence would be my voice, and then a cheap set of swords.

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(in reply to Sinergy)

RE: Weaponry, protecting what's yours - 4/22/2007 12:24:01 AM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Slaves can be very useful as bodyguards and protectors also.

Interesting point. I thought I was the only one to have considered that.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

RE: Weaponry, protecting what's yours - 4/22/2007 12:41:12 AM

Aswad

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In reply to the OP, before having read the rest of the thread...

For me, taking responsibility for myself and my actions is important. The logical extension of this is that I'm responsible for my own safety, and to the extent that I'm responsible for anyone else, I'm responsible for their safety.

Living in Norway, I can't legally carry a firearm or other commonly recognizable weapon of any sort without being part of the special forces (who are required to carry theirs at all times, including off-duty time) or one of the handful of people (typically bodyguards for important people) who have a special permit. Fortunately, firearms are rarely involved in assaults here.

Either way, a knife does more damage at point blank, if you know how to use it, or if the opponent knows how to defend against a gun, and the damage can be harder to treat. The advantage of a gun is lower training requirements and improved range.

That said, I do carry a concealable folding knife of legal length (about 2 inches, which is enough to get the carotid and jugular, among other things) as well as a short metal flashlight (which makes an excellent striking weapon, e.g. blows to the temple).

And I also train in a Martial Art that emphasizes awareness of one's surroundings, body dynamics, muscle memory, dynamic anatomy, pain tolerance, practical/realistic training, and so forth.

So far, though, the most serious thing I've had to use it for was when some guy tried to attack me with no warning while I was distracted; I wasn't really aware of what was happening before I realized I had stepped off his line of attack and then stopped short of a potentially lethal attack because of the sudden shift in his body language (presumably surprise, fear or something similar; either way, he no longer felt like a potential threat, and he wasted no time in running off).

I try to stay out of trouble, which kind of limits the exposure, and people tend to back off when they get the vibe that another step will mean one or more of us will likely not make it to the hospital and that I'm not about to start giving any thought to whether I'm going to be the one that does before it's over.

People seem to have this misconception that the police have a direct role to play in one's personal safety, which just isn't the case. Few people are willing to accept that argument, though.

I'd recommend reading the "On Sheep, Wolves and Sheepdogs" text by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman with regards to some of this. I may not agree with everything he says, but the fundamentals ring true to me, and I realize a lot of it is written in a way that is meant to be appealing to a general audience in the US.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to BitaTruble)

RE: Weaponry, protecting what's yours - 4/22/2007 7:08:43 AM

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Though I own firearms, and am an expert in their use (USMC, including detachment to FBI Quantico as an instructor) and have both combat and social experience in their use, my first choice is a big stick. much Easier to defend in court, and short of a attacker with a firearm, probably the most effective close quarters weapon. Consider that Musashi fought most of his duels (to the death) with a stick against a katana.

USMC Rules For Gunfighting

1. Bring a gun. Preferably, bring at least two guns. Bring all of your friends who have guns.
2. Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is cheap. Life is expensive.
3. Only hits count. The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss.
4. If your shooting stance is good, you're probably not moving fast enough nor using cover correctly.
5. Move away from your attacker. Distance is your friend. (Lateral and diagonal movements are preferred.)
6. If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a long gun and a friend with a long gun.
7. In ten years nobody will remember the details of caliber, stance, or tactics. They will only remember who lived.
8. If you are not shooting, you should be communicating, reloading, and running.
9. Accuracy is relative: most combat shooting standards will be more dependent on "pucker factor" than the inherent accuracy of the gun.
10. Use a gun that works EVERY TIME.
11. Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.
12. Always cheat; always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose.
13. Have a plan.
14. Have a back-up plan, because the first one won't work.
15. Use cover or concealment as much as possible.
16. Flank your adversary when possible. Protect yours.
17. Don't drop your guard.
18. Always tactical load and threat scan 360 degrees.
19. Watch their hands. Hands kill. (In God we trust. Everyone else, keep your hands where I can see them).
20. Decide to be aggressive ENOUGH, quickly ENOUGH.
21. The faster you finish the fight, the less shot up you will get.
22. Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet.
23. Be courteous to everyone, friendly to no one.
24. Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun, the caliber of which does not start with a "4."

Navy Rules for Gunfighting

1. Go to Sea
2. Send the Marines
3. Drink coffee

< Message edited by topcat -- 4/22/2007 7:09:37 AM >

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RE: Weaponry, protecting what's yours - 4/22/2007 7:18:39 AM

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I hear you GRIZZLY,same here except we haven't lock our front or back door in 15 years,with two lab/chows trained to the max there isn't a need.IN my book a good dawg is better then a shotgun.IN stead of looking down the barrel of my steel they are looking at fangs and big ones smile..People are poopooing their right to protect them selfs.call 911 and see how long the response time is... 10 seconds isn't fast enought while in the sights of some thugs gun....bounty

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US going to hell in a hand basket/

(in reply to GrizzlyBear)

RE: Weaponry, protecting what's yours - 4/22/2007 8:06:32 AM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: topcat

Though I own firearms, and am an expert in their use (USMC, including detachment to FBI Quantico as an instructor) and have both combat and social experience in their use, my first choice is a big stick. much Easier to defend in court, and short of a attacker with a firearm, probably the most effective close quarters weapon.

Would be interesting to have your comments on the last few posts in the "Bad Etiquette" thread in the "Ask a Master" forum.

A big stick is a good choice, yes, but I don't have enough experience with one to be confident in my ability to use it effectively yet. It brings more range to the table, though, among other things. Definitely easier to defend in court, but I can also see the police following you around town until you put it down.

Firearms aren't an option for me, since it would be illegal for me to carry one, and the police would be all over my hindquarters if they saw anything remotely resembing a bulge. But I'm not convinced that a firearm is universally better at the range where you'd be able to use a knife, although that's probably a seperate thread all by itself. Whether one stabs or shoots the heart, for instance, is probably fairly academic.

quote:

Consider that Musashi fought most of his duels (to the death) with a stick against a katana.

IIRC, that would be a rokushaku bo in Japanese white oak, which can actually block a katana at a certain angle. Toshitsugu Takamatsu apparently used a bo, as well, and I'm sure any number of historical figures have done so.

But that doesn't necessarily have all that much bearing, since very few people have the time, inclination and determination to acquire that level of skill.

Edit: Nice "rules", by the way.

< Message edited by Aswad -- 4/22/2007 8:07:04 AM >

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to topcat)

RE: Weaponry, protecting what's yours - 4/22/2007 2:51:24 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble
My question is do you, as a Master, feel it's important to be conversant with weaponry whether it be handguns, swords, knives what have you.. in order to protect that which belongs to you? Do you feel it's important that your partner be equally well versed or at least know enough about weaponry to protect themselves?

None. There's a fan I still have from barracks life with a poll that connects the osolating section to the base. Before, I've disconnected that and used it as a rod. That's as close as I can consider to a weapon.

I have not grown up with a need for weapons or protection. I've always lived in "good neighborhoods". ("Very good neighborhoods".) No break-ins, crime, nor anyone who would waist their time with such.
(rant)The only thing I've had the police called for before was a house having a ton of speakers hooked up for a mini-concert, blarring music until around 1AM, when the police had to ask them to turn it down. (It was loud enough you could hear it through ear mufflers, inside the basement of my house, which was a mile away from the source. I have no idea on Earth how the people there could be anything but deaf, nor do I know why on Earth anyone would care for such loud music. The walls of nearby houses were literally shaking. ..excuse the side rant.)(/rant)

This isn't to say I'm against weapons for use in genaral for protecting one's home. The whole "I'll shoot you if you step on my land!" bit does strike me as more than a bit over the top, but keeping an arm available to have a way to fend off violent entries isn't something I would fault.

(in reply to BitaTruble)

RE: Weaponry, protecting what's yours - 4/29/2007 7:13:22 AM

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30/30shotgun,but its hard too get too in the case,22pistal,38 short barral and 25 simi ato

(in reply to DesertRat)

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