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ORIGINAL: LL1aintbehavin
A question did cross my mind with some of the replies that have been given.
Are these subs making themselves come across as someone that needs a strong Master to be competent enough to be able to conquer them.  i guess sort of like sending out a challenge to see if anyone is strong enough to tame them. 
i could be wrong in my thinking, as i am not wired that way.
i prefer a Dominant that inspires the best out of me, not scares or beats me into it.
just my opinion of course.

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ORIGINAL: feastie

I'm not a brat, but neither am I a doormat.  What that means to me is that I'm not going to submit to every Tom, Dick and Harry that comes along.  If a man wants my submission, he'll take the necessary steps to get it.  It's not as if he'd have to "pry it from my cold dead fingers", but he'll have to do a damn sight more than show up. 

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ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

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ORIGINAL: LL1aintbehavin
A question did cross my mind with some of the replies that have been given.
Are these subs making themselves come across as someone that needs a strong Master to be competent enough to be able to conquer them.  i guess sort of like sending out a challenge to see if anyone is strong enough to tame them. 
i could be wrong in my thinking, as i am not wired that way.
i prefer a Dominant that inspires the best out of me, not scares or beats me into it.
just my opinion of course.

It depends what is ment by a 'strong Master'. When it is ment as a challenge on the 'force me to do what I won't willingly do unless I am made to' then, from my PoV it ain't D/s.

When however it is ment as a 'strong Master ' in the terms of someone who will hold to the limits he sets, will be consistent, will not allow a girl to fall into topping from the bottom, then I can quite understand it... what is being said is "I am a submissive and I need someone who IS a Dom, not just someone who plays at being one".... at least that is how I read it and how past girls of mine have ment it when they have said similar things.

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ORIGINAL: Caretakr
The journey is not a battle, it's a seduction.

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My Karma Account is huge, but I just can't seem to make a withdrawal!!

http://cinful.wordpress.com

(in reply to Caretakr)

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ORIGINAL: RavenMuse
"...force them to submit"   Such profiles 'red flag' for me. I won't say they are 'wrong' because it is two adults in a consensual situation, but it isn't D/s from MY perspective. If a girl submits to me she WANTS to give herself to me, she WANTS me to take the control, she WANTS to submit.... where then does the need to force that enter the equation unless it is some childish game. If it takes the spector of a 'cane of Damocles' hanging over their head to get them to obey then it is coercion, not submission. When a girl submits she obeys willingly, she is driven by her wish to make her Master happy, not through fear of punishment.

… Isn't it playing the same 'game'? Where is the submission? Where is the want to serve, the want to please her Master?

The way to a girl’s submission and thus obedience is through her heart and mind, not through her arse and a cane! (Though there are several fun things you can do with that too.  )

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ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

Now with some girls and/or some circumstances a girl will beat herself up too much for having disapointed me.... she punishes herself and can't get closure on the incident. THAT is the only time I will use what most understand as 'punishment'. Because if she can't get closure without something then it needs to be me doing so, it isn't her responcibility, it is MINE and I will be the one deciding what is justified.... but the aim is to close the matter and let her focus possitivly on correcting the behaviour rather than negativly on feeling guilty for the error.

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ORIGINAL: Bearlee

[quote: While negatve stimuli are sometimes be needful- I prefer positive inspiration as the main driver. I usually only mention extremes of control, or punishments, in inital stages.

As a filter, to get rid of wannabes.

Why do you think I mention diapers so often? <WEG>

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ORIGINAL: Bearlee


Okay…before everybody goes off the deep end; I AM only speaking of myself.  Physical punishment seems ludicrous to me.  I like canes and whips and very hard play, first of all; so…how is it I could be physically punished?  (Plus, I’m embarrassed to admit…I find OTK plain ol’ silly).   
 
I’d rather His time be spent devising long, elaborate sessions of wonderful torment for me…as play.
 

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ORIGINAL: Mavis
Not sure why i'm sharing such intimate details, but maybe other subs/slaves that have this deep seated desire for physical punishment outside of attention getting bratting behavior can come out and help explain it? 

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ORIGINAL: Mavis
... One other aspect of it for me is, i don't really enjoy physical scening for "fun"...  it's mostly getting hit,  and if it wasn't for the excitement in His eyes when He gets to use His fav tools, i wouldn't be into impact play at all.    The part i crave is not the physical sensations of sub-space, the chemical reaction to physical input, but the giving up control to His pleasure.  Then i get a more "slave-space" mindset. i feel taken, owned, used (in a positive way) and ..oddly enough, cherished as good property.
Maybe like a red sports car that would feel better being driven at breakneck speed....

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ORIGINAL: Vancouver_cinful

I think this can occasionally be problematic: For ex: I was once asked "Are you a being a slut for me?" in a casual scene, and easily responded in the affirmative, but I have also been asked who I belong to, in a casual scene, and had to stop the scene to clarify whether they wanted a "roleplay" response, which would've been "You, sir.", or the truth, "No one, sir."

As I said, some suspension of disbelief is called for. And yes, that does take some of the pleasure out of the scene for me. I find it almost impossible to be deceptive, even when it is hinted that it would be prefered. LOL

Actually, some of my casual partners find this very amusing, and accuse me of being far too literal for someone in subspace.

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ORIGINAL: Padriag
Raven, I’ve spent a lot of hours thinking of how to respond to this thread. As I read over the posts, and your comments in particular, there were many points I wanted to address. But there were also some "perspectives" on the subject I felt were missing and I wanted to address that as well. It took me awhile to find a beginning point.

Well my friend, those hours definatly produced a quality post and I feel I will possibly need many coffee breaks during typing out the reply

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Each dominant and submissive coming to this lifestyle has different expectations, and as a result will define that control and the method of control and the goals of it differently.

The simple fact that each has a subtly diffrent personality alters the control. Over the last 25 years I have delt with a lot of girls. Whilst my approach and my own personality hasn't change 'that' much during that time, each and every one has had diffrent reactions and needed subtle alterations to that approach. Certainly you can spot traits in common each time and that will clue you in to somethings which have a higher probability of working and others that will likely have an adverse reaction, but you only know for certain once you begin working with the girl and begin to learn who SHE is and how she reacts.

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Reading over Raven’s posts, I would say that his goals for control are to be obeyed purely out of desire. Obedience stems only from a desire to please, a desire to serve, a desire to be useful, etc. These are all very positive motivations.

That to me is proper submission, it is what I want and hence what I set out to draw out of a girl. If I can't see the potential for that, if I can't see the beginings of it, then it isn't someone who I am likely to collar. A lot of other things are optional and if I can't see it there at the begining then I can seek to train for it at a later date, but submission stemming from a desire to please ME (Not just please 'anyone') is a baseline for me, a cornerstone on which I base everything else.

Whilst I CAN work another way, I don't enjoy doing so, it isn't ME and I choose this lifestyle because it is who I am, Hence no compromise on that fundamental point.

It is also tied to one of the most enjoyable aspects of the dynamic, for me, the possitive feedback spiral. She is motivated by pleasing me her submission stems from that desire to please, I am pleased by my girl submitting from the heart. Even if we are doing something she very much doesn't like, she can slip into enjoying doing it for me... the more she does so the more I enjoy those reactions, the more I enjoy those reactions the more pleased she can see I am becoming.... ad infinitum... it can get rather heady

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It also seems from what I read (and feel free to jump in here and correct where I may be wrong Raven), that Raven wishes to avoid obedience out of an avoidance of unpleasant consequences, whether that be punishment, fear, displeasing him, etc. He dislikes using punishment and I suspect does not like to have to discipline.

It depends on what you mean by discipline. If I see a girl of mine doing something wrong, I actualy enjoy sitting down, talking through the what, what and what next. Showing her, teaching her how to do it better. Wether that is just 'how to be a better girl for me' or (Even more enjoyable) how to correct something that is going wrong in her life, helping her to become more than she was. But as you will see, even in the discipline, I prefer the positive approach.

You are right about 'punishment' I dislike it. It should be un-neccessary, but hey, this is the real world and people will be people. Sometimes it is the best course of action, occassionaly it is the only option short of dismissal. I most certainly don't remove it from my 'arsonal' of methodology.

I do use the play aspect to motivate on occassion. I did so last Sunday morning when my girl was slow in moving to get up at 8:30 after a party the night before. It only took my belt comming off to have her upright and heading to make me a coffee, even though it was only 'play' and we where both good natured (Read as 'evily chuckling') about it at the time.

Given what I have already stated about the kind of girl I collar and the methods I employ as well as the fact I dislike having to use punishment and any girl of mine knows that..... when I do end up in a situation where it is the best option it tends to be effective. As I stated in an earlier post, when I have to use 'corner time' the most frequent scenario is a rather tearful girl who is truely sorry and desiring nothing more than to work to put things back to how they 'should be'

I will use physical punishment also, but there mainly, as stated, to bring about a sense of closure. That I don't dislike as intently as it is toward a positive end.

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These goals then determine his methods of achieving control. In his relationship and in what he seeks he places the emphasis on the positive, on the rewards and benefits of doing things right. It would appear the most common punishment in his arsenal is the simple absence of those rewards and benefits.

Not quite, though wether it could be labled as punishment is debateable, it certainly is a negative stimuli though. The 'flash' of disaproval wether in a look, posture or tone of voice is most often more than sufficient to bring a girl who is getting into that grey area with action or attitude which is approaching unaceptable, up short and stop it dead in its tracks. That is by far the most common negative stimuli and most often totaly avoids any behaviour that would warrent more serious action by 'heading it off at the pass'. Prevention being better than cure.

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Some obvious advantages to this style of control is that it does create a very positive oriented environment, it encourages movement towards positive action and positive self image, and it is very conducive to a affectionate and loving relationship. It also requires less effort on the part of the dominant, there will generally be less tension in the relationship and it avoids becoming adversarial.

There is only one part of that where I will disagree with you and this could spark off a whole seperate discussion on its own!

I actualy see the 'punishment' oriented adversarial method as being the one needing less effort! OK I maybe swinging my cane less often given 99.9% of the time I only use it for play, butI can't knock a round peg into a square hole, they try to. Their method takes little account of who the girl is, whilst I am not just adjusting my tactics for each girl, but constantly. I have to be much more mentaly aleart, I have to know my girl much more, communicate more, be aware and to some extent more in control of her whole life, not just what she does when she is with me.

The other way all too often gets you a brat painslut who tops from the bottom or a doormat who is afraid to tell the truth about problems for fear of being punished, so boring and a liar.

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The disadvantages I see is that as a style of control it is less useful in situations that do require stronger measures, while it works well with those already strongly motivated to obey, it will likely not work well with those who need to develop that motivation.

It certainly wouldn't work on most brats, but then most who work in this sort of manner avoid brats like the plague. Send the brats over to the BDSM focused lot, they do well over there .

But I've had a number of inexperienced girls who have compleatly blossomed using this aproach. They have developed well, responded well, got and given much enjoyment.

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As a style it can be limited in its ability to respond to disobedience (particularly when persistent) because its options are limited to mostly the use of reinforcers to encourage or coax desired behavior, but it lacks a range of aversive stimuli or punishments useful in extinguishing undesired behaviors.

The negative stimuli, by comparison seems light to those outside it, however because they are relied upon so little they are subsequently more effective when used. A look of displeasure that would bring my girl to a dead stop would pass totaly un-noticed by a girl used to the other method. She won't respond to anything less than a cane being broken over her behind because it is what she is used to, she has built up a tolerance against negative stimuli

Note I am not talking about pain here, one of my girls was a full blown masochist and play with her was HARD. But she still responded very well to the D/s control and lighter touch negative stimuli (She was one of those I had in mind regarding being in tears during corner time)

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I’m not endorsing or criticizing either style, in fact I view both as being valid.

Likewise, whilst my remarks are critical. Whatever floats their boat and works for them, fine by me.... just not my bag baby and I've giving my opinion of how it looks from here.

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ORIGINAL: Mavis
Not sure why i'm sharing such intimate details,