RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it's not science and all... )

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GotSteel -> RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it's not science and all... ) (12/25/2013 6:19:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri Abstaining from sex, is the most effective form of birth control and STD prevention, though. Opposite of true. The thing about human intuition is that it's often wrong, this is why checking one's assumptions against reality is so imperative. The belligerent refusal to do so by a very opinionated portion of our country has made us the laughingstock of the first world on this and a number of other issues.

DesideriScuri -> RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it's not science and all... ) (12/25/2013 6:22:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MsMJAY quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: MsMJAY The same way we can "practice" going to church but miss a Sunday or two or practice going to work but a take a day off. The same way a lawyer practices law but doesn't do legal work everyday. Just because you slip up, take a day off, or have a moment where you give in does not mean it is not your "practice." It may be an inconsistent practice but it is a practice. Since part of the definition of practice is that it is meant to "improve or maintain proficiency" it stands to reason that results will vary. An individual can have a good practice or a lousy practice. That is why people practicing abstinence (without a backup plan) often do get pregnant. prac·tice /ˈpraktəs/ verb 1. perform (an activity) or exercise (a skill) repeatedly or regularly in order to improve or maintain one's proficiency. 2. carry out or perform (a particular activity, method, or custom) habitually or regularly. https://www.google.com/#q=practicing Abstinence is one of those things, though, that is pretty black and white. If you're having sex, you're not abstaining. Thus, you're not "practicing abstinence." And, just to add a general FYI, I'm not for "abstinence only" sex education. Abstaining from sex, is the most effective form of birth control and STD prevention, though. Calling abstinence birth control is like calling bald a hair color. (no offense) If you don't have any (or are not getting any) then you are really not part of the target demographic (ie- you don't need birth control.) Birth control is to prevent pregnancy in sexually active people. But if abstinence is to be compared as a birth control method it would have to be evaluated the same way every other birth control method is. "Perfect use" vs "typical use." Perfect use effectiveness (that is using it correctly and without fail 100% of the time) for abstinence may well be 100% but its typical use is most likely not even close to that. Choosing to not have sex is a very effective way to prevent pregnancy. Choosing to not have sex is the only way to prevent - 100% of the time - pregnancy (outside of sterilization). Every other method involves some risk of failure, even when used properly. quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri How many pregnancies have happened from practicing abstinence? How can any pregnancies happen from practicing abstinence? Ask of the mighty prophet google that the scales may fall from your eyes. Gee, mighty religious of you, GotSteel. [8D]

DesideriScuri -> RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it's not science and all... ) (12/25/2013 6:28:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri Abstaining from sex, is the most effective form of birth control and STD prevention, though. Opposite of true. The thing about human intuition is that it's often wrong, this is why checking one's assumptions against reality is so imperative. The belligerent refusal to do so by a very opinionated portion of our country has made us the laughingstock of the first world on this and a number of other issues. How does not having sex result in pregnancy and/or STD's?

GotSteel -> RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it's not science and all... ) (12/25/2013 6:30:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri Abstinence is one of those things, though, that is pretty black and white. If you're having sex, you're not abstaining. Thus, you're not "practicing abstinence." This seems like the perfect time to bring up The Loophole

MsMJAY -> RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it's not science and all... ) (12/25/2013 6:38:40 AM)
LOL The loophole also involves, dry humping, mutual masturbation and oral sex for many teens. Teenagers can be very creative when it comes to the definition of "abstinence." Which is probably why studies have shown that STD rates are virtually the same in abstinent vs non-abstinent teens. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/abstaining-teens-still-get-stds/ quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri Abstinence is one of those things, though, that is pretty black and white. If you're having sex, you're not abstaining. Thus, you're not "practicing abstinence." This seems like the perfect time to bring up The Loophole

GotSteel -> RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it's not science and all... ) (12/25/2013 6:38:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri How does not having sex result in pregnancy and/or STD's? If you'd spent a fraction of the time you've wasted repeating this position actually looking then you'd know by now.

kalikshama -> RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it's not science and all... ) (12/25/2013 6:40:25 AM)
quote: How many births have occurred when abstinence was practiced? How many births have occurred when other forms of birth control were practiced? I'm going to hazard a guess that fewer pregnancies have happened from practicing abstinence than from other forms of birth control. While you are entirely correct that no sex = no pregnancies, studies show that trying to teach this is not effective. No-sex programmes 'not working' Sex abstinence programmes do not stop risky sexual behaviour or help in the prevention of unwanted pregnancy, a research team has concluded. The Oxford University team reviewed 13 US trials involving over 15,000 people aged 10 to 21. They found abstinence programmes had no negative or positive impact on the rates of sex infections or unprotected sex, the British Medical Journal said. The latest study, which included trials comparing young people attending abstinence-only programmes against those receiving no sex education, raises questions over whether they work in developed countries. Researchers found none of the abstinence-only programmes had an impact on the age at which individuals lost their virginity, whether they had unprotected sex, the number of sexual partners, the rates of sexually transmitted diseases or the number of pregnancies. One trial did show a short-term benefit with participants reporting that they were less likely to have had sex in the month following one abstinence-only programme. But the researchers said this finding was offset by six other trials that showed the programmes had no effect on the participants' recent sex lives. Another trial even showed that participants in abstinence-only programmes were significantly more likely to report pregnancy and sexually transmitted disease, compared to participants using the usual services. However, other studies did not show this. Read more: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6927733.stm

kalikshama -> RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it's not science and all... ) (12/25/2013 6:44:46 AM)
Teen Pregnancy Rate Among Girls Age 15-19, 2008 (Rate per 1,000) [image]local://upfiles/1052865/71F1C5CFF745465CBD306AF5EBBB370D.jpg[/image]

MsMJAY -> RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it's not science and all... ) (12/25/2013 6:46:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri [Choosing to not have sex is a very effective way to prevent pregnancy. Choosing to not have sex is the only way to prevent - 100% of the time - pregnancy (outside of sterilization). Every other method involves some risk of failure, even when used properly. That is only if you do it 100% of the time. Can you name any other instance where human beings do the same thing 100% of the time? So why would anyone believe that a teen will be abstinent 100% of the time. The primary failure in other forms of birth control is the same failure in abstinence - human error.

DesideriScuri -> RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it's not science and all... ) (12/25/2013 7:56:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MsMJAY quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri [Choosing to not have sex is a very effective way to prevent pregnancy. Choosing to not have sex is the only way to prevent - 100% of the time - pregnancy (outside of sterilization). Every other method involves some risk of failure, even when used properly. That is only if you do it 100% of the time. Can you name any other instance where human beings do the same thing 100% of the time? So why would anyone believe that a teen will be abstinent 100% of the time. The primary failure in other forms of birth control is the same failure in abstinence - human error. If you have sex, you are not abstaining from sex. If you have sex without protection, you are inviting pregnancy, STD's, etc. quote: ORIGINAL: kalikshama While you are entirely correct that no sex = no pregnancies, studies show that trying to teach this is not effective. Thank you for being honest and agreeing with me. I would like to point to part of post #78 (mine): quote: And, just to add a general FYI, I'm not for "abstinence only" sex education. Abstaining from sex, is the most effective form of birth control and STD prevention, though. I realize that "abstinence only" education ignores the reality that many kids are going to choose to not abstain from sex. It doesn't make abstaining from sex any less effective in prevention of pregnancy, though. And, that is precisely what I have been saying. When you are looking for loopholes, you aren't really being abstinent, so if you abstain from sex, you will tend to not contract STD's from sex. There can be transmission as STD's can be transmitted via saliva, and kissing isn't sex.

MsMJAY -> RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it's not science and all... ) (12/25/2013 10:19:11 AM)
quote: If you have sex, you are not abstaining from sex. If you have sex without protection, you are inviting pregnancy, STD's, etc. I think we all agree with that. Where we may disagree is, as the title of this thread points out..... abstinence is not a science. It is a philosophy and as such it obviously means different things to different people. Only the individual practicing it can say whether or not they are practicing abstinence. And they may well be practicing it according to their own philosophy. That's the error of teaching abstinence as birth control or STD prevention. One man's abstinence is another man's freak show. It's no different than when one Christian says that another person is not a "real Christian" ......by who's definition?

sloguy02246 -> RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it's not science and all... ) (12/25/2013 11:47:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kalikshama Teen Pregnancy Rate Among Girls Age 15-19, 2008 (Rate per 1,000) [image]local://upfiles/1052865/71F1C5CFF745465CBD306AF5EBBB370D.jpg[/image] The more I looked at this, the more I realized this looks amazingly like a map of the voting patterns in the last couple of presidential elections. With about three exceptions (CA, IL, and NY) Southern, Republican-majority, Christian, anti-abortion, vote-suppressing states have the highest rates of teen pregnancy. [sm=LMAO.gif]

eulero83 -> RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it's not science and all... ) (12/25/2013 12:33:56 PM)
FR Is it really a problem of sexual education in school or is this kind of sexual education a symptom of a cultural enviroment that disadvantage prevention for teenagers? I'm thinking that if the schools are "discouraged" from talking about contraception it must not be the easiest thing for teenagers to actually buy them. I think even if it's not thaugt in school those kids know how it works with sex, condoms and morning after pills... if not from school probably through TV.

MsMJAY -> RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it's not science and all... ) (12/25/2013 2:00:49 PM)
You are right. Its the cultural environment. Some kids are starting too young to have gotten accurate information. A lot of the "old time myths" still prevail. Condoms can be a little pricey for kids and they would need the extra money to purchase them. The last time I checked you have to be 17 or older to buy Plan B in this state. (If you can afford it, its about 50 bucks.) I personally know several parents whose children have asked them for birth control because they were sexually active and the parents refused to allow them to get BC because "it would be like telling them its ok to have sex. They need to know its a sin." That attitude is not uncommon in the southern area. quote: ORIGINAL: eulero83 FR Is it really a problem of sexual education in school or is this kind of sexual education a symptom of a cultural enviroment that disadvantage prevention for teenagers? I'm thinking that if the schools are "discouraged" from talking about contraception it must not be the easiest thing for teenagers to actually buy them. I think even if it's not thaugt in school those kids know how it works with sex, condoms and morning after pills... if not from school probably through TV.

DesideriScuri -> RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it's not science and all... ) (12/25/2013 8:32:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MsMJAY quote: If you have sex, you are not abstaining from sex. If you have sex without protection, you are inviting pregnancy, STD's, etc. I think we all agree with that. Where we may disagree is, as the title of this thread points out..... abstinence is not a science. It is a philosophy and as such it obviously means different things to different people. Only the individual practicing it can say whether or not they are practicing abstinence. And they may well be practicing it according to their own philosophy. That's the error of teaching abstinence as birth control or STD prevention. One man's abstinence is another man's freak show. It's no different than when one Christian says that another person is not a "real Christian" ......by who's definition? If you're abstaining, then you're not having sex. Otherwise, you're not abstaining. Abstinence is scientific. If a penis doesn't go near your vagina, it's quite a bit more difficult to get pregnant. Since we know that penis-in-vagina intercourse, including male orgasm tends to lead to pregnancy, not doing that prevents pregnancy. That's based on science. As far as the OP's subject goes: you have to take that with a grain of salt, as the OP tends to hyperinflate and mislead. That's not to say he's the only one that does it, or that those that align with his views are the only ones, but it's not an uncommon practice for the OP. Plus, equating abstinence's success rate with the success rate of those whose education is "abstinence only" is disingenuous, at best. And, as I have said, I do not support "abstinence only" education, as it ignores the reality that every kid is going to abstain.

farglebargle -> RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it's not science and all... ) (12/26/2013 4:17:48 AM)
The poster child for ABSTINENCE is Bristol Palin, her bastard child born out of wedlock, and her absentee baby-daddy. Now just stop embarrassing yourself suggesting that it's even a valid strategy for controlling one's reproduction.

MsMJAY -> RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it's not science and all... ) (12/26/2013 5:09:26 AM)
That's really your response? You claim it IS science, make a philosophical argument to prove it and then disparage the OP? Science is based on hypothesis (an educated guess concerning a specific outcome) and facts that are provable through experiment (testing the hypothesis to see if the outcome you guess is correct.) The only way abstinence could be even comparable to science is 1. to guess the outcome: which is no pregnancies or STD's will occur in people who say they use abstinence as birth control. 2. then test the outcome: count the number of pregnancies and STD's that occur in people who say they use abstinence as birth control. Science has proven that there is no statistical difference in the pregnancy/STD rates of teens who say they practice abstinence and those who say they do not. They are statistically the same except those practicing abstinence are less likely to use condoms or any other method of BC. So even if it was a science (which it is not), based on the scientific method it is a failure as a birth control method. quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: MsMJAY quote: If you have sex, you are not abstaining from sex. If you have sex without protection, you are inviting pregnancy, STD's, etc. I think we all agree with that. Where we may disagree is, as the title of this thread points out..... abstinence is not a science. It is a philosophy and as such it obviously means different things to different people. Only the individual practicing it can say whether or not they are practicing abstinence. And they may well be practicing it according to their own philosophy. That's the error of teaching abstinence as birth control or STD prevention. One man's abstinence is another man's freak show. It's no different than when one Christian says that another person is not a "real Christian" ......by who's definition? If you're abstaining, then you're not having sex. Otherwise, you're not abstaining. Abstinence is scientific. If a penis doesn't go near your vagina, it's quite a bit more difficult to get pregnant. Since we know that penis-in-vagina intercourse, including male orgasm tends to lead to pregnancy, not doing that prevents pregnancy. That's based on science. As far as the OP's subject goes: you have to take that with a grain of salt, as the OP tends to hyperinflate and mislead. That's not to say he's the only one that does it, or that those that align with his views are the only ones, but it's not an uncommon practice for the OP. Plus, equating abstinence's success rate with the success rate of those whose education is "abstinence only" is disingenuous, at best. And, as I have said, I do not support "abstinence only" education, as it ignores the reality that every kid is going to abstain.

eulero83 -> RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it's not science and all... ) (12/26/2013 9:26:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri Abstinence is scientific. If a penis doesn't go near your vagina, it's quite a bit more difficult to get pregnant. Since we know that penis-in-vagina intercourse, including male orgasm tends to lead to pregnancy, not doing that prevents pregnancy. That's based on science. Yes but sex is overwhelming, with my first girlfriend there was so much passion that nothing stopped us, not even an audience.

Phydeaux -> RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it's not science and all... ) (12/26/2013 12:34:21 PM)
Most of the studies proclaiming abstinence education does not work are published by places like Naral, planned parenthood, National Journal of Sex Research - ie., places that have a position to push. There are sufficient studies that find abstinence education work. http://archpedi.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=382798 also reported here: http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/02/02/abstinence.study/ And if you look at the NIH grant for this study, it lists other studies also supporting the efficacy of abstinence education.

ThatDaveGuy69 -> RE: End ABSTINANCE "education"! ( Since it's not science and all... ) (12/26/2013 1:05:36 PM)
True abstinence is a great idea. Sort of like being on a strict diet: it only works if you don't cheat. But there's another problem with teaching AO: teens are full of raging hormones and tons of curiosity. So instead of penis-in-vagina intercourse, there has been in increase in teens trying anal sex. But since they weren't taught about proper condom use in the OA class, there has also been an increase in STD's. And no, I'm not going to look up studies - Google it for yourself. And what do you do with the kids who just get to the point where they are going to have sex no matter how much scary stuff you throw at them? What if we used that same model for other classes? Driver's Ed: Seatbelts and airbags are not 100% effective, there is no such thing as safe driving. Therefore, do not drive. Class dismissed. Swim class: People drown in water, swimming is not safe. Therefore, do not swim. Nutrition: Food makes you fat and gives you heart disease. Therefore, do not eat. And let's not forget how well Sarah Palin's AO worked for her daughter. The real bottom line is that people will have sex whether you want them to or not. Boys will hook up with girls, boys will hook up with other boys, and girls will hook up with other girls. It happens every day, every hour, every minute. We can choose to give our young adults the information they need to play safely or we can bury our heads in the sand. But if you're going to advocate Abstinence Only sex ed than you damn-well better fund free clinics for STD's and abortion services because they WILL be needed.

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