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RE: Fear Goggles - 2/22/2014 1:24:05 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ElectraGlide

I was hiking once in the woods and came up behind someone's house so fast it suprised me, there was a guy working on a old car, he held up and pointed what looked like a gun. He said what the hell are you doing here, I told him I got lost, he said can you find your way out of here, I said yes. It was a big chrome socket wrench he was pointing, at first it looked like a gun, it took a few moments to realize what it was. If I left faster I would have swore it was a gun, but our brief conversation I had enough time to know what it was.

No I never shot a real gun, I had BB Guns as a kid. I grew up in a safe feeling suburban neighborhood, no one there felt a need for a gun, I am sure people there had guns.


It's a damn good thing you got the hell out of there or he may have gone metric on you.

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RE: Fear Goggles - 2/22/2014 1:52:31 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
Dude, you usually have better arguments than this one. In fact, you usually know well enough not to step into this kind of bullshit....



There is no bullshit to step into. It's like discussing a movie, where no one has seen anything but the trailer, or a book based on the cover.

The concept is interesting. There might be some meat, it might be a hack job. Who can tell?

I met a friend out at my shooting spot this morning. He had never touched a gun in his life, but a body was found not far from his house in the last few days, beaten to death, and dumped in the street, and it freaked him and his woman out a bit. He thinks he needs to go buy a gun.

When I handed him the (unloaded) shotgun, and told him to get the feel of it in his hands, he was like a kid for a couple minutes. A safety lecture, mechanical demonstration, and one old tv set later, he has a tiny foundation of knowledge and experience to build on, and he'll have a sore shoulder for a couple days to aid in his reflection.

Who were the test subjects? It's a very simple question, but it makes a world of difference in evaluating the outcome.



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RE: Fear Goggles - 2/22/2014 2:05:55 PM   
jlf1961


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

Original: http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/xhp/38/5/1159/
In five experiments, participants determined whether another person was holding a gun or a neutral object. Critically, the participant did this while holding and responding with either a gun or a neutral object. Responding with a gun biased observers to report “gun present” more than did responding with a ball. Thus, by virtue of affording a perceiver the opportunity to use a gun, he or she was more likely to classify objects in a scene as a gun and, as a result, to engage in threat-induced behavior (raising a firearm to shoot).



Does research such as this in conjunction with laws legalizing the killing of another human being whenever the shooter thinks they need to troubling?





Fear is relative to environment, there for a study such as this is pretty much bullshit.

In my experience, if you dont want to get into a situation that could devolve to life or death, then keep your ass out of areas where this could become all to real.

There are parts of my town that I do not go into after dark unless I have a damn good reason... This is true for just about every city or town with a population of over 10,000.

In a few of the recent "stand your ground" trials I have questioned many of the verdicts, not so much in the eyes of the court, but from the possible psychological prospective of the defendants. Some of the defense statements clearly showed a racial bias of the defendant, which would alter what they saw as a threat.

For this type of study to actually be valid in my opinion, some stress inducing factors need to be introduced.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

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(in reply to GotSteel)
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RE: Fear Goggles - 2/22/2014 2:11:26 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

So basically what your saying is, a study is not 'correct' nor 'accurate', unless *ALL* the people being tested are 100%, Grade A, Gun Nuts?



Taking this separately.

Do believe the conversation is enhanced by characterizing anyone familiar with firearms as "gun nuts?" Is the only way to avoid being a "gun nut" to be in a state of ignorance and fear about firearms?

For someone who claims to value educational achievement, why do you worship ignorance when it comes to guns?



_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to joether)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Fear Goggles - 2/22/2014 2:43:48 PM   
igor2003


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--FR--

In reading the one short paragraph linked to in the OP, it seems either the test itself, the written paragraph, or both were presented with a great deal of bias. The test subjects were apparently given only two options to present as answers...either a mundane object (ball), or a gun. They only had a 50/50 option and had to respond with either a ball or a gun. What objects were they shown? From what distance? How much of each object was concealed (in a hand, partially hidden in pocket, etc.)? How long was the object exposed? How long did they have to respond? And I presume that the tests were done in a neutral, non-situational environment. Also, what information was each test subject given before testing? Without considerably more information about the tests it seems that any conclusions about how likely a person is to pull a weapon would be totally invalid.

Just my opinion.

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(in reply to TheHeretic)
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RE: Fear Goggles - 2/22/2014 3:32:12 PM   
jlf1961


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quote:

ORIGINAL: igor2003

--FR--

In reading the one short paragraph linked to in the OP, it seems either the test itself, the written paragraph, or both were presented with a great deal of bias. The test subjects were apparently given only two options to present as answers...either a mundane object (ball), or a gun. They only had a 50/50 option and had to respond with either a ball or a gun. What objects were they shown? From what distance? How much of each object was concealed (in a hand, partially hidden in pocket, etc.)? How long was the object exposed? How long did they have to respond? And I presume that the tests were done in a neutral, non-situational environment. Also, what information was each test subject given before testing? Without considerably more information about the tests it seems that any conclusions about how likely a person is to pull a weapon would be totally invalid.

Just my opinion.



No shit!!!

Even the studies the DOD funded to find ways to prevent soldiers in combat zone from shooting anyone who remotely looks like the are holding a gun. These studies are done in controlled lab style environments.

There is no connection to a real situation or the flow of adrenalin that may be present.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to igor2003)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Fear Goggles - 2/22/2014 8:05:44 PM   
cloudboy


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Great comments. Personally I don't own a gun because I don't want to shoot anyone or get anyone in my household shot.

I have a hard time understanding the whole concept of safety and gun ownership. The only downside for me is I'm not prepared for the zombie apocalypse.

I've never been able to understand how the republicans can intertwine guns and Christianity. The same guy mad as hell the local courthouse can't post the 10 commandments owns an arsenal in his basement.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 2/22/2014 8:06:16 PM >

(in reply to igor2003)
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RE: Fear Goggles - 2/22/2014 9:41:13 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

The same guy mad as hell the local courthouse can't post the 10 commandments owns an arsenal in his basement.



Sure, Cloudboy, and plenty of yellow-dog Democrat union guys have a similar collection. Yes. A larger percentage of Republicans will report owning guns than Democrats, but it's hardly exclusive. This is only a gentler version of the "anyone who knows about or has experience with guns is automatically a nut" approach offered up by others.

As far as it goes though, the Christian connection as I have encountered it comes from Jesus telling his followers to make sure they had a couple swords among them, as they went out into the world.





_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Fear Goggles - 2/22/2014 10:08:30 PM   
RottenJohnny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist
If you have a pussy, does everything looks like a dick?

In a different context, this question could be worthy of its own thread.

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RE: Fear Goggles - 2/23/2014 1:00:59 AM   
evesgrden


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

quote:

ORIGINAL: evesgrden
When you're holding a hammer everything looks like a nail.

So if you have a gun everything looks like a target?
If you have a pussy, does everything looks like a dick?

The study is true by my experience. When I buy a certain model car, I start to notice other people with that same model car. When I started carrying a gun, I spotted other people's holsters more often.

However, owning a car doesn't make want to run people over with it. Owning a gun doesn't make want to shoot people. Knowing martial arts doesn't make me want to karate chop people and carrying a knife doesn't make me want to stab people. In fact, if there is any modification to my thoughts, having the power of life and death over others makes me more responsible for my actions in the matter. The same way having power over and being responsible for my s-type makes me more careful about what I say and do.

If holding a hammer really makes everything look like a nail, instead of inspiring you to build something nice, I hope you never own a gun.



I am merely making the point that when people are in possession of certain tools, they are inclined to use them because they can.

Hammers: drive nails.
Guns: shoot targets.

Which targets and under what circumstances? Devils in the details. But if you're holding a gun you're going to be on the lookout for targets more than if you're not holding a gun. Just like if you were using your hammer for something, you look around the deck to see if there are any nails starting to pop up that need to be tapped back in before putting the hammer away. Or were there some pictures you wanted to hang. Experience will dictate whether you ding the wall up or pound a finger. Not sure why you were thinking the hammer was to be used destructively. That wasn't my intent.. the point was that when it's in your hand there is the urge to use it.

In an experiment, much like a video game, the consequence (if any) for being wrong is negligible other than knowing you were wrong. You're just waiting for a threat to shoot at and hence would likely have less concern about shooting something that at first appears to be a threat but ultimately might not be.

In real life, cost of error is overshadowed by fear in a lot of cases. Someone who's great at the range (if they even go) simply may not have what it takes to have the presence of mind to remain calm and ause restraint as necessary during a crisis.

One last thing.. another study:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9715182

Injuries and deaths due to firearms in the home
"During the study interval (12 months in Memphis, 18 months in Seattle, and Galveston) 626 shootings occurred in or around a residence. This total included 54 unintentional shootings, 118 attempted or completed suicides, and 438 assaults/homicides. Thirteen shootings were legally justifiable or an act of self-defense, "


Doesn't that speak volumes?
438 assault/homicides, 13 legally justifiable.
Just less than 3%.
So......97% of the time, someone deliberately squeezed the trigger and mistakenly shot someone they shouldn't have. And this data doesn't (and couldn't) reflect how often someone goes to shoot someone whom they mistakenly presume to be a threat, and simply misses.







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RE: Fear Goggles - 2/23/2014 3:10:13 AM   
joether


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
Dude, you usually have better arguments than this one. In fact, you usually know well enough not to step into this kind of bullshit....

Who were the test subjects? It's a very simple question, but it makes a world of difference in evaluating the outcome.


The test subjects are those selected for the study, their identities are kept private. Since you disagree with it, therefore none of the subjects are good nor proficient with a firearm. That's not something based on fact or study, but belief. An that is exactly what should be put to the test in a series of studies. Seeing how much of the belief is true, and how much is not. That is why we hear studies that show a long held belief was true and most of us said 'no shit, really?". On the other hand, studies have found some beliefs mostly or completely untrue.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Fear Goggles - 2/23/2014 3:26:11 AM   
joether


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
So basically what your saying is, a study is not 'correct' nor 'accurate', unless *ALL* the people being tested are 100%, Grade A, Gun Nuts?

Taking this separately.

Do believe the conversation is enhanced by characterizing anyone familiar with firearms as "gun nuts?" Is the only way to avoid being a "gun nut" to be in a state of ignorance and fear about firearms?

For someone who claims to value educational achievement, why do you worship ignorance when it comes to guns?


I believe it was NBC working with the Philly PD a few years back that created a firearm study to test how effective firearms trainings were for self defense in a semi-real situation. They took thirty some odd college students and gave them a free firearms safety course. Much like most in the country. Going over how to handle, store, clean and other tasks important to good firearm usage and safety. Then they gave them additional training in drawing the firearm quickly and accurately. So the test was set for a mock lecture on body armor (how many basic trainings go over that?). The video is on youtube somewhere. I'm not stating you have to accept the results or anything like that.

What I am asking is for you to understand the study itself. How was it performed? How were the test subjects gathered? I believe the initial hypothesis was to determine if someone with a firearm could change the circumstances of a mass shooting from 'badly and/or deadly' to 'eliminating the threat'. Since mass shootings have taken place on college campuses, it seems rather natural to draw on college students. The advantage here is their hand-eye coordination would be at its natural peak with minimal body limitations. And they had to perform the test under as real a condition as possible without anyone getting hurt (i.e. the body arm lecture). The data they collected showed of the limited number that didn't flee during the encounter, all got shot dead with only one of them injuring the suspect. Now, we can argue for or against the outcome all day. That's not the point of my argument here. My argument is that MORE of these sort of studies should be under taken. Include different age groups, backgrounds, and what ever else researchers could test. Set up the experiments so as not to give the subject an advantage or disadvantage (i.e. a neutral test). Perhaps a control group made up of proficient and experienced shooters to allow researchers a way of comparing results?

And separate facts from fiction. Does that not sound like a wise course of action?

(in reply to TheHeretic)
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RE: Fear Goggles - 2/23/2014 4:44:14 AM   
Yachtie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

Personally I don't own a gun because I don't want to shoot anyone or get anyone in my household shot.



I hope also that you do not have stairs, anything that uses fire, electricity, or anything else that might conceivably be useful in some manner in harming anyone.


_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

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RE: Fear Goggles - 2/23/2014 5:03:18 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
So basically what your saying is, a study is not 'correct' nor 'accurate', unless *ALL* the people being tested are 100%, Grade A, Gun Nuts?

Taking this separately.

Do believe the conversation is enhanced by characterizing anyone familiar with firearms as "gun nuts?" Is the only way to avoid being a "gun nut" to be in a state of ignorance and fear about firearms?

For someone who claims to value educational achievement, why do you worship ignorance when it comes to guns?


I believe it was NBC working with the Philly PD a few years back that created a firearm study to test how effective firearms trainings were for self defense in a semi-real situation. They took thirty some odd college students and gave them a free firearms safety course. Much like most in the country. Going over how to handle, store, clean and other tasks important to good firearm usage and safety. Then they gave them additional training in drawing the firearm quickly and accurately. So the test was set for a mock lecture on body armor (how many basic trainings go over that?). The video is on youtube somewhere. I'm not stating you have to accept the results or anything like that.

What I am asking is for you to understand the study itself. How was it performed? How were the test subjects gathered? I believe the initial hypothesis was to determine if someone with a firearm could change the circumstances of a mass shooting from 'badly and/or deadly' to 'eliminating the threat'. Since mass shootings have taken place on college campuses, it seems rather natural to draw on college students. The advantage here is their hand-eye coordination would be at its natural peak with minimal body limitations. And they had to perform the test under as real a condition as possible without anyone getting hurt (i.e. the body arm lecture). The data they collected showed of the limited number that didn't flee during the encounter, all got shot dead with only one of them injuring the suspect. Now, we can argue for or against the outcome all day. That's not the point of my argument here. My argument is that MORE of these sort of studies should be under taken. Include different age groups, backgrounds, and what ever else researchers could test. Set up the experiments so as not to give the subject an advantage or disadvantage (i.e. a neutral test). Perhaps a control group made up of proficient and experienced shooters to allow researchers a way of comparing results?

And separate facts from fiction. Does that not sound like a wise course of action?




What does any of that have to do with you painting anyone familiar with a gun as a gun nut? He asked a couple of really good questions that you seem to have missed.

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(in reply to joether)
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RE: Fear Goggles - 2/23/2014 5:31:30 AM   
Yachtie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

What does any of that have to do with you painting anyone familiar with a gun as a gun nut? He asked a couple of really good questions that you seem to have missed.


They weren't missed so much as tactically ignored.


_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

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RE: Fear Goggles - 2/23/2014 9:12:05 AM   
cloudboy


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Good post. The facts show gun ownership makes your household less safe. People, though, prefer "feeling safe," and that's why so many own guns.

(in reply to evesgrden)
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RE: Fear Goggles - 2/23/2014 10:15:19 AM   
TheHeretic


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I'm just curious, Evesgrden. Do you own or travel in a car?


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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to evesgrden)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Fear Goggles - 2/23/2014 10:53:11 AM   
evesgrden


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

I'm just curious, Evesgrden. Do you own or travel in a car?



Just an idle piece of trivia that caught your passing fancy? Does she or doesn't she? If I were a bettin' woman, I'd be betting me that you're baiting me. Color me skeptical.

Ok I'll play. Hold on to your hat. Not only do I own a car, I travel in it too.

Now what is it that you really want to ask?

_____________________________

What you permit, you promote.

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Fear Goggles - 2/23/2014 11:04:38 AM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: evesgrden

Now what is it that you really want to ask?



That was the question, and I appreciate a straightforward answer. There are fewer cars in the US than there are guns, so I thought it best to check.



_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to evesgrden)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Fear Goggles - 2/23/2014 12:54:26 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
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No baiting. No 'gotcha' stats, taken out of context. No apples and oranges comparisons. Just simple facts.

Cars are inherently dangerous things. We restrict who can use them, mandate training and testing for those so allowed, constantly update and improve the minimum safety standards, yet tens of thousands of lives are lost to them every year. Many of those deaths are the result of people who have passed all the tests and training still choosing to be stupid and irresponsible.

We have cars, and we use them, because the benefits outweigh the risks.



_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 40
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