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RE: Are WE racists? - 7/16/2006 10:54:53 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
Personally, I think racism is dangerous and if it goes unchecked can spiral out of control. Thus, society has a duty to sort it out.

Why? Why don't YOU have a duty to sort it out? Who is 'society', Northerngent?

Society is YOU and ME. Again, see how you and BlkTall simply complain about it ad infinitum, then end by saying that 'someone else must sort it out'?

< Message edited by Lilmissbossy -- 7/16/2006 10:57:53 AM >

(in reply to NorthernGent)

RE: Are WE racists? - 7/16/2006 11:03:00 AM

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In the U.S. now "Affirmative Action" seems to apply to everyone (except) white males.
It started out as a way to help out black people in the 1960's.
Now,we have Asians, "Hispanics", (whatever that is) Native Americans, Pacific Islanders (why?) and "Women" covered under it!
My question is how did it get so out of control?
It started with the origional intent to help blacks and everyone else just jumped on the bandwagon over the years?
Oh, I forgot Homosexuals!
Just another of those out of control "government programs."
And when is it going to end now that all of those groups have been given a "hand up" for the last 40 years or so?
Surely it wasn't designed to last "forever."

(in reply to meatcleaver)

RE: Are WE racists? - 7/16/2006 11:13:04 AM

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popeye,

Its not about just giving a "hand up" though is it. Anyone serious about politics just wants to see a level playing field. You mention gay men/women - do you not think something had to be done to redress the balance? Its not that long ago that gay men were imprisoned for living their lives - surely that is not right.

I'm only talking about a level playing-field, nothing more than that.

(in reply to popeye1250)

RE: Are WE racists? - 7/16/2006 11:16:20 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

lol meatcleaver,

When did I say all whites are racist? There are loads of good left-wingers who are doing their best to redress the balance. Unfortunately, we have a lot of Conservatives in our country who do their best to maintain the status quo. Its not an easy battle to win.

Chinese ahead of whites in stats? Name me a Chinese-Britain who has any influence in the running of the country or top businesses. It is a 100% fact that this country is ran by whites over and above the propotion of whites in British society.

Are you now saying we should parachute people in because of their race? I haven't noticed that many ethnic minorities making it in left wing institutions. If not, what are your solutions other than bleating? People in visible positions of power prove nothing, that could come down to cultural choices. Having in my younger days been active in politics and unions, I gave it up because I couldn't stand the pettiness and corruption and the endless points of order to keep people out and keep the status quo. I can understand why many people wouldn't care to take that route.

As for your general derogatory statement about Conservatives I don't buy it and I'm not a conservative. I haven't noticed any marked difference between left or right.

Chineese and Indians come out higher than whites in education and are well above average in wealth according to government stats. But a clue is and I'm going to use an anecdote which you can brush aside because it doesn't fall in line with your stats. My parents live in an all white area between white suburbia and a rural area with no ethnic minority population to talk of. However, there are Indian and Chineese businesses, chemists, computer services etc. Not the traditional restuarants though they can be found. There is only a white population to keep their businesses going so they are not being shunned. Could it be that these people are being enterprising and following capital?

There are many wealthy people from the ethnic minorities. Look in the Times richest 100.

As for people being represented, I've never felt I've been represented in Britain. That has nothing to do with race because I'm white but because I simply don't identify with the sort of people that seek power that way and those people I have met that do and I have met more than a few, I've never found I had a great respect for them as individuals.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 7/16/2006 11:25:32 AM >

(in reply to NorthernGent)

RE: Are WE racists? - 7/16/2006 11:21:53 AM

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misplaced post

< Message edited by maybemaybenot -- 7/16/2006 11:22:52 AM >

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RE: Are WE racists? - 7/16/2006 11:32:14 AM

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meatcleaver,

Speaking of Chinese I must be talking Chinese because everytime I say something you turn it into something it is not.

I am simply talking about a level playing-field. Let's have people running the country who are representative of the population - not a disproportionate number of white middle class Britons. Only then will we see a country ran for all of the people.

I have mentioned solutions that need far more exploration than this space can afford - e.g. regeneration schemes, sporting schemes, community programmes, mixed schools to encourage equality, media reporting which actually discusses the problems with British foreign policy etc - it will take years to redress a system rotten to the core with racism, it is not an overnight job or a simple solution. As said, what do you want me to do? produce a document signed and sealed with the blood of the House of Parliament? - there are many people who believe in the ideals of the left such as social justice, internationalism and the collective who would love to be in a position to implement what they believe in. Unfortunately, Britain is a conservative country at heart so the left are very rarely in a position to put words into actions - this doesn't mean the left don't have solutions, it just means they can't get anywhere near power to implement them because we have too many people in this country completely suffocated by the individualism that globalisation breeds.

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RE: Are WE racists? - 7/16/2006 11:59:41 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

I have mentioned solutions that need far more exploration than this space can afford - e.g. regeneration schemes, sporting schemes, community programmes, mixed schools to encourage equality, media reporting which actually discusses the problems with British foreign policy etc - it will take years to redress a system rotten to the core with racism, it is not an overnight job or a simple solution. As said, what do you want me to do? produce a document signed and sealed with the blood of the House of Parliament? - there are many people who believe in the ideals of the left such as social justice, internationalism and the collective who would love to be in a position to implement what they believe in. Unfortunately, Britain is a conservative country at heart so the left are very rarely in a position to put words into actions - this doesn't mean the left don't have solutions, it just means they can't get anywhere near power to implement them because we have too many people in this country completely suffocated by the individualism that globalisation breeds.

I'm not convinced by regeneration schemes run by government. From what I have seen they create a parallel economy and simply bring in white professionals from outside an area and genrally fail.

As for Parliament I think Tony Benn got it right when he said by the time meaningful reform has become law it is merely being rubber stamped and claimed to be owned by politicians but has usually long been the norm in the country.

I don't see a problem with individualism. It is the dynamic individuals that make change happen, not committees which generally suffocate anything with energy and vision.

Globalisation has its problems but it is increasing the wealth of the third world but I admit that can be dashed by the selfishness of the developed world. Trade and enterprise will take Africa out of poverty if the first world allows honest fair trade. The biggest asset of any country is its people and Africa has had its potential exploited by a corrupt elite all to willing to sell the continent's soul to the highest bidder.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

RE: Are WE racists? - 7/16/2006 12:42:44 PM

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NorthernGent
my point earlier. Rasicm exists in every race and culture. Multiple interpretations can be read from almost any set of statistics. The Commision for Racial Equality exists to look for specific issues and has a broadening scope and role. When someone disagrees with part of the Commision for Racial Equalities conclusions because they suggest additional influencing factors there is a chorus of your a Racist chants. This then actually creates Racism because it is viewed that only one point of view is allowed. Any extremism and bigotry is dangerous but positive descrimination is also counter productive.
Your statements of "cocktail of institutional racism & poverty preventing black Britons from having the same opportunities.." .. "a system rotten to the core with racism" is emotive stuff but actually not accurate when taken in a global context or even a UK context. Most Large organisations and Institutions in Western (which hapen to be predominantly caucasian) countries have systems that ensure minorities particulalry ethnic minorities have more time and effort spent on checks and balances to ensure they have been treated fairly, than for cases invovling the majority ethnic group. Your position is too (to coin a phrase) BLACK and WHITE in your argument, and this position taken by certain left leaning politics is perpetuating Racism to the point where it explodes - e.g. recent riots. Interestingly the Peterborough troubles were between Asians and Blacks. Globally Racism is everywhere and often in a more ugly violent manner than within western democracies (this is taking a loose interpretation of race). Is India looking at it's caste system in the same way as the US on its Race issues? I will look further at some of the links you have put forward. A level playing field is exactly that level. If we take out those born with privalege the statistics can be doctored to suite anyones point of view. The real crux is that colour of skin should be irrelevent but the behaviour, attitude and aptitude of someone needs to be the bench mark, unfortunately inadequacies in these areas are sometimes claimed to be part of someones ethnic culture.......and we are back to "YOUR A RACIST"... rather than are you the best candidate for the position / college / etc etc etc. As another anocdote I have personel experience of taking far more time to dismiss ethnic minorities for incopetence than non ethnic minorities because potentially the penalties are unlimited, fact was they couldn't or wouldn't do the job to the required standard. Positive descrimination in favour of ethnic minorities happens everywhere already and actually perpetuates a diservice to the vast majority of people who look deeper than skin colour.

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RE: Are WE racists? - 7/16/2006 1:08:01 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

I am simply talking about a level playing-field. Let's have people running the country who are representative of the population - not a disproportionate number of white middle class Britons. Only then will we see a country ran for all of the people.

I really am sorry to keep picking on these postings but if anyone wants to run the country, they can. By standing for election and acquiring the endorsement of the people via the ballot box, not by someone playing 'pick a colour'. You can't just install someone into Government, no matter how talented, without going through the same democratic process as everyone else. So again, the playing field is already level.

quote:

I have mentioned solutions that need far more exploration than this space can afford - e.g. regeneration schemes, sporting schemes, community programmes, mixed schools to encourage equality, media reporting which actually discusses the problems with British foreign policy etc - it will take years to redress a system rotten to the core with racism, it is not an overnight job or a simple solution.

You won't answer but who do you propose pays for all this and will you ask them if that's how they want their money spending? Also, how many state schools do you know that aren't mixed already? As far as I'm aware, every state school in the country is.

quote:

Unfortunately, Britain is a conservative country at heart so the left are very rarely in a position to put words into actions - this doesn't mean the left don't have solutions, it just means they can't get anywhere near power to implement them because we have too many people in this country completely suffocated by the individualism that globalisation breeds.

The real reason the left can't get anywhere near power to implement them is because they can't get enough people to vote for their ideologies.

In the cold and democratic light of day, the truth is simply that not enough people agree with you to vote them into practice.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

RE: Are WE racists? - 7/16/2006 1:23:46 PM

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Dtesmoac

1) I haven't "yelled racist" at anyone apart from the original poster. I did ask why people were so desperate to swerve a body of evidence from respected sources that suggests Britain does not offer equal opportunities - I'm still waiting for an answer.

2) All I am saying is there is nothing like equal opportunities in Britain. The evidence supports this statement. Rather than launch into a tirade of " positive discrimination" feel free to address this simple question - are there equal opportunites in Britain? If not, should we be doing something about it?

3) It is not emotive stuff - read the links I have posted a) there is institutional racism b) black Britons are living in poverty well beyond the percentage of the population - look at the stats for employment opportunities and the prison population. Why on earth would we be in a situation where ethnic minorites (in relation to the size of the population) are three times more likely to be homeless? Are you ignoring what I have posted?

4) You say "Most Large organisations and Institutions in Western (which hapen to be predominantly caucasian) countries have systems that ensure minorities particulalry ethnic minorities have more time and effort spent on checks and balances to ensure they have been treated fairly, than for cases invovling the majority ethnic group." Are you serious? You're something like four times more likely to be stopped by the police in Britain if you're black - is that fair treatment by large organisations?

5) I'm not talking about just propelling a member of the ethnic community into CEO of HSBC or wherever. I'm talking about building the grass roots so members of ethnic communities have long-term equal opportunity, It can't be done overnight but it is society's duty.

6) I am really interested to hear why you refuse to accept the facts that are staring you in the face - Britain does not allow equal opportunities. It is people like you who prevent the neceassary change from happening because you are blind to the problmes we have, you refuse to see it. Then you blame the left for positive discrimination which is laughable - the left just want to see equality, nothing more, nothing less. It is a sad fact that there are far too many conservatives/right-wing reactionaries in Britain to allow the necessary change to happen. I'm not holding my breath as sadly I can't see a chnage for the forseeable future. But at least I have my principles, beliefs and a certain amount of empathy - sadly, lacking in others.

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RE: Are WE racists? - 7/16/2006 1:55:21 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

popeye,

Its not about just giving a "hand up" though is it. Anyone serious about politics just wants to see a level playing field. You mention gay men/women - do you not think something had to be done to redress the balance? Its not that long ago that gay men were imprisoned for living their lives - surely that is not right.

I'm only talking about a level playing-field, nothing more than that.

You are talking nonsense. Absolute rubbish. As usual.

There has NEVER been a level playing field up until the last 50 years when people started crying the blues and feeling sorry for themselves. Yet here we are, tens of thousands of years later and we are all still alive and kicking. If there is one thing evolution taught us is that the strong survive. This socialist "level playing field" nonsense is exactly that. Nonsense. You want to succeed? Get off your lazy ass, stop looking for a free handout and do something constructive with yourself besides marching down the streets, waving your flags and crying about how hard done by you are.

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RE: Are WE racists? - 7/16/2006 2:02:16 PM

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Dtesmoac

1) I haven't "yelled racist" at anyone apart from the original poster. I did ask why people were so desperate to swerve a body of evidence from respected sources that suggests Britain does not offer equal opportunities - I'm still waiting for an answer.
I didn't say you as in personal that seems to have been dealt with in the thread. When someone disagrees with the conclusions of the Commision for Racial Equality the acusation is made that they are racist. The default setting on this thread appears to be white = racist.

2) All I am saying is there is nothing like equal opportunities in Britain. The evidence supports this statement. Rather than launch into a tirade of " positive discrimination" feel free to address this simple question - are there equal opportunites in Britain? If not, should we be doing something about it?
When compared to most of the countries and peoples in the world today Britain has far more effort to address this. The inequalities that all ethnic people face are not all by default down to their race & not all the poverty they experience is by default down to their race.

3) It is not emotive stuff - read the links I have posted a) there is institutional racism b) black Britons are living in poverty well beyond the percentage of the population - look at the stats for employment opportunities and the prison population. Why on earth would we be in a situation where ethnic minorites (in relation to the size of the population) are three times more likely to be homeless? Are you ignoring what I have posted?
I'm not ignoring the posts I unfortunately can not spend all day on the forum and have been away for a week. I will check some of the data however a clear example as pointed out is that not all ethnic minorities fail to the same degree and so the blanket statements on cocktail of institutional racism and rotten to the core are not accurate. The situation now is not what it was in the 50s or in the US during segregation or in South Africa during apartite. Thos were conditions of "rotten to the core". Black britons do live in poverty (interesting deffinition of course) at a higher percentage of the population but that is a historical legacy which is not due to "institutional racism" now.
The positive descrimination angle is inferred in various parts of this thread.

4) You say "Most Large organisations and Institutions in Western (which hapen to be predominantly caucasian) countries have systems that ensure minorities particulalry ethnic minorities have more time and effort spent on checks and balances to ensure they have been treated fairly, than for cases invovling the majority ethnic group." Are you serious? You're something like four times more likely to be stopped by the police in Britain if you're black - is that fair treatment by large organisations?
Is stop and search instigated in areas of high crime - yes, in those areas of high crime are there high levels of poverty - yes, is the ethnic mix in those areas predominantly non white - yes, would you expect a higher number of coloured people to be stopped - probably yes, why are the other ethnic mixes in those areas not also much higher on the stop and search figures, the assumption is that it must be because or institutional rasicm but the data does not prove this it simply raises a set of questions one of which could be rasicm. I suspect that part of it is to do with behaviour, perception and dress code as much as "race". e.g. the "hoody" inferences etc. To always shout all evils are race is over simplistic.

5) I'm not talking about just propelling a member of the ethnic community into CEO of HSBC or wherever. I'm talking about building the grass roots so members of ethnic communities have long-term equal opportunity, It can't be done overnight but it is society's duty.
I don't disagree but for some parts of society e.g going from fuedal to artisan to merchant etc took a hell of a lot longer than 25 years. Imigrants had little wealth when they arrived, were initally discriminated against, are significantly less discriminated against now and have started to build a wealth base in some areas - look at the Jews in the UK or the Irish, the same process happened, so why do we say Racism when only some groups do not move forward as fast as one would wish. There are large hell holes of poverty with whites trapped in them, for these is race quoted?

6) I am really interested to hear why you refuse to accept the facts that are staring you in the face - Britain does not allow equal opportunities. It is people like you who prevent the neceassary change from happening because you are blind to the problmes we have, you refuse to see it. Then you blame the left for positive discrimination which is laughable - the left just want to see equality, nothing more, nothing less. It is a sad fact that there are far too many conservatives/right-wing reactionaries in Britain to allow the necessary change to happen. I'm not holding my breath as sadly I can't see a chnage for the forseeable future. But at least I have my principles, beliefs and a certain amount of empathy - sadly, lacking in others.
I just see the reality I meet when I work in factories with significant racial mixes, the majority of the individuals are not overtly or predominantly racist, there are some mingled in, of all colours. There are managers, accountants, supervisors, operatives and engineers of multiple ethnicity some are effective some are not, they are there on merit but when one is failing the process for non majority ethnicity is more pains taking than for the majority. If the system was rotten to the core or a cocktail of instituitional racism (your words not mine) they would be removed instantly. The world has changes and moved, the langauge and arguments need to move with it. If you wish to talk racism then France, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Brazil, Denmark and India may be better examples than the UK.
You made the mistake again of specificly stating "people like you" (i.e me) and then lauding your own principles, beliefs and empathy - possibly an over smplification on your behalf but commonly made on these threads - I won't be offended!! LOL.

A fairer comparison would be to take the "poor & disadvantaged of all colours and creeds" and see how they compare. You probably won't agree and thats fine but we clearly have very different experiences.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

RE: Are WE racists? - 7/16/2006 2:25:50 PM

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Gent, I want a level playing field as well!
In the 1970's in Boston if you were a "minority" you "only" had to score a 35 on the Civil Service Exam to become a Police Officer or Firefighter!
How is that "leveling the playing field?"
Giving important jobs like that to people who can't pass tests?
They ended up having to send almost all of the "minority" Police Officers to North Eastern University for remedial reading and writing courses because they couldn't even fill out a proper Police report!
What if you had a Police report that wasn't filled out correctly and were denied an insurance settlement for tens of thousands of dollars? Or worse!
Or what about a "minority" Firefighter who couldn't pass an Emergency Medical Technician course and didn't know how to properly perform Cardio Pulmonary Resusitation on a dying victim?
It used to be that if you were a Veteran you went to the top of the list for Firefighter or Police Officer as your service to the country and also to a large extent, your military training made you very suitable for those positions.
Are you starting to see how "Social Engineering" just doesn't work?
It's simple, if you want to get on the Fire or Police you need to STUDY the courses and for the examination.

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RE: Are WE racists? - 7/16/2006 2:55:37 PM

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NorthernGent

Britain over the last couple of years has absorbed 600,000 east Europeans, the biggest peace time demographic shift in Europe. They have gone to Britain because there are jobs that aren't being filled. The reason the jobs haven't been filled is because the available pool of workers in Britain didn't have the right skills or education. I find it difficult to believe that employers who are desperate to fill vacancies purposely rejected British based workers because of their colour and prefered to wait for European Expansion to employ white Europeans, it just doesn't make business sense. The purpose of business is to make money, not to socially engineer a society. Why would a company reject highly skilled people and jeopardise their profits because they don't want to take on ethnic minority workers? This is the reason I question the stat about black graduates not being able to find jobs, something more has to be going on. What are the subject degrees of these graduates for example? Many of the increased number of degrees in Britain (and this is not colour defined, just an example) are in the arts and social sciences, subjects that are useless for many professional jobs in private industry.

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RE: Are WE racists? - 7/16/2006 5:23:07 PM

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Northern Gent
Had a look at some of the web sites - Gvt etc and there is as usual more questions than answers - some out of context points for you to ponder
1 -High levels in prison - it doen't say they were innocent (ok that was provocative). More valid is that an even higher proprtion are held on remand, this supports your argument but if those people then receive a fair trial and are not imprisoned does this not indicate a fair process which conflicts with the "rotten to the core" argument.
2 - It is mandatory to establish Race Relations Management Team - this is the institutions response, an ingrained racist institution would not do this - like 95% of the worlds prison systems...
3 - Pakastani and Bangladeshis are more likley to be unemployed than Caribbeans!! A conflict here as much of this relates to an unwillingness to move away from there neighbours and peaers to where the work is available and also to do with a language issue you can only employ non English Speakers for a certain proportion of jobs.
4 - Unattached males generally have poorer employement prospects than those with family commitments. Caribean men are less likely to be living with partner or children. Interesting one this one, is this a race link, a cultural link, or a statistical anomoly?
5 - Social class appears to be a bigger predeterminant in long term success - seems obvious - rich mummy and daddy = children can try less hard and still be up there in the pay stakes- anecdotal evidence for this would also stand up (a second cheap shot) anyone could have told them that.
6 - Hundus and Christians from Asian background are much more successful than Sikhs or Muslims - why does this have to be race why can it not be part of the religion or culture inprint that is the issue such that the culture or values of the ethnic minority conflict with the requirements of success of the host culture.
7 - During the riots in Bradford both sides were improverished and both thought the other were receiving preferential treatment.
Race and racism is too easy an excuse to role out for all failings.

Net summary / conclusion of the reports is that more data is required - not categorical proof of a "Cocktail of institutional racism"
There you go some spin on how the reports can be interpreted. I'm not as good at it as Jeremy Paxman but a reasoned attempt I feel.

PS on your profile I think you should go for a right wing sub....think of the fun punishments you could inflict when she disagrees with you ....... you need to think lateral and out of the box.........

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RE: Are WE racists? - 7/16/2006 5:51:48 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
Gent, I want a level playing field as well!
In the 1970's in Boston if you were a "minority" you "only" had to score a 35 on the Civil Service Exam to become a Police Officer or Firefighter!

Are you insinuating that preferential treatment is only used when Affirmative action is in place? Are you saying that the reason most italians have the great paying construction jobs in MA is because they're the only ones who can do it? Why do you think our current president is "the" president?

quote:

How is that "leveling the playing field?
Giving important jobs like that to people who can't pass tests?

Those tests are so easy my lil one should be able to take it with sufficient training, so why would you have a problem with putting people through school to be able to have the jobs that pay well to support their families just like you do yours? Did you cover your eyes when I posted my previous reply??? http://www.collarchat.com/tm.asp?m=465338&mpage=11&key=
You can remain ignorant, and use excuses to look down on people; just don't hide behind lame excuses for why you think people of color deserve less than you do.

quote:

They ended up having to send almost all of the "minority" Police Officers to North Eastern University for remedial reading and writing courses because they couldn't even fill out a proper Police report!

And what is your problem with that exactly?

quote:

What if you had a Police report that wasn't filled out correctly and were denied an insurance settlement for tens of thousands of dollars? Or worse!

It certainly wouldn't be the first time that ever happened, and not necessary to be black to make a mistake or be undertrained.

quote:

Or what about a "minority" Firefighter who couldn't pass an Emergency Medical Technician course and didn't know how to properly perform Cardio Pulmonary Resusitation on a dying victim?

Point them to me when you see this problem and I'll personally train them and relieve you of that burden, if that is your concern.

quote:

It used to be that if you were a Veteran you went to the top of the list for Firefighter or Police Officer as your service to the country and also to a large extent, your military training made you very suitable for those positions.
Are you starting to see how "Social Engineering" just doesn't work?
It's simple, if you want to get on the Fire or Police you need to STUDY the courses and for the examination

I don't disagreee with you there. I haven't a single doubt in my mind that given the opportunity, minorities would do exactly that. M

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(in reply to popeye1250)

RE: Are WE racists? - 7/16/2006 6:31:51 PM

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Blktall, as for going to school to learn how to take a test, you're supposed to have already learned that in high school.
In Boston, ANYONE could have gotten on the Police or Fire Dept's if they had passed the test!
I don't see what the problem was with the exception of a bunch of guilty white liberals in Massachusetts who live off trust funds.
I was passed over for a job on the Fire Dept but instead of complaining about it I went BACK into the military and now I'm retired and make a nice comfortable pension and live in Myrtle Beach, SC so keep paying your taxes because I have a good thing going here!
As for the Italians in Boston and construction jobs what do you think was going on?
Can you say "NUNZIO?"

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RE: Are WE racists? - 7/17/2006 12:11:55 AM

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Just when the board were breathing a sigh of relief because the thred was slipping down the board :-)

Destomaoc

Response to your original post:

1) No one is saying white = racist. You can't be reading this thread. Feel free to find an example on this thread where someone suggests that.

2) Britain does have a comparatively good record - and I've stated this. However, at the risk of repeating myself. If ethnic minorities are three times more likely to be homeless and blabk graduates are seven times less likely to find employment than whites educated to a similar standard then there is something wrong that needs addressing.

3) You seem to be saying because it is not as bad as the US in the 60s or South Africa it is ok? I can't agree with that.

4) There is an element of contradiction in your statement. You say it is only possibly racism but then say it could also be down to perception. Well, if black youths are perceived as being four times in need of being stopped and searched isn't that racism. Racism is perception, it is the perception of a race based on perception rather than reality.

5) To move forward in Britain, people have had to fight tooth and nail for everything. If it was left to the Conservatives in this country there wouldn't be any moving forward for anyone - even the white working class. British history tells us that the British establishment will do their utmost to preserve the status quo. Thus, if people on the left don't do their bit to try and bring about social justice it just won't happen - history shows us this.

6) Again, forget Brazil, Denmark wherever - I'm British - it is this country we can do something about. And, the stats shows that the white working class have a higher standard of living than black equivelants - it is all there in the links.

7) I take your point, it was a touch self-indulgent :-) and didn't really come out as I meant it. I meant it is better to have principles and something you believe in rather than live a life based on self-interest - and let's face it self-interest is the definition of Conservatism.

(in reply to popeye1250)

RE: Are WE racists? - 7/17/2006 1:33:42 AM

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline

NorthernGent.

2) If ethnic minorities are three times more likely to be homeless and blabk graduates are seven times less likely to find employment than whites educated to a similar standard then there is something wrong that needs addressing.

There has to be more going on here than meets the eye. If Britain has absorbed 600,000 east Europeans who came specifically for jobs and probably wouldn't stay without a job, why weren't these jobs being filled by ethnic minorities? My guess it has to do with an unwillingness to relocate amongst other reasons or dismissing the idea of doing particular jobs. etc. Immigrants, white or black are more willing to do jobs natives won't but that doesn't explain the high proportion of east Europeans that found professional jobs. There is a shortage of dentists for example for quite some time and east Europeans have been filling these jobs. An indication that home grown graduates are not taking an education in subjects where there are needs but concentrating on areas where there is already high competition. This could easily account for some of the imbalance.

What are the degrees that these graduates have? Are like degrees being compared to like degrees? Law for example. Even if you are white you have very little chance of getting a place in a chamber if you don't know the right people. Thatcher wanted reform but there were too many lawyers in Parliament against her on all sides of the political spectrum.

Again there is more going on here than racism and it needs looking at in detail, not with headline stats.

4) . You say it is only possibly racism but then say it could also be down to perception. Well, if black youths are perceived as being four times in need of being stopped and searched isn't that racism. Racism is perception, it is the perception of a race based on perception rather than reality.

Most black youth live in inner cities and white youths are pretty evenly spread throughout the country. One would therefore expect an imbalance here. Black people admit to a drug and gun problem amongst their youth. Many have accused the police of being racist for not tackling the issue and being willing to let black people live in fear. Others have accused the police of racial harrassment for doing something about it. Result: Police accused by both sides of racism while they are really between the devil and the deep blue sea. Though I accept there is some racist officers but I don't accept the concept of institutional racism.

5) To move forward in Britain, people have had to fight tooth and nail for everything. If it was left to the Conservatives in this country there wouldn't be any moving forward for anyone - even the white working class. British history tells us that the British establishment will do their utmost to preserve the status quo. Thus, if people on the left don't do their bit to try and bring about social justice it just won't happen - history shows us this.

The 1867 Reform act passed by the Conservatives gave some working men the vote for the first time.

6) Again, forget Brazil, Denmark wherever - I'm British - it is this country we can do something about. And, the stats shows that the white working class have a higher standard of living than black equivelants - it is all there in the links.

Refusal to relocate keeps people in depressed areas. Again, areas like Hackney and Tower Hamlets are often cited as deprived areas while being next to the richest and biggest job source in Britain and easiliy walkable.

To take a different line. Whites are spread evenly throughout the country and many would live near the greenfield sites where industry prefers to locate rather than inner cities which require more investment and have bad transport links. Once again the imbalance can be explained and again, the stats don't tell the full story.

Location, location, location. If ethnic minorities don't relocate they will remain in depressed areas. Governments have failed time and again to rejuvenate depressed inner city areas and it doesn't work without attracting businesses to invest in the areas. Many businesses won't locate in an area where the local politics is hostile for fear of rates being unacceptably high and with an unhelpful council.ie. Old Labour Party areas.

Relocation is also a problem for ethnic minorities because of their perception of whites so feel safer living in depressed areas rather than following capital. As I pointed out before, Indians and Chineese don't seem to have this problem of perception and have been brought up in an enterprising culture so appear to be more willing to follow the money out into the greenfield areas.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 7/17/2006 1:43:01 AM >

(in reply to NorthernGent)

RE: Are WE racists? - 7/17/2006 2:08:34 AM

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Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline

I know you don't like anecdotes but I can't find a stats source in English. I live in the Netherlands and there are many similar things going on as in Britain in regards to ethnic minorities.

One interesting fact I was told about, was that in the slave trade the Netherlands exported African slaves to the colonies in the Carribean and to Indonesia. After decolonisation etc some of the descendents of those African slaves settled in the Netherlands. The interesting thing is that those blacks from Indonesia are far more successful in Dutch society than those from the Carribean, the only difference is culture.

I live in a 90% ethnic minority area and come into contact with minorities from all over the world everyday and its not difficult to understand why some minorities are so much more successful than others. Most of the tradesmen I use or shops I go to are from the minorities and it is a certain group of minorities that have businesses and certain groups that don't but do hourly work and there is a certain group that hangs around on corners complaining they are subject to racism and these are even shunned by the other minorities. It proves nothing of course because this area is a microcosm but it is interesting to witness.

Also the council here is trying to regenerate the area and is renovating houses in the hope they will bring white middleclass people into the area who have money and who will use the businesses and services provided by the ethnic minorities. Sounds racist to a left winger doesn't it? But the local ethnic minority businesses love the idea and as do those people who want jobs. Those that stand on the corner complaining about racism of course see racism in this intitiative but my butcher doesn't see it that way and who says his business has increased by over 100% since the initiative started.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 7/17/2006 2:24:03 AM >

(in reply to NorthernGent)

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