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Why are sub men so "easy"? - 4/15/2014 11:01:43 AM

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In general, sub men come across as "easy." They are ready to give up their "surrender" pretty quickly.

Hell, a lot of it offer it up at the introduction level (in person and in email) rather than look for a connection first and determining if the woman is someone "worth" submitting to.

Why don't more sub men "cherish" their surrender/submission like some women traditionally "cherish" and hold into their virginity - being selective about the process and making sure it means something?

I don't want this to turn into a debate about whether or not women cherish virginity and what that means for gender roles, OR how MEN also cherish their virginity.

I have found that if a man is somewhat protective and selective of his submission rather than "shopping it around," it makes that submission all the more intriguing and interesting. It also assures me he is SELECTIVE and I want a man to want to submit to ME, not just "a femdom who happens to say yes." It also shows that surrender isn't just something he wants asap to get his rocks off - that it is a process of value that takes connection.

The best connections I have ever made are with men that gave no hint of their actual submission/surrender (no posturing, no rituals) until we were firmly at a place of mutual interest and I initiated the process - and it meant I had to seduce him, for lack of a better word.

Most sub men are just too easy - they are ready/eager/willing/and sadly sometimes desperate to give it up - even before they know anything about me. And that means I know they are approaching other women the same way.

Akasha

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RE: Why are sub men so "easy"? - 4/15/2014 11:34:51 AM

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Okay, I'm not a psychiatrist, or a psychologist, or a mind reader, and I don't even play one on TV. All I have are my own thoughts and ideas, and they run something like this:

How many dominant women are there compared to sub men? I think that sub men probably feel that if they wait too long, or play "hard to get" (figuratively speaking) they are going to lose out. I also think that a lot of men feel like the fewer limits they have, the better their chances are. Then once they make contact and the fact that they do have limits comes out they end up with a label of being fake and not a real sub.

In Hollywood it would be called a "cattle call". Dozens or hundreds of individuals clamoring for one role in a movie. Here the sub feels like he is probably just one of possibly dozens or hundreds competing for just one sub/slave position, so he feels like he has to be the most eager, most complying, most slavish of the whole bunch to be considered.

Add to that the adjectives used by many mistresses towards slaves, like the term "worthless", etc., and many sub men will get it in their minds that that is how they need to appear.

Again...just my own thoughts and ideas.

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RE: Why are sub men so "easy"? - 4/15/2014 11:46:26 AM

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To the OP: I guess it could be because some men look at submission from a physical perspective and not so much a psychological one. While some female subs may feel secure and joy submitting to their dominant. A man may automatically be looking to have some physical sensation satisfied first and believe that gratification is therefore submission (i.e. CBT, being flogged, etc). Submission has to be taught to some men. While I am sure there are men out there who cherish submitting to a woman- I feel they are very rare gems that need to be found. Look at it this way, society tells women and men how they should behave. Being submissive for some men may be deemed as a form of weakness. Thus having a negative connection. Re-education is probably needed.

Just my opinion about it. Great topic.

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RE: Why are sub men so "easy"? - 4/15/2014 11:48:39 AM

kdsub

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I think igor made some good points...I however think you need to go deeper to another level in the difference between men and women.

Evolution has made selectivity innate in the nature of the female. Their job it seems, as far as evolution goes, is to pick the best mate that will ensure the survival of her blood line.

Males on the other hand are programmed, by evolution, to try and mate with as many females as possible to pass on their blood line.

This means men must be the aggressors and always be direct in what they want... Otherwise they will not act like females even when trying to be submissive.

Butch

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RE: Why are sub men so "easy"? - 4/15/2014 11:53:42 AM

Lec

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Probably there's a lot of ratios / simple maths behind it, like igor2003 said. Another reason is that we sometimes simply have no clue how to approach a femdom and what attracts them. So we play according to some script. Dommes are also a bit guilty, especially online, because in their profile they often require rituals, deference, etc, from the very beginning.

I had some mistakes like that in the past. Currently, I am evolving towards a more difficult submissive, with more self-respect. If I still don't find my happiness, I might turn completely vanilla.
Had already some "relationships" online... there was no money involved... but I generally wasn't very satisfied. Sometimes I was, but in most of the cases not.

But I am still into dominant women. Is any dominant woman willing to be in a relationship with vanilla guy? I would accept even being owned, and involved in some kink, as long as she recognizes that as vanilla-ish guy, my needs are a bit different. I don't desire mistreatment, degradation, humiliation, or lots of pain. The only thing I desire is to be loved and accepted as submissive man. I would give my love and service to such a woman, and I would accept even some pain. I love surrender and being owned and helpless. It's just that I prefer my owner to be generally a nice and caring dominant lady and not cruel bitch. ;) One "good boy" could make me way more submissive than any humiliation or insult.

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RE: Why are sub men so "easy"? - 4/15/2014 12:00:49 PM

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In my opinion and from experience, it seems many 'sub males' watch way too much BDSM porn. What they seek is the leather clad, spike heeled, breasts almost falling out of the corset Domme.

Most of them think (with the small head) it's all about sexually serving their Mistress. It seems most don't realize there needs to be a mental connection and attraction on both sides.

I've found that when they realize there is more to their devotion of the Mistress and sexual service is only a very small part (in my case, not at all) interest wanes quickly.

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RE: Why are sub men so "easy"? - 4/15/2014 12:09:06 PM

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This is quite interesting and rather true.
I don't know why submitting is much easier for them than for me. They don't seem to need the person to be more "special" than normal. It's like, they do not require any emotional connection to submit, but I do.

Something I would explore more about, love to hear more from sub men on how they process their submission in their heads.

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RE: Why are sub men so "easy"? - 4/15/2014 12:15:34 PM

NiceButMeanGirl

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Could it be because there are way more sub men than there are Domme women and the sub men are afraid, if they wait too long, they will get left behind and not find a Domme of their own? I can see where, if the pickin's are slim compared to the hordes of sub men out there, they would want to get right in there early. Or, I could be all wrong.

NBMG

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RE: Why are sub men so "easy"? - 4/15/2014 12:18:10 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I think igor made some good points...I however think you need to go deeper to another level in the difference between men and women.

Evolution has made selectivity innate in the nature of the female. Their job it seems, as far as evolution goes, is to pick the best mate that will ensure the survival of her blood line.

Males on the other hand are programmed, by evolution, to try and mate with as many females as possible to pass on their blood line.

This means men must be the aggressors and always be direct in what they want... Otherwise they will not act like females even when trying to be submissive.

Butch

Evolutionary psychology isn't very convincing - we can't really know what humans have been 'programmed' to do by evolution, since we can't test it in a controlled environment, and evolution can't exactly 'program' people to do anything, or pick an optimal path - it just means traits likely to lead to the propagation of the next generation are more likely to be successful. Strict monogamy, with males who were incredibly selective about their mates, or the inverse would be similarly possible, given different species and cultures - if you have journal access, there's a fascinating article about it here (http://www.cell.com/trends/ecology-evolution/abstract/S0169-5347(09)00112-8?_returnURL=http%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0169534709001128%3Fshowall%3Dtrue?_returnURL=http%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0169534709001128%3Fshowall%3Dtrue).

There's also the importance of culture in shaping our minds and upbringing - I'm always suspicious when I encounter evopsych 'just so' stories that seem to justify sexist (and Eurocentric) notions of 'men can't help but be inclined to promiscuity, women are naturally defensive of their virginity' ... people (not accusing you in particular kdsub, but this is more of a general social/scientific trend) tend to see what they want.

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RE: Why are sub men so "easy"? - 4/15/2014 12:18:38 PM

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But I feel like there are way more sub females than dominant males too. At least around my area, sooo many sub men, so few dominants.

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RE: Why are sub men so "easy"? - 4/15/2014 12:47:13 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

In general, sub men come across as "easy." They are ready to give up their "surrender" pretty quickly.

Hell, a lot of it offer it up at the introduction level (in person and in email) rather than look for a connection first and determining if the woman is someone "worth" submitting to.

Why don't more sub men "cherish" their surrender/submission like some women traditionally "cherish" and hold into their virginity - being selective about the process and making sure it means something?

Akasha

Personally, I feel the exact same way about women.

BadOne

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RE: Why are sub men so "easy"? - 4/15/2014 12:48:32 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SailingBum
Personally, I feel the exact same way about women.
BadOne

You must have mad skillz to entice women to easily submit to you.

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RE: Why are sub men so "easy"? - 4/15/2014 1:20:38 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

In general, sub men come across as "easy." They are ready to give up their "surrender" pretty quickly.

Hell, a lot of it offer it up at the introduction level (in person and in email) rather than look for a connection first and determining if the woman is someone "worth" submitting to.

Why don't more sub men "cherish" their surrender/submission like some women traditionally "cherish" and hold into their virginity - being selective about the process and making sure it means something?

I have found that if a man is somewhat protective and selective of his submission rather than "shopping it around," it makes that submission all the more intriguing and interesting. It also assures me he is SELECTIVE and I want a man to want to submit to ME, not just "a femdom who happens to say yes." It also shows that surrender isn't just something he wants asap to get his rocks off - that it is a process of value that takes connection.

The best connections I have ever made are with men that gave no hint of their actual submission/surrender (no posturing, no rituals) until we were firmly at a place of mutual interest and I initiated the process - and it meant I had to seduce him, for lack of a better word.

Most sub men are just too easy - they are ready/eager/willing/and sadly sometimes desperate to give it up - even before they know anything about me. And that means I know they are approaching other women the same way.

Akasha

I think those traits grow with confidence and maturity. I took a break from the scene for a few years but this time around its different. I no longer wanted to fritter around with one hour fixes and wanted someone to build up a rapport with in a long term relationship. And it does cherish that fact that as am no longer anyone's sub I am hers and want her and everyone else to know that.

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RE: Why are sub men so "easy"? - 4/15/2014 1:28:02 PM

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I'd imagine it's supply and demand. They're afraid if they don't agree, you will move right along.

With that said, I'm not a game player. I determined compatibility and once done, had no reason to pretend to be coy. I own my own sexuality and decide for myself if I want to have sex with someone else or not.

So someone like the op or SailingBum wouldn't interest me in the least.

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RE: Why are sub men so "easy"? - 4/15/2014 2:05:02 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

ORIGINAL: SailingBum
Personally, I feel the exact same way about women.
BadOne

You must have mad skillz to entice women to easily submit to you.

Not mad skillz, BAD skillz.

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RE: Why are sub men so "easy"? - 4/15/2014 2:16:48 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

I'd imagine it's supply and demand. They're afraid if they don't agree, you will move right along.

With that said, I'm not a game player. I determined compatibility and once done, had no reason to pretend to be coy. I own my own sexuality and decide for myself if I want to have sex with someone else or not.

So someone like the op or SailingBum wouldn't interest me in the least.

A lot of people have said supply and demand or the numbers issue is a reason. Still, is that enough reason a man would be so desperate in his approach? Or, does that say that sub men are willing to "settle" readily and therefore cut corners on their selection process out of sheer desperation? That would be horrible.

Others have said porn. Yes, to some degree, it's bad learning. But a lot of men still know better and have read, seen, heard, been told and still present themselves as a caricature of submission, or think that blatant acts of submission (over doing it in their posturing, demeanor) will turn femdom heads (toward them, not away with eyes rolling). And in most cases it's just not true.

Femdoms state again and again -- they want a relationship first, the dynamic second - and even those that are into play only or topping/bottoming still seek connection before dynamic.

I think a problem is that some sub men get genuine pleasure in their posturing process even though it does not work. It's still gratifying to them on some level to present themselves as meek and available and ready to go - even if it fails. Or, in their mind, the woman they seek WOULD want that. So many people say it's a numbers game, but in reality men that posture so meekly or are "ready to give it up" are alienating more women than they are attracting.

The women they do attract are probably predators -- in a sense of pros seeking clients, or manipulators seeking someone to use. I don't mean "predator" in a totally horrifically negative way - I should say "opportunists" - the women that know what these men want because they advertise it so blatantly. I hate to use a bad "virginity" example again, but I think subs that "give it up" so easily end up not keeping the interest of the women that DO take them up on it - because these women want what they want and the men are disposable, because there's another guy eager to "give it up" too.

Sub men I think would do much better if they protected their willingness to submit and made it a mysterious onion to be peeled - and only for a woman that meant something to him.

Akasha

< Message edited by AAkasha -- 4/15/2014 2:17:45 PM >

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RE: Why are sub men so "easy"? - 4/15/2014 2:27:18 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ElleEArr

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I think igor made some good points...I however think you need to go deeper to another level in the difference between men and women.

Evolution has made selectivity innate in the nature of the female. Their job it seems, as far as evolution goes, is to pick the best mate that will ensure the survival of her blood line.

Males on the other hand are programmed, by evolution, to try and mate with as many females as possible to pass on their blood line.

This means men must be the aggressors and always be direct in what they want... Otherwise they will not act like females even when trying to be submissive.

Butch

Evolutionary psychology isn't very convincing - we can't really know what humans have been 'programmed' to do by evolution, since we can't test it in a controlled environment, and evolution can't exactly 'program' people to do anything, or pick an optimal path - it just means traits likely to lead to the propagation of the next generation are more likely to be successful. Strict monogamy, with males who were incredibly selective about their mates, or the inverse would be similarly possible, given different species and cultures - if you have journal access, there's a fascinating article about it here (http://www.cell.com/trends/ecology-evolution/abstract/S0169-5347(09)00112-8?_returnURL=http%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0169534709001128%3Fshowall%3Dtrue?_returnURL=http%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0169534709001128%3Fshowall%3Dtrue).

There's also the importance of culture in shaping our minds and upbringing - I'm always suspicious when I encounter evopsych 'just so' stories that seem to justify sexist (and Eurocentric) notions of 'men can't help but be inclined to promiscuity, women are naturally defensive of their virginity' ... people (not accusing you in particular kdsub, but this is more of a general social/scientific trend) tend to see what they want.

I agree that people tend to see what they want, or see as far as their life allows them to see. But I would not discard Evopsych so quickly, nature or evolution still has it hands on us people. We can not bend all things to our will. Combining society, people, nature etc. etc. is very complex, but alle views we must consider as part of the whole picture. In other words I am not disagreeing, but in my experience on the matter there is a tendency to rule out evolution to fast - seing as this thread our acts, words and actions really is evolution. I do not believe that man (or woman), science, religion etc. can see, feel or comprehend much on a larger scale. Okay that was a bit farfetched, all I wanted to say was I think we all are part of evolution and we can not severe our current lives and society completely from the past.

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RE: Why are sub men so "easy"? - 4/15/2014 2:53:26 PM

kdsub

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Just me... no degree... but I don't believe we are much different than pack animals when it comes to society and especially emotions and the sex drive.

All throughout the animal kingdom there is at least a common trait. One sex or the other is the aggressor in trying to mate and the other is the selective one trying to find the one with the best attributes to mate with. In the human race I believe it is quite clear studies or not. The male is most often the aggressor and the female the selective one looking for her best mate.

I do believe this ties into the subject at hand nicely. A male submissive gets the urge...sees a potential mate...and directly approaches her... or him... The female however is most often the one approached by multiple males. She compares the males to her wants and needs then picks the one she thinks most suited for her.

I know I am generalizing and there are of course exceptions but on the whole I believe this to match the reality.

I think this also explains why men are more promiscuous and are much more likely to participate in casual sex than women.

Butch

_____________________________

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to ElleEArr)

RE: Why are sub men so "easy"? - 4/15/2014 4:05:21 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha
In general, sub men come across as "easy." They are ready to give up their "surrender" pretty quickly.

I don't think this is sub-specific. More man-on-internet specific. Dom men can be just as easy. I've never understood the "Kneel Bitch" emails. I have no idea if I want that woman to be alone in the same room with me, kneeling or otherwise. And I sure as hell don't know if I like her enough to call her a bitch.

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RE: Why are sub men so "easy"? - 4/15/2014 4:37:03 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha
In general, sub men come across as "easy." They are ready to give up their "surrender" pretty quickly.

I don't think this is sub-specific. More man-on-internet specific. Dom men can be just as easy. I've never understood the "Kneel Bitch" emails. I have no idea if I want that woman to be alone in the same room with me, kneeling or otherwise. And I sure as hell don't know if I like her enough to call her a bitch.

I'm talking about men in real life at bdsm parties, clubs as well. What I would consider a hugely successful and intriguing man is after having a conversation with him casually while getting a drink I had no idea if he was dominant or submissive. Never happened -- subs were eager to demonstrate that they are willing to immediately follow orders or are super clingy-attentive, or worse offenders than that ("May I kiss your feet" types at clubs).

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