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RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions - 5/31/2014 4:11:50 PM

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quote:

This statement has me a little confused. Is he suggesting that the muslims have not won any prizes because they are religious and the Jews have because they aren't?

No, it suggests that the Muslim religious culture has halted the scientific activity for 900 years. The Jews have an orthodox branch but they also have a very liberal culture that has kept them active in the scientific enterprise.

quote:

Unless they are somehow stopping other scientists from discovering new things it really doesn't matter if they agree with them or not. But if you think it's worth losing sleep over, go right ahead.

You only need to look back at the Republican presidential debates to lose a lot of sleep. For the most part the Republicans were anti science or afraid to let their electors know they had some knowledge of science.

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RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions - 5/31/2014 4:46:54 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

You did not view the entire video or you are being disingenuously selective in your report. Dr. Tyson goes on to say the entire Islamic enterprise in science collapsed in the 12th Century following the influence of al Ghazali who proclaimed that mathematics was the work of the devil.

Oh, I see. So Islam wasn't a religion before then. Got it now.

K.

You are making shit up. Christianity was a religion before the Reformation so obviously orthodoxy changes or branches. The scientific enterprise of Bagdad was influenced negatively by al Ghazali. Only Kirata could twist Tyson's words so idiotically.

Actually, Kirata is the only one here who thinks independently of the leftist Kool Aid handed down to you by your politically correct masters. You people are so funny. You'd be the first ones to put Galileo in jail for being a nutsackers.

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RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions - 5/31/2014 4:49:49 PM

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That is a link to a paper some guy wrote. Your claim was that K believes prayer can make ice pretty and unless you can show me a link where he claims that I will have to assume you are lying again.

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RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions - 5/31/2014 4:50:46 PM

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[/quote]
You only need to look back at the Republican presidential debates to lose a lot of sleep. For the most part the Republicans were anti science or afraid to let their electors know they had some knowledge of science.
[/quote]

This is so laughable. The funniest thing is that you actually believe it and use it to justify your hate. You drip hate with every breath. You make people into groups and deem them either good or bad according to what your masters tell you to believe now.

(in reply to vincentML)

RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions - 5/31/2014 4:57:58 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

This statement has me a little confused. Is he suggesting that the muslims have not won any prizes because they are religious and the Jews have because they aren't?

No, it suggests that the Muslim religious culture has halted the scientific activity for 900 years. The Jews have an orthodox branch but they also have a very liberal culture that has kept them active in the scientific enterprise.

I see, so it's not all religions, just certain ones.

quote:

quote:

Unless they are somehow stopping other scientists from discovering new things it really doesn't matter if they agree with them or not. But if you think it's worth losing sleep over, go right ahead.

You only need to look back at the Republican presidential debates to lose a lot of sleep. For the most part the Republicans were anti science or afraid to let their electors know they had some knowledge of science.

We were talking about religions, not republicans. You do know the difference, right?

_____________________________

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RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions - 5/31/2014 5:05:16 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

This statement has me a little confused. Is he suggesting that the muslims have not won any prizes because they are religious and the Jews have because they aren't?

No, it suggests that the Muslim religious culture has halted the scientific activity for 900 years. The Jews have an orthodox branch but they also have a very liberal culture that has kept them active in the scientific enterprise.

I see, so it's not all religions, just certain ones.

quote:

quote:

Unless they are somehow stopping other scientists from discovering new things it really doesn't matter if they agree with them or not. But if you think it's worth losing sleep over, go right ahead.

You only need to look back at the Republican presidential debates to lose a lot of sleep. For the most part the Republicans were anti science or afraid to let their electors know they had some knowledge of science.

We were talking about religions, not republicans. You do know the difference, right?

No they can't see past what their politically correct masters tell them to believe.

(in reply to thishereboi)

RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions - 5/31/2014 5:14:25 PM

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quote:

Before al Ghazali it did not discourage learning, at least in Baghdad. As Tyson points out between 800 and 1100 CE in Baghdad was one of the great periods of academic achievement in man's history. Most of the visible stars were named and algebraic math was developed amongst other achievements.

Then al Ghazali came along and he declared that education, and specifically mathematics, was the work of the devil. At which point the Islamic world turned in upon itself and has functionally stagnated.

Yep. It fits far better for me that it's the *authoritarian* tendency in religions that is the real culprit here. That is, the belief that we should just accept the views of a lot of fat, greedy, privileged old wankers just because said fat, greedy, privileged old wankers have decreed that this is The Truth, and have done so for hundreds of years. So, knowledge and learning is fine, just so long as it doesn't impinge on the power and prestige of these pointless parasites. It's *this*, more specifically, that gets in the way of progress.

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RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions - 5/31/2014 5:25:42 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

Yep. It fits far better for me that it's the *authoritarian* tendency in religions that is the real culprit here.

As opposed to...say....the authoritarian tendency of government, or any other institution that garners enough power that it can affect government?

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RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions - 5/31/2014 5:41:59 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

So I dont agree with the idea that the whole of religion is eroding scientific progress,

If you would view the video you would find that no such claim is made. Tyson is referring to biblical fundamentalists.

Lets face it, if the fundamentalists have their way, sex would be for procreation only, in the missionary position, wearing biohazard suit with only the genitals exposed.

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RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions - 5/31/2014 5:42:02 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Yep. It fits far better for me that it's the *authoritarian* tendency in religions that is the real culprit here.

As opposed to...say....the authoritarian tendency of government, or any other institution that garners enough power that it can affect government?

Nope, not as opposed to that, because such governments have used many of the same 'tools'. None of them has used them so successfully and for so long as have some of the world's religions, however.

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RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions - 5/31/2014 5:49:44 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

That is a link to a paper some guy wrote. Your claim was that K believes prayer can make ice pretty and unless you can show me a link where he claims that I will have to assume you are lying again.

Either you can't read or you are being intentionally obtuse. Which is it?

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RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions - 5/31/2014 5:51:03 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

quote:

You only need to look back at the Republican presidential debates to lose a lot of sleep. For the most part the Republicans were anti science or afraid to let their electors know they had some knowledge of science.

This is so laughable. The funniest thing is that you actually believe it and use it to justify your hate. You drip hate with every breath. You make people into groups and deem them either good or bad according to what your masters tell you to believe now.

So when a question is asked at the debate and every single candidate denies the existence of climate change what is that?

(in reply to HunterCA)

RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions - 5/31/2014 6:35:11 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

quote:

You only need to look back at the Republican presidential debates to lose a lot of sleep. For the most part the Republicans were anti science or afraid to let their electors know they had some knowledge of science.

This is so laughable. The funniest thing is that you actually believe it and use it to justify your hate. You drip hate with every breath. You make people into groups and deem them either good or bad according to what your masters tell you to believe now.

So when a question is asked at the debate and every single candidate denies the existence of climate change what is that?

I don't think you understand what they said. Which is typical of a leftist. You only understand what you're told to understand. Now it's become politically correct dogma that nutsackers are anti-science. When actually, what they are asking is for science to stand up and produce one model that can be verified by an outside source that will show they understand enough about the systems they are dealing with to be considered worth reorganizing total world wide society on the proof shown in that model. Which they can't do. As a matter of fact....yes fact....if you take all of the computer models that were projecting climate change and plot them alongside the actual climate as it existed it becomes very clear that the climate change models don't know enough to find their ass with two hands. But, I'm laying odds in your infinite science wisdom you've never seen those superimposed graphs and that you're just talking out of your ass as most Kool Aid drinking liberals do.

Let me give you this science. As I read it in a scientific journal some dozen years ago I'll have to paraphrase and not be able to give you a link. The computer industry makes chips by adding chemicals into a drum like container and the putting a specific heat and a specific pressure on the specific chemical brew. Doing all of that in a closed system they only succeed in the process 75% of the time. Now, you expect that the "Scientists" looking at global climate change can determine in an open system, as opposed to a closed system, of global proportions, as oppressed to a container in a room, with random chemical variants, as opposed to a specific chemical stew, with uncertain temperature and pressure what is going to happen with the climate 100 years from now. And, I gotta tell you, you're an idiot and you've probably never taken a thermodynamics class on a graduate level in your life. So please, don't tell me who doesn't understand science.

(in reply to DomKen)

RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions - 5/31/2014 6:37:40 PM

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FR

Slow night at this end, so I watched the video. Some reactions:

-- Opening with 9/11 was digressive and gratuitous. I can't help wondering why the speaker chose to focus so much of his limited time on that. Perhaps a dog whistle saying "Islam = terrorism"?

-- Both the YouTube video and the thread seem misnamed.

-- It was frustrating, as a one-time history major, to watch a non-historian be so sloppy with the discipline. He said nothing about why the scientific boom began when it did, which is at least as important as why it ended. And pinning a whole cultural collapse on a single scholar requires far more evidence and explanation than the speaker gave. Among other things, it raises the question of why folks were so receptive to his ideas at that point.

-- Science has obviously progressed since 1100. When? Where? How? What intellectual infrastructure made that possible?

-- He stressed the number of Jewish Nobel laureates but made no effort to explore what about Judaism fosters such intellectual achievement.

-- He completely ignored the Western Hemisphere until he got to that billboard. And seriously, summing up a whole culture as complex and contradictory as the modern U.S. with a single ad? (That reminds me: We used to have a poster whose sigfile said that the world would be 1,500 years ahead of where it is now had the church not slowed things down. I raised the question of whether Native Americans should then have been 1,500 years ahead of the Europeans at contact. Never got an answer to that one.)

-- He tossed out the 85/15 National Academy stat at then end with no context or explanation of its importance. Another dog whistle? "God vs. Science" this time?

-- No time for questions? That was handy, wasn't it?

Overall, I was far from impressed. Rather than making any well-thought points, he struck me as providing intellectual-sounding cover for folks who already agreed with him. I'm amazed that any thoughtful person is taking this half-baked blather seriously.

< Message edited by dcnovice -- 5/31/2014 6:42:37 PM >

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RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions - 5/31/2014 6:48:26 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

That is a link to a paper some guy wrote. Your claim was that K believes prayer can make ice pretty and unless you can show me a link where he claims that I will have to assume you are lying again.

Either you can't read or you are being intentionally obtuse. Which is it?

It's the same problem as always, Ken. For some reason you forget that people can read things for themselves and detect the differences between what you claimed and what the person or link actually said.

I'm surprised you haven't caught onto the trick yet.

K.

(in reply to DomKen)

RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions - 5/31/2014 7:02:40 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

quote:

You only need to look back at the Republican presidential debates to lose a lot of sleep. For the most part the Republicans were anti science or afraid to let their electors know they had some knowledge of science.

This is so laughable. The funniest thing is that you actually believe it and use it to justify your hate. You drip hate with every breath. You make people into groups and deem them either good or bad according to what your masters tell you to believe now.

So when a question is asked at the debate and every single candidate denies the existence of climate change what is that?

Maybe those candidates understand the problems with your sudoscience that you do not, for instance as described in layman terms here: http://www.globalwarmingclassroom.info/Lesson1_graphs.htm and don't want to invest trillions of dollars until some of the problems with the science are settled.

I know your Kool Aid serving masters don't want you to think there might be a problem with the science, but you should look at other perspectives than just drinking Kool Aid.

For instance did you know that the CBO says that one American dies for every 15 million dollars the government spends. I'll give you an example, I was running a county wide water agency. We'd been very thrifty and saved up several million dollars in order to replace some water pipelines in a town that had been installed many years previously and were undersized. Just as we were about to bid the project the EPA came out with new water treatment plant specifications. The water treatment plant for that town suddenly didn't meet EPA regulations even though nobody was getting sick from the water. I drank it and I'm trained in science and believe to this day the water it produced was fine for human consumption. Well, since the EPA mandated we used our hard saved dollars to upgrade the treatment plant to meet federal regulations instead of replace the inadequate water pipes. Three days after the new water plant went into operations the town's hotel burned to the ground and three people died horrifically in the fire because the pipelines couldn't deliver enough water to the fire department to put the fire out.

So, you're saying, with all of the problems that are discussed in that link I've provided you want the federal government to dictate/mandate trillions of dollars to fight global warming and let the bumpkins in the rural hotels just die because it's your political priority. That's a very sick attitude my friend and you should examine it.

Maybe, Ken, as opposed to not understanding science, as your Kool Aid serve ring masters wants you to believe, they understood the problems with the science and realized the even if the US went totally dark now, which will kill a lot of us, that China and India are bringing one new coal fired power plant on line about every ten days. So, what ever we spend here, and no matter how many people we kill here with that spending, it won't make a pimple on your ass difference anywhere and so rather than stand up and do a Nazi salute like you do to your political masters they demurred until a real understanding can be reached.

< Message edited by HunterCA -- 5/31/2014 7:16:59 PM >

(in reply to DomKen)

RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions - 5/31/2014 7:13:19 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Fun reading, that thread. Too bad I didn't have the shovel graphic back then.

Too bad you don't learn from your mistakes.

Do you or do you not believe prayer makes ice pretty?

I read the link to the post, and the following conversation...

it looked to me like it was posted as a devils advocate type post to me, funny how certain people here, assume because one takes the other side of a discussion purely for the purpose of discussion, its proof they BELEIVE IN IT

not much of a DEBATE or discussion when everyone just nods their head and says "yeahh UNHUH that's right"
would make this a PRETTY BORING FORUM HUH?

its really SAD that some people have to take what should be just plain old OPEN DEBATE and turn it into some kinda NAME CALLING THING

can't count the number of times that's been done to me here, I actually just LIKE TO ARGUE, it occasionally lets me see things differently...

here's another SAD thing, so many here have an AGENDA to push, and somehow think they'll win converts by calling them STUPID AN SUCH

if one makes a logical and solid argument it should stand for itself and need no NAME CALLING to accompany it

Too bad you can't make a cogent argument. Please for the love of pete try to develop at least a little bit of a brain. You're a fucking embarrassment to the whole species.

BTW as you've been told before caps does not improve your argument at all.

ohhhh there's a SURPRIZE, you called me stupid!

WOW you WIN!

(in reply to DomKen)

RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions - 5/31/2014 7:21:18 PM

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Oh and Ken, the next time you want to discuss science, take a class first. I suggest a lot of physics, a lot of chemistry and some environmental science classes. Ya, I know they're hard. I had to sit through them and demonstrate minimum competency and I would have rather been chasing girls. But, isn't it embarrassing to leave your bare ass wagging out for everyone to see because of your ignorance?

(in reply to BitYakin)

RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions - 5/31/2014 7:44:19 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

quote:

You only need to look back at the Republican presidential debates to lose a lot of sleep. For the most part the Republicans were anti science or afraid to let their electors know they had some knowledge of science.

This is so laughable. The funniest thing is that you actually believe it and use it to justify your hate. You drip hate with every breath. You make people into groups and deem them either good or bad according to what your masters tell you to believe now.

So when a question is asked at the debate and every single candidate denies the existence of climate change what is that?

Oh and Ken, I don't know why I'm spending so much time with a pimple on my ass, but you seem to have pissed me off with your ignorance.

I remember one environmental science class I sat through. The final exam had one question for which we had two hours. Most of the class did not finish the problem so the curve was low, thank god for me.

The question was to write the equation from the sun through the sewer treatment plant. You know....oh maybe you don't...the sun shines on the earth, the plants take sunlight and soil and make carbohydrates, the cow takes the carbohydrates and makes protein, the human takes the protein, lives and excretes which goes to the treatment plant and the treatment plant then turns all the icky stuff back into basically soil, air and energy as existed when the sun shined on the land before the plants began to organize the chemicals.

I tell you what Ken, at the end of two hours I had ten pages of math, physics, chemistry, biology and other what not and I wasn't even close to being done. Again, thank god for the curve. So, Ken, in your intimate science wisdom, you provide me one page of those calculations and I'll accept you're not a complete science illiterate drone of the Kool Aid drinking crowd and admit it in public here. Now, understand Ken, that test was 30 years ago and the science has grown a whole heck of a lot since then. I'll not ask you to be up on current science, merely 30 years ago science. If you can do that out of your own head without googling something I'll apologize to you here. If you can't you'll admit you're nothing but a ass licking suck up in the Kool Aid drinking ignorance crowd.

Or I'll give you a second outlet. Currently my sewer treatment plant discharge is being affected by new regulations from the EPA regarding ammonia and muscles. You give me the biology of ammonia and muscles, along with PH considerations for the chemistry in the aquatic environment. You do it from the top of your head without recourse to google and we have the same deal.

Deal?

< Message edited by HunterCA -- 5/31/2014 8:02:31 PM >

(in reply to DomKen)

RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions - 5/31/2014 8:12:07 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

No, it suggests that the Muslim religious culture has halted the scientific activity for 900 years.

Nonsense. Without the Persian Muslims, the middle ages would have completed its destruction of classical knowledge.

(in reply to vincentML)

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