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RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions - 6/1/2014 11:57:59 AM

Musicmystery

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Well, as I already noted previously, you're wrong about science in the Muslim world. It flourished.

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RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions - 6/1/2014 12:13:59 PM

vincentML

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Well, as I already noted previously, you're wrong about science in the Muslim world. It flourished.

Beyond the 11th C? I don't think so.

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RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions - 6/1/2014 12:17:08 PM

Musicmystery

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then just what 900 years are you talking about? because you just jumped to the Renaissance a couple posts ago.

The Golden Age of Islamic Science flourished up to 1258, when the Mongols invaded.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 6/1/2014 12:18:28 PM >

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RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions - 6/1/2014 12:21:52 PM

vincentML

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

then just what 900 years are you talking about? because you just jumped to the Renaissance a couple posts ago.

The Golden Age of Islamic Science flourished up to 1258, when the Mongols invaded.

Okay. Not the 11th C but the 13th C. Not 900 years; but 700 years. My bad.

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RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions - 6/1/2014 12:27:51 PM

Musicmystery

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Later, in the 13th century, both Africa and India became great centers of Islamic civilization and soon thereafter Muslim kingdoms were established in the Malay-Indonesian world while Chinese Muslims flourished throughout China. Turkey as well.

Islamic History after the Mongol Invasion

The Mongols devastated the eastern lands of Islam and ruled from the Sinai Desert to India for a century. But they soon converted to Islam and became known as the Il-Khanids. They were in turn succeeded by Timur and his descendants who made Samarqand their capital and ruled from 1369 to 1500. The sudden rise of Timur delayed the formation and expansion of the Ottoman empire but soon the Ottomans became the dominant power in the Islamic world.

From humble origins the Turks rose to dominate over the whole of Anatolia and even parts of Europe. In 1453 Mehmet the Conqueror captured Constantinople and put an end to the Byzantine empire. The Ottomans conquered much of eastern Europe and nearly the whole of the Arab world, only Morocco and Mauritania in the West and Yemen, Hadramaut and parts of the Arabian peninsula remaining beyond their control. They reached their zenith of power with Suleyman the Magnificent whose armies reached Hungary and Austria. From the 17th century onward with the rise of Western European powers and later Russia, the power of the Ottomans began to wane. But they nevertheless remained a force to be reckoned with until the First World War when they were defeated by the Western nations. Soon thereafter Kamal Ataturk gained power in Turkey and abolished the six centuries of rule of the Ottomans in 1924. While the Ottomans were concerned mostly with the western front of their empire, to the east in Persia a new dynasty called the Safavids came to power in 1502. The Safavids established a powerful state of their own which flourished for over two centuries and became known for the flowering of the arts. Their capital, Isfahan, became one of the most beautiful cities with its blue tiled mosques and exquisite houses. The Afghan invasion of 1736 put an end to Safavid rule and prepared the independence of Afghanistan which occurred formally in the 19th century. Persia itself fell into turmoil until Nader Shah, the last Oriental conqueror, reunited the country and even conquered India. But the rule of the dynasty established by him was short-lived. The Zand dynasty soon took over to be overthrown by the Qajars in 1779 who made Tehran their capital and ruled until 1921 when they were in turn replaced by the Pahlavis.

As for India, Islam entered into the land east of the Indus River peacefully. Gradually Muslims gained political power beginning in the early 13th century. But this period which marked the expansion of both Islam and Islamic culture came to an end with the conquest of much of India in 1526 by Babur, one of the Timurid princes. He established the powerful Mogul empire which produced such famous rulers as Akbar, Jahangir, and Shah Jahan and which lasted, despite the gradual rise of British power in India, until 1857 when it was officially abolished. Farther east in the Malay world, Islam began to spread in the 12th century in northern Sumatra and soon Muslim kingdoms were established in Java, Sumatra and mainland Malaysia. Despite the colonization of the Malay world, Islam spread in that area covering present day Indonesia, Malaysia, the southern Philippines and southern Thailand, and is still continuing in islands farther east.

As far as Africa is concerned, Islam entered into East Africa at the very beginning of the Islamic period but remained confined to the coast for some time, only the Sudan and Somali land becoming gradually both Arabized and Islamized. West Africa felt the presence of Islam through North African traders who traveled with their camel caravans south of the Sahara. By the 14th century there were already Muslim sultanates in such areas as Mali, and Timbuctu in West Africa and Harar in East Africa had become seats of Islamic learning. Gradually Islam penetrated both inland and southward. There also appeared major charismatic figures who inspired intense resistance against European domination. The process of the Islamization of Africa did not cease during the colonial period and continues even today with the result that most Africans are now Muslims caring on a tradition which has had practically as long a history in certain areas of sub-Saharan Africa as Islam itself.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 6/1/2014 12:29:40 PM >

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RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions - 6/1/2014 12:33:19 PM

Musicmystery

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Now, if you want to argue for a decline in Islamic sciences starting in the 17th century, that argument can be made, due to a focus on turning to traditional sciences and abandoning their former embrace of experimental science.

http://books.google.com/books?id=Sf6HxVjOLPsC&pg=PA334&lpg=PA334&dq=islamic+science+since+the+mongol+invasion&source=bl&ots=0vlJwxvqZd&sig=Z5CAhwyvMQjTCl_VEWthlwr--n0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=QH-LU8-VF4XfsASt_4LoDQ&ved=0CHAQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=islamic%20science%20since%20the%20mongol%20invasion&f=false

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RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions - 6/1/2014 1:23:41 PM

thishereboi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

That is a link to a paper some guy wrote. Your claim was that K believes prayer can make ice pretty and unless you can show me a link where he claims that I will have to assume you are lying again.

Either you can't read or you are being intentionally obtuse. Which is it?

Just waiting for you to back up that claim you made. So did you find the link where he said that or are you going to finally admit you were lying again?

Dumbass liar
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=3670804
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=3673726
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=3673751
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=3674249
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=3675458

So you read the thread and never found any posts where Kirata supported the nonsensical concept at all? Why do you lie?

what am I lying about, I asked you for a fucking link showing where he said he believed prayer could make ice pretty. So far all you have done is give me links where he has tried to explain an experiment to you. It wasn't his experiment and although he did originally link it, I can't find any post where he says he believes it. Now it's very possible that that post is out there somewhere and he might even pop in at some point and clear it up. But based on your history, I am not going to hold my breath.

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RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions - 6/1/2014 1:32:07 PM

thishereboi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

We were talking about religions, not republicans. You do know the difference, right?

Yes, I do know the difference. It was the Rep politicians and their supporters who did not know the difference.

You are the one who responded to my comment about religions with some bullshit about republicans. Although I am not a bit surprised to see you try to blame "the Rep politicians and their supporters" for it after all pointing fingers is what you do best. But just for shits and giggles why don't you try to explain how they made you type that lame ass reponse. They didn't know the difference and that somehow effected how you think. that's pretty incredible even for these boards.

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RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions - 6/1/2014 2:36:04 PM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

That is a link to a paper some guy wrote. Your claim was that K believes prayer can make ice pretty and unless you can show me a link where he claims that I will have to assume you are lying again.

Either you can't read or you are being intentionally obtuse. Which is it?

Just waiting for you to back up that claim you made. So did you find the link where he said that or are you going to finally admit you were lying again?

Dumbass liar
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=3670804
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=3673726
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=3673751
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=3674249
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=3675458

So you read the thread and never found any posts where Kirata supported the nonsensical concept at all? Why do you lie?

what am I lying about, I asked you for a fucking link showing where he said he believed prayer could make ice pretty. So far all you have done is give me links where he has tried to explain an experiment to you. It wasn't his experiment and although he did originally link it, I can't find any post where he says he believes it. Now it's very possible that that post is out there somewhere and he might even pop in at some point and clear it up. But based on your history, I am not going to hold my breath.

Are you really that dense? Read those posts. He is either a liar or he believes the prayers made the ice pretty.

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RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions - 6/1/2014 4:26:34 PM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Are you really that dense? Read those posts. He is either a liar or he believes the prayers made the ice pretty.

You are proposing a false dilemma. There are other possibilities. One is that you're hallucinating. Another is that you're just making shit up. Overall, I think the evidence favors the former. But the fact remains that you carefully avoided linking this post:

I post a link to a study that produced only equivocal results that offered no robust support for Emoto's claims, and you hope I haven't "fallen for this shit"? ~Link

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 6/1/2014 4:32:47 PM >

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RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions - 6/1/2014 4:32:38 PM

DomKen

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So what precisely did you mean here

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

Hey, I have an idea! Maybe...Maybe that's why they tell you to talk to your plants! They're made up of water too! Say nice things, play Vivaldi (Any will do cause It's all full of beauty) and just give a plant a hug!

Maybe you should. Remember "The Secret Life of Plants"?

Actually, most of the stuff I've seen on the effects of intention on water was done with plants. But as it happens, an earlier study on water crystals got significant results too.

K.

Then? Were you lying?

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RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions - 6/1/2014 4:33:59 PM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

So what precisely did you mean here

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

Hey, I have an idea! Maybe...Maybe that's why they tell you to talk to your plants! They're made up of water too! Say nice things, play Vivaldi (Any will do cause It's all full of beauty) and just give a plant a hug!

Maybe you should. Remember "The Secret Life of Plants"?

Actually, most of the stuff I've seen on the effects of intention on water was done with plants. But as it happens, an earlier study on water crystals got significant results too.

Then? Were you lying?

So it's hallucinating, then.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 6/1/2014 4:35:13 PM >

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RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions - 6/1/2014 4:40:33 PM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

So what precisely did you mean here

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

Hey, I have an idea! Maybe...Maybe that's why they tell you to talk to your plants! They're made up of water too! Say nice things, play Vivaldi (Any will do cause It's all full of beauty) and just give a plant a hug!

Maybe you should. Remember "The Secret Life of Plants"?

Actually, most of the stuff I've seen on the effects of intention on water was done with plants. But as it happens, an earlier study on water crystals got significant results too.

Then? Were you lying?

So it's hallucinating, then.

K.

So you meant that you were full of shit then and now? Gotcha ya.

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RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions - 6/1/2014 5:08:50 PM

deathtothepixies

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterCA

You drip hate with every breath.

nice to see you back H, we have been short of hypocrites for a while now.

I am sure we are all looking forward to more of your thought provoking insightful posts.

Personally I particularly enjoyed all your pimple related musings, spread the love man

Your posting style

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RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions - 6/1/2014 5:11:13 PM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
Now, if you want to argue for a decline in Islamic sciences starting in the 17th century, that argument can be made, due to a focus on turning to traditional sciences and abandoning their former embrace of experimental science.

[Quote]original: http://physics.about.com/od/cosmologybooks/fr/SpaceChronicles.htm
Between A.D. 800 and A.D. 1200 the intellectual center of the Western world was Baghdad. Why? Its leaders were open to whoever wanted to think stuff up: Jews, Christians, Muslims, doubters. Everybody was granted a seat at the debating table, maximizing the exchange of ideas. [...] Historians will say that with the sack of Baghdad by Mongols in the thirteenth century, the entire nonsectarian intellectual foundation of that enterprise collapsed, along with the libraries that supported it. But if you also track the cultural and religious forces at play, you find that the influential writings of the eleventh-century Muslim scholar and theologian Al-Ghazali shaped how Islam viewed the natural world. By declaring the manipulation of numbers to be the work of the devil, and by promoting the concept of Allah’s will as the cause of all natural phenomena, Ghazali unwittingly quenched scientific endeavor in the Muslim world. And it has never recovered, even to this day.

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RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions - 6/1/2014 5:14:00 PM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

So you meant that you were full of shit then and now? Gotcha ya.

Attachment (1)

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RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions - 6/1/2014 6:21:32 PM

thishereboi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

So what precisely did you mean here

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

Hey, I have an idea! Maybe...Maybe that's why they tell you to talk to your plants! They're made up of water too! Say nice things, play Vivaldi (Any will do cause It's all full of beauty) and just give a plant a hug!

Maybe you should. Remember "The Secret Life of Plants"?

Actually, most of the stuff I've seen on the effects of intention on water was done with plants. But as it happens, an earlier study on water crystals got significant results too.

Then? Were you lying?

So it's hallucinating, then.

K.

Correct me if I am wrong, but it sounds like you are saying most of the stuff you have seen has been done with plants but there were others studies on water crystals. I don't see anything that implies you do or don't believe the studies.

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RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions - 6/1/2014 6:57:37 PM

Musicmystery

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
Now, if you want to argue for a decline in Islamic sciences starting in the 17th century, that argument can be made, due to a focus on turning to traditional sciences and abandoning their former embrace of experimental science.

[Quote]original: http://physics.about.com/od/cosmologybooks/fr/SpaceChronicles.htm
Between A.D. 800 and A.D. 1200 the intellectual center of the Western world was Baghdad. Why? Its leaders were open to whoever wanted to think stuff up: Jews, Christians, Muslims, doubters. Everybody was granted a seat at the debating table, maximizing the exchange of ideas. [...] Historians will say that with the sack of Baghdad by Mongols in the thirteenth century, the entire nonsectarian intellectual foundation of that enterprise collapsed, along with the libraries that supported it. But if you also track the cultural and religious forces at play, you find that the influential writings of the eleventh-century Muslim scholar and theologian Al-Ghazali shaped how Islam viewed the natural world. By declaring the manipulation of numbers to be the work of the devil, and by promoting the concept of Allah’s will as the cause of all natural phenomena, Ghazali unwittingly quenched scientific endeavor in the Muslim world. And it has never recovered, even to this day.

Sorry, but there's a whole lot of history that disagrees with you.

Incidentally, your quote is from a collection of various essays, interviews, and speeches by astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson focusing on the developing role of NASA in the years to come. Not exactly a go-to source on Islamic science.

As already noted, the change took time, and by the 17th century, the turn was to traditional science away from experimental science. Those same number-phobic dudes, by the way, advanced algebra from its Babylonian roots. The Persian mathematician Omar Khayyam is credited with identifying the foundations of algebraic geometry and found the general geometric solution of the cubic equation. Another Persian mathematician, Sharaf al-Dīn al-Tūsī, found algebraic and numerical solutions to various cases of cubic equations. He also developed the concept of a function. The Indian mathematicians Mahavira and Bhaskara II, the Persian mathematician Al-Karaji,and the Chinese mathematician Zhu Shijie, solved various cases of cubic, quartic, quintic and higher-order polynomial equations using numerical methods.

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RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions - 6/1/2014 7:12:52 PM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

Correct me if I am wrong, but it sounds like you are saying most of the stuff you have seen has been done with plants but there were others studies on water crystals. I don't see anything that implies you do or don't believe the studies.

That's very true. I simply found it interesting. The effects of conscious intention are documented (see here). Prayer not so much. But it's difficult to get a firm handle on the subject. In particular, managing adequate controls poses a thorny problem (see here). Ken is just being his usual lying self when he claims I believe that prayer makes pretty crystals. But if you look at the broad sweep of data in the various areas of Psi research, it does seem to me to be abundantly clear that something is going on. And that in itself is enough to provoke Ken to behave like an agitated priest bent on eradicating heresy.

K.

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RE: The Erosion of Progress by Religions - 6/1/2014 8:37:15 PM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

Correct me if I am wrong, but it sounds like you are saying most of the stuff you have seen has been done with plants but there were others studies on water crystals. I don't see anything that implies you do or don't believe the studies.

That's very true. I simply found it interesting. The effects of conscious intention are documented (see here). Prayer not so much. But it's difficult to get a firm handle on the subject. In particular, managing adequate controls poses a thorny problem (see here). Ken is just being his usual lying self when he claims I believe that prayer makes pretty crystals. But if you look at the broad sweep of data in the various areas of Psi research, it does seem to me to be abundantly clear that something is going on. And that in itself is enough to provoke Ken to behave like an agitated priest bent on eradicating heresy.

So IOW you as usual won't make a positive statement of any kind. so very brave of you. Dumbass.

I at least will make positive statements. Such as that you are a liar.

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