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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/19/2014 5:13:50 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

Let us pretend that this absurd typecasting is reversed. Would it then be ok for Jews to exterminate Arabs?


No idea what you're getting at there, Bama.

The Arabs insist upon their right to exterminate Jews. your intent or not when you support them that is what you support.
Are Jews perfect? NO
Is Israel perfect? NO
Do Hamas and many Arab nations want to exterminate the Jews, only if they mean what they say.


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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/19/2014 5:20:51 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

The Arabs insist upon their right to exterminate Jews. your intent or not when you support them that is what you support.
Are Jews perfect? NO
Is Israel perfect? NO
Do Hamas and many Arab nations want to exterminate the Jews, only if they mean what they say.



The notion anyone finding Israels actions wrong must therefore support the Arabs insisting on the right to exterminate Jews, is pure bollocks, even by your standards.

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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/19/2014 6:19:29 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


The Arabs insist upon their right to exterminate Jews. your intent or not when you support them that is what you support.
Are Jews perfect? NO
Is Israel perfect? NO
Do Hamas and many Arab nations want to exterminate the Jews, only if they mean what they say.



There are prominent righties in Israel who are demanding the deaths of all Palestinians. Ayelet Shaked is one, for instance. What we have, now, is the standard sort of talk of 'destroy the tyrants' by the subjugated, matched by the 'exterminate the terrorists' talk of the oppressors. That's how it's *always* been, for time immemorial.



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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/20/2014 1:10:02 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


The current Israeli attack against Gaza is loaded with irony given the existence of a recorded emergency call by one of the kidnapped boys while in the back seat of the car, followed by what sound like muffled gunshots. The IDF knew of the call the following day and yet went on an eighteen day rampage against the Palestinians of the West Bank. Eighteen days of arrests and home invasions searching for the boys , a time during which the Israeli authorities had pretty good evidence that the boys were already dead.

During those eighteen days there was a great outcry from the Israeli Right condemning Hamas with collective guilt. Three murders by two individuals were ramped up into an attack against the State by incessant propa/ganda.

The Palestinian pov is that Israel revoked the cease fire of 2012 by attacking in the WB.


The notion that Palestinians intitate unprovoked violence against peace-loving law abiding Israelis is absurd.

Everyday, day after day after day, whatever serenity exits on the West bank is shattered by Israeli violence and ethnic cleansing. Every day, land is stolen, crops destroyed and olive plantations uprooted by either the IDF or settler/colonist thugs. Every day Palestinians are arrested tortured and incarcerated by the IDF. Every third day on average a child is killed by the IDF. Palestinians are shot by the IDF almost daily, often in circumstances that suggest cold blooded murder. Daily children are kidnapped, tortured and incarcerated by the IDF. Daily armed settler thugs, either protected or abetted by the IDF attack peaceful Palestinian villages and towns. Daily the IDF blows up houses, water wells, destroys families and liveliehoods because it can. I could go on but you get the picture .....

All of this falls under the Western media's radar because it's too low key. But no Westerner would accept life under this kind of brutal occupation for a moment. All of this Israeli violence is illegal under international law - as previously pointed out, Israel does not have a right of self defence to lands it illegally occupies and steals. The only surprising thing is not that there is violence, but the extent to which one side - the Israeli side - is responsible for almost all of it, and the limited extent of retaliatory violence from Palestinians.

All of this violence is underwritten by the US taxpayer. Is this what you guys pay your taxes for? This violence will continue until the price Israel pays for its ethnic cleansing and apartheid becomes too high. It's time for the US taxpayer to put a stop to this State terrorism, ethnic cleansing and apartheid. Continuing to support it, to finance it and provide diplomatic cover for Israeli crimes is indefensible.

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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/20/2014 6:30:24 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
Sweet Jesus. Righties will unfailingly squeal, so consistently and so shrilly that it perforates our eardrums, that every time the word 'racism' comes up it's a case of 'political correctness'. But, for feck's sake, was there ever a clearer and more naked case of racism than this? Israelis are solid, suit-wearing, wholesome, white toothed, Hannah Montana-loving, clean-living and ordinary "people". Palestinians, on the other hand, are subhuman, demented primitives with an alien, nutty religion and unpronounceable names.


Whoa there! You risk bringing down the vengeful hand of the Yahweh with that Hannah Montana accusation.


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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/20/2014 8:48:21 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

All of this violence is underwritten by the US taxpayer. Is this what you guys pay your taxes for?


The US Taxpayer has as much influence over Federal policy as the Aussie Roo has influence over Australian policy. The only difference at the moment at least is that there is no organized cull of the former.

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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/20/2014 10:28:37 AM   
Zonie63


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From: The Old Pueblo
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
All of this violence is underwritten by the US taxpayer. Is this what you guys pay your taxes for? This violence will continue until the price Israel pays for its ethnic cleansing and apartheid becomes too high. It's time for the US taxpayer to put a stop to this State terrorism, ethnic cleansing and apartheid. Continuing to support it, to finance it and provide diplomatic cover for Israeli crimes is indefensible.


The US taxpayer has been paying for this for as long as I can remember. A lot of people just seem to accept it as an automatic thing, something that we don't even have any choice over. I learned this rather early in life when we were stuck hundreds of miles from home and couldn't get enough gas - all due to shortages and gas lines because of the Arab oil embargo.

As far as US taxpayers and the way politics goes in this country, I don't know how high of a priority Israel is in the eyes of the electorate overall. Or at least, I'm not sure if support or non-support of Israel would necessarily be a deal-breaker in the eyes of many voters, depending on their stance on other issues. From a politician's standpoint, if they think their constituents don't really care that much about Israel, they might support a pro-Israel position in exchange for something their constituents really do care about.

But as the cracks in the economy start to get bigger, I think more and more people are seeing that the pro-interventionist side has less and less to offer in exchange for public/political support for these kinds of overseas activities. Even whatever kind of "feel good" sentiment might exist from "preserving freedom and democracy" (such as it is)...that doesn't fix the roads or pay the bills.

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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/20/2014 11:45:38 AM   
thompsonx


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ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy
They tried and lost...


When did they try that?



Please.... Anglo-Powhatan Wars, Pequot War, King Philip's War, King Williams's War, Pontiac's War, the French and Indian War, Northwest Indian War, Tecumseh's War, Creek Wars, Cherokee-American Wars, Black Hawk War, Seminole Wars...I left out several I know and that's just the Eastern Wars prior to the Civil War....

Shall we head West???


I am sorry I must have misunderstood your position. When you said "they tried that" You meant the many times they were overcome by soldiers murdering their women and children.
Now I understand your position. The u.s. army was incapable of beating the men so they attacked the women and children.


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Profile   Post #: 88
RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/21/2014 3:01:44 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

All of this violence is underwritten by the US taxpayer. Is this what you guys pay your taxes for?


The US Taxpayer has as much influence over Federal policy as the Aussie Roo has influence over Australian policy. The only difference at the moment at least is that there is no organized cull of the former.

I can understand your position perfectly. It's pretty much the same story here.

I can report that, despite the more-than-passing resemblance of our politicians to kangaroos, there are no plans for a cull of politicians either. There are a number of viewpoints as to whether this is a good or bad thing .....

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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/21/2014 3:31:42 AM   
tweakabelle


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From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
All of this violence is underwritten by the US taxpayer. Is this what you guys pay your taxes for?


The US taxpayer has been paying for this for as long as I can remember.
[snip ....]

As far as US taxpayers and the way politics goes in this country, I don't know how high of a priority Israel is in the eyes of the electorate overall. Or at least, I'm not sure if support or non-support of Israel would necessarily be a deal-breaker in the eyes of many voters, depending on their stance on other issues.
[snip ....]

But as the cracks in the economy start to get bigger, I think more and more people are seeing that the pro-interventionist side has less and less to offer in exchange for public/political support for these kinds of overseas activities. Even whatever kind of "feel good" sentiment might exist from "preserving freedom and democracy" (such as it is)...that doesn't fix the roads or pay the bills.


Isn't it tragic how way that politians and vested interests exploit the apathy of their electorates to pursue their own agendas? The compliance of the media further excerbates this sad state of affairs.

The US public may have much more power to intervene positively in these affairs than it may appear. For example look at the role the people of the US insisted that the Vietnam war was brought to a close. Or the effect of public disenchantment with US involvement in the seeming never ending disputes in the ME.

So US citizens have the power to change things when they put their mind to it. The economic decline in the US should act as an aid to this movement as you point out. Another way that individually and collectively contribute to Palestinian liberation is join with millions of other like-minded people across the globe in the ever growing Boycott Divestment and Sanction movement against Israeli belligerence and the Occupation of Palestine. Check out http://www.bdsmovement.net/ for further info

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Profile   Post #: 90
RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/21/2014 7:13:29 AM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


The current Israeli attack against Gaza is loaded with irony given the existence of a recorded emergency call by one of the kidnapped boys while in the back seat of the car, followed by what sound like muffled gunshots. The IDF knew of the call the following day and yet went on an eighteen day rampage against the Palestinians of the West Bank. Eighteen days of arrests and home invasions searching for the boys , a time during which the Israeli authorities had pretty good evidence that the boys were already dead.

During those eighteen days there was a great outcry from the Israeli Right condemning Hamas with collective guilt. Three murders by two individuals were ramped up into an attack against the State by incessant propa/ganda.

The Palestinian pov is that Israel revoked the cease fire of 2012 by attacking in the WB.


The notion that Palestinians intitate unprovoked violence against peace-loving law abiding Israelis is absurd.

Everyday, day after day after day, whatever serenity exits on the West bank is shattered by Israeli violence and ethnic cleansing. Every day, land is stolen, crops destroyed and olive plantations uprooted by either the IDF or settler/colonist thugs. Every day Palestinians are arrested tortured and incarcerated by the IDF. Every third day on average a child is killed by the IDF. Palestinians are shot by the IDF almost daily, often in circumstances that suggest cold blooded murder. Daily children are kidnapped, tortured and incarcerated by the IDF. Daily armed settler thugs, either protected or abetted by the IDF attack peaceful Palestinian villages and towns. Daily the IDF blows up houses, water wells, destroys families and liveliehoods because it can. I could go on but you get the picture .....

All of this falls under the Western media's radar because it's too low key. But no Westerner would accept life under this kind of brutal occupation for a moment. All of this Israeli violence is illegal under international law - as previously pointed out, Israel does not have a right of self defence to lands it illegally occupies and steals. The only surprising thing is not that there is violence, but the extent to which one side - the Israeli side - is responsible for almost all of it, and the limited extent of retaliatory violence from Palestinians.

All of this violence is underwritten by the US taxpayer. Is this what you guys pay your taxes for? This violence will continue until the price Israel pays for its ethnic cleansing and apartheid becomes too high. It's time for the US taxpayer to put a stop to this State terrorism, ethnic cleansing and apartheid. Continuing to support it, to finance it and provide diplomatic cover for Israeli crimes is indefensible.



That's right tweaky, it's all Israel's fault and the us for standing behind them. Never mind that the Palestinians strap bombs to their kids or let terrorists hide out near schools and other places kids might be as if they are hoping one of them will be killed in a strike so they can wail about it and use it for an excuse for even more violence. It's a never ending cycle and both sides have blame in it. Funny that you only see the bad in the one side but it does explain your attitude about the us.



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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/21/2014 7:28:02 AM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

That's right tweaky, it's all Israel's fault and the us for standing behind them. Never mind that the Palestinians strap bombs to their kids or let terrorists hide out near schools and other places kids might be as if they are hoping one of them will be killed in a strike so they can wail about it and use it for an excuse for even more violence. It's a never ending cycle and both sides have blame in it. Funny that you only see the bad in the one side but it does explain your attitude about the us.




Just like how Dems are using kids to convince certain bleeding hearts that we need to erase our borders

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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/21/2014 7:33:59 AM   
Musicmystery


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Yeah, the violence and gangs in central America were taught, placed, and armed there by Democrats just so kids would be forced to flee north and erase our borders.

It's an ingenuous plan.


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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/21/2014 7:54:27 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Yeah, the violence and gangs in central America were taught, placed, and armed there by Democrats just so kids would be forced to flee north and erase our borders.

It's an ingenuous plan.





Well I suppose if they could plant bombs in the trade center towers while it was being built in order to create the illusion of planes flying into them years and years in the future anything is possible.

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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/21/2014 8:29:55 AM   
Sanity


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

Well I suppose if they could plant bombs in the trade center towers while it was being built in order to create the illusion of planes flying into them years and years in the future anything is possible.


As our borders are being overrun some of these undocumented Democrats from Honduras and Guatemala are dropping Muslim prayer rugs and Korans etc

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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/21/2014 8:58:03 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi
[Palestinians] let terrorists hide out near schools and other places kids might be as if they are hoping one of them will be killed in a strike so they can wail about it and use it for an excuse for even more violence.



You need to update your information about precisely who uses human shields. Need I point out that the soldiers using the kid as a human shield are Israeli?




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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/21/2014 10:03:14 AM   
Zonie63


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Isn't it tragic how way that politians and vested interests exploit the apathy of their electorates to pursue their own agendas? The compliance of the media further excerbates this sad state of affairs.


Most politicians just want to get re-elected. They need positive media attention in order to accomplish that, although the goals of the media are a bit more nebulous. For the most part, the media have pushed interventionism wholeheartedly throughout most of my lifetime, not just with Israel, but elsewhere around the world.

It is somewhat inexplicable, since other examples of U.S. interventionism would suggest some sort of economic benefit for the U.S., although in the case of Israel, the U.S. gets nothing in return for its support. Considering the Arab oil embargo and subsequent price jumps in oil which crippled the U.S. economy, supporting Israel has been an overall net loss for the U.S. economy.

quote:


The US public may have much more power to intervene positively in these affairs than it may appear. For example look at the role the people of the US insisted that the Vietnam war was brought to a close. Or the effect of public disenchantment with US involvement in the seeming never ending disputes in the ME.


Yes, I agree that the public has the power to intervene positively, although a lot has changed in America since the days of the Vietnam War and the anti-war protests back then. The media were different back then, too. A lot of music from that era was far more politically-oriented and appealed to the anti-war sentiment of the time. Academia and civil rights groups were also quite activist at that time and were concurrently anti-war as well. Of course, it still took quite a number of years of massive protests before the U.S. actually pulled out of there, and it's not clear how much the protests were a factor in US politics overall. There apparently weren't enough protesters to defeat Nixon in '72. Nixon also supported Israel in the 1973 war, which led to the Arab oil embargo.


quote:

So US citizens have the power to change things when they put their mind to it. The economic decline in the US should act as an aid to this movement as you point out. Another way that individually and collectively contribute to Palestinian liberation is join with millions of other like-minded people across the globe in the ever growing Boycott Divestment and Sanction movement against Israeli belligerence and the Occupation of Palestine. Check out http://www.bdsmovement.net/ for further info


Political opinions in the US seem to be going in a completely different direction these days. Ultimately, I think Americans will start to realize that this is not really our fight and that we should not take sides in it. But the problem is that we've already taken sides, and there's the feeling that we should stay the course, since pulling out our support of Israel would be dishonorable. They're still seen as a strong, reliable ally all during the Cold War, so it's difficult to advocate reversing that perception. And then there's the whole "holy land" angle which is rather important to the Christian Right.

The other side to this is that, if one is going to try to shift public opinion away from a pro-Israel stance, what would this actually mean for America and our relationship with the Arab and Muslim worlds? If the US withdraws its support of Israel, would this mean peace? I think that people might support such a proposal if they thought it could achieve a positive goal, but there's no real guarantee for any lasting peace. If people could be reasonably convinced that it could lead to something good, then it would be a sellable proposal.

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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/21/2014 10:10:39 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

Well I suppose if they could plant bombs in the trade center towers while it was being built in order to create the illusion of planes flying into them years and years in the future anything is possible.


As our borders are being overrun some of these undocumented Democrats from Honduras and Guatemala are dropping Muslim prayer rugs and Korans etc

Yes, Islam, the dominant religion of South America.

At least you're worth a laugh here and there.

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Profile   Post #: 98
RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/21/2014 10:28:10 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi
[Palestinians] let terrorists hide out near schools and other places kids might be as if they are hoping one of them will be killed in a strike so they can wail about it and use it for an excuse for even more violence.



You need to update your information about precisely who uses human shields. Need I point out that the soldiers using the kid as a human shield are Israeli?




That looks a lot more like a prisoner than a shield.
A Should go back to base every time they take a prisoner?
B Release all prisoners so they are not endangered by other terrorists?
C Shoot all prisoners?
Not the same as hiding in an elementary school even if you were right now is it?


_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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Profile   Post #: 99
RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/21/2014 10:31:17 AM   
mnottertail


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if not a shield, why isnt he towards the back with the guys in the background? Prisoners on point are a shield.

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Profile   Post #: 100
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