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Reward/Punishment - 9/14/2014 6:51:02 PM

DesFIP

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Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
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On the 'cater to' thread, Manko posited that every power relationship must have a reward and punishment dynamic.

My own response to that is that's bizarre. We have neither. In fact, if we had to do that, it would mean we weren't a good match.
I am not a trained seal, willing to do anything for a piece of fish. Try this on me and my response will be to not want the reward.

As far as punishment goes, if that's how you motivate and change behavior, it tells me that you aren't smart enough or are too damned lazy to identify the underlying problem and solve it.
And I'm not interested in someone like that.

Wondering how many people here subscribe to the puppy training theory of relationships. As opposed to talking things out and fixing them.

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Post #: 1

RE: Reward/Punishment - 9/14/2014 7:19:57 PM

littleladybug

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This goes back to the same issue that has been discussed for eons-- people believing that they *know* how these relationships should be. You're doing the same thing here. For you, it doesn't work. Apparently, for lots of others, it does.

For me, I have no problem with certain "incentives" in life. If I know that there's a reward coming after a particularly arduous task, you bet your ass I'm going to be more motivated to get it done. Happens at work all the time... In terms of punishment? So long as I know *why* it's happening, and it's not something that is used in lieu of having actual communication in the relationship, it's also something that I will accept. In that case, I believe it has absolutely NOTHING to do with intelligence or desire to solve a problem. It's just a *different* way that used at times in my relationships to address issues. Communication and a "reward/punishment dynamic" are not mutually exclusive, at least in my case.

Good thing there's the power of choice for those who don't want a reward/punishment dynamic in their relationship, eh?

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 2

RE: Reward/Punishment - 9/14/2014 7:24:03 PM

shiftyw

Posts: 2837
Joined: 6/6/2013
From: The Shire
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No punishment or reward here either, although we are bedroom only- so factor that in.

I feel similarly to you. If someone were to pat me on the head every time I did it right, I'd start seeing that as condescending, personally. I also don't subscribe to submissives being pathetic children incapable of basic skills without their master (and if that's your goal as a dom, whatever, I'm just saying I don't subscribe to that).

Regarding punishment...we like funishment on occasion- but if someone has to treat me like a child (outside of age play) or a puppy- I'm not a good match for them.

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 3

RE: Reward/Punishment - 9/14/2014 8:28:21 PM

SeekingTrinity

Posts: 1834
Joined: 5/29/2012
From: The 'burbs of Portland, OR
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~FRing it~

We do not use a punishment/reward system either. The one in Dom mode does whatever the hell they want, be it something that is pleasurable or unpleasant. Frankly it would annoy the crap out of me to be in the whole puppy training crap. It would annoy the shit out of him as well. All I can say is that we do not subscribe to this rather foolish notion that every power dynamic requires reward/punishment. We are not a 24/7 TPE, so this may have something to do with it. But in all honesty, there is 100% power exchanged. We just accept it or give it depending on who we are at the given moment.

(in reply to shiftyw)

Post #: 4

RE: Reward/Punishment - 9/14/2014 9:04:40 PM

DaddySatyr

Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
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The honest relationships (the lady actually really did submit) in which I've been involved haven't required punishment; a serious conversation, at times but never punishment.

It's been my experience that when a lady really cares for me and really wants to do for me, if she falls short, she beats herself up enough. She doesn't need my help.

I've also found that anything I do at that time can be felt (by her) as me, "piling on". That is not conducive to maintaining a happy relationship.

Have there been relationships where the lady decided that passive-aggressive behavior was the way to get the BDSM activity she wanted? Yep and I wouldn't call them "honest", "happy" (for me), or "healthy".

Screen captures still RULE! Ya feel me?

_____________________________

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Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

(in reply to SeekingTrinity)

Post #: 5

RE: Reward/Punishment - 9/14/2014 9:27:16 PM

FieryOpal

Posts: 2821
Joined: 12/8/2013
From: Maryland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SeekingTrinity

All I can say is that we do not subscribe to this rather foolish notion that every power dynamic requires reward/punishment. We are not a 24/7 TPE, so this may have something to do with it. But in all honesty, there is 100% power exchanged.

The same here with my last sub, and I much preferred it that way, including leaving the sexual humiliation & punishment out of our D/s. We were able to enjoy one another fully. Believe me, after going without a Domme for 4 years and serving 2 tours in Iraq, he was extremely grateful to have a Kind, non-Sadistic Mistress, and never intentionally displeased me once.

We weren't a 24/7 live-in situation either, but got together on the weekends, and during the week we kept in touch daily. No different than knowing that you belong to your steady SO or to your spouse, and they are your utmost priority in life (other than any kids you may have). There was not a moment when he wasn't aware who owned him, and he made sure I knew that he knew it. I think I may have gotten spoiled by having had such a wonderful submissive, that when he had to transfer to another part of the country and I released him, everyone else just seems to pale by comparision.

_____________________________

Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage. - Lao Tzu
There is no remedy for love but to love more. - Thoreau

(in reply to SeekingTrinity)

Post #: 6

RE: Reward/Punishment - 9/14/2014 9:34:37 PM

BecomingV

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Joined: 11/11/2013
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There's a theory on the motivation for change which states that we all move towards pleasure and away from pain. Now, in BDSM, that which inspires pain and pleasure can be "unexpected." LOL So, you have to think a bit, translate it from vanilla to BDSM.

The masochist looked forward to being hit. That's moving towards pleasure. The masochist refused to date a Dom who wasn't a sadist. That's avoidance of pain (because they wouldn't have been hit by that type of Dom).

The theory goes on to say that we are always teaching people how to treat us, through our encouraging, or discouraging, responses.

In that respect, Manko would be right because we are constantly punishing or rewarding others. A reward could be eye contact or a smile and punishment could be a grimace or a turned back. So, I'd need more information on the context surrounding Manko's assertion to know if I agree, or not.

There's Pavlov's dog. Apparently we humans ARE subject to conditioning. PR and marketing are built on that foundation, because it works. Whether BDSM or vanilla, it could be argued that our partners DO condition us. Within a D/s dynamic, the implication is that even if the Dominant did engage in active and deliberate conditioning of the submissive, that in the process of doing so, the Dominant becomes conditioned, too.

In short, how is punishment and reward defined?

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 7

RE: Reward/Punishment - 9/14/2014 9:35:04 PM

Gauge

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Joined: 6/17/2005
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This is a fast reply.

I will talk things through with my slut and discuss and work out any problem, no matter how little it may be. I do not use punishment or rewards in our relationship. I have had no need to reward her because she pleases me more and more each day. I have no need to punish her either because we have open communication. I don't need a reason to spank her, if I want to, I do. I have used punishment in the past in a relationship, but that was to drive a point home that needed to be illustrated to my submissive at the time. She did something that I asked her not to twice within two days. We talked, I punished her and we talked more so she was clear as to why she was punished.

I feel no compelling need to prove I am dominant by creating punishment and rewards. My slut is there for my taking, she is most eager to please me and makes me proud of her each and every day. This is why I care for her so deeply.

_____________________________

"For there is no folly of the beast of the earth which is not infinitely outdone by the madness of men." Herman Melville - Moby Dick

I'm wearing my chicken suit and humming La Marseillaise.

(in reply to SeekingTrinity)

Post #: 8

RE: Reward/Punishment - 9/14/2014 10:13:01 PM

PandoraFoxxx

Posts: 182
Joined: 1/3/2011
From: San Mateo, CA
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I found it bizarre as well. I have run into this kind of thing so often and it always makes me sad because these dominants are their own worst enemies, never breaking past the ritualistic display of "I are control! Obey me or perish!" into the communication and comfort in knowing they have control and being able to just enjoy it. Even ritual gets mundane if its done too often, and nothing is worse than a submissive who learns that expectation of reward = 100% entitlement. That's a lot of rewards and then who is serving whom to what end? You can kindof create a monster at that point.

(in reply to Gauge)

Post #: 9

RE: Reward/Punishment - 9/15/2014 12:00:11 AM

freedomdwarf1

Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline

FR~

I'm with Des on this as well - we don't have a reward/punishment thing here either.
And much like DaddySatyr said, failing something means the /s gets to beat herself up a lot.
Also, the rewards are something experienced by both and doesn't need anything 'special'.

_____________________________

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”

George Orwell, 1903-1950

(in reply to PandoraFoxxx)

Post #: 10

RE: Reward/Punishment - 9/15/2014 6:25:24 AM

catize

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Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline

My opinion is that the relationship itself should be rewarding--- if it isn't someone will be headed to the door sooner or later. As far as punishment goes, I will not be involved with someone who thinks I need to be punished---for any reason!

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 11

RE: Reward/Punishment - 9/15/2014 7:33:53 AM

SimplyMichael

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Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline

Most people in the scene couldn't house train a puppy, let alone a human. What they create is simply a dysfunctional co-dependent mess and call it M/s or whatever shiny label.

I am currently enjoying two women who were DEEPLY monogamous, adamant about being straight, who now enjoy serving me together and being together.

I didn't do it with a single punishment, a few corrections and observations but primarily through affection and attention to their needs.

The reward is being with me, punishment isn't needed because the focus is on making things better not finding fault.

(in reply to catize)

Post #: 12

RE: Reward/Punishment - 9/15/2014 7:54:48 AM

littleladybug

Posts: 1082
Joined: 5/30/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PandoraFoxxx

I found it bizarre as well. I have run into this kind of thing so often and it always makes me sad because these dominants are their own worst enemies, never breaking past the ritualistic display of "I are control! Obey me or perish!" into the communication and comfort in knowing they have control and being able to just enjoy it. Even ritual gets mundane if its done too often, and nothing is worse than a submissive who learns that expectation of reward = 100% entitlement. That's a lot of rewards and then who is serving whom to what end? You can kindof create a monster at that point.

Is there not any sort of "in between" with this?

I will use a personal "for example":

I bit my nails my entire life. After years of being with my Dom, and him getting frustrated with this on a regular basis, he came up with a "reward/punishment" system that actually worked. Certainly, its success had a lot to do with the nature of the underlying relationship (i.e. it probably wouldn't have worked if this was "just some Dom who wished to throw his 'Domly weight around' "). It also had a lot to do with my own motivation to change my behavior. But, fact is, that scheme became the "tipping point" that allowed me to finally change a life-long behavior. And, no, just the "joy of being with him" was not enough to change it.

I'm not suggesting that this is something that everyone should do, or would want to do. I'm just wondering if it's not a completely black and white issue.

(in reply to PandoraFoxxx)

Post #: 13

RE: Reward/Punishment - 9/15/2014 8:18:23 AM

GoddessManko

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From: Dante's Inferno
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WARNING, SPOILERS.
I finally started watching Nymphomaniac Volume II, and it's a good thing I skipped my morning coffee. The most fascinating character of the series finally emerged. He turned her away initially, just by a glance, she refused...twice. He made her stand, took her chair, put it before him, and told her "I'm going to slap you in the face twice, nothing special". He hit her twice so hard that both times she almost flew from her seat He gave her one rule, they would never have sex, and I smiled as she asked him "what do you get out of it?" He told her no safe word and he knew how to care for his riding crop and that worn leather is the best. He had her acquire it and said simply "not one from a sex shop, we're not going to a masquerade", and my heart started beating faster.
As he strapped her down to the couch, I could feel my body tremble, not only from excitement but fear. He had told her there would be no safe words and one of his prior....submissives, let's call them that, had permanent marks on her legs. As he pulled down her panties he said simply "no knickers next time", he examined her ass...said her ass wasn't high enough. He inserted his fingers beyond the labia minora and said "Thursday, let's see how it goes then".
He put her name on the riding crop as "Fido". He then released her, and my heart is still thumping outside my chest and I'm trembling slightly.
I'm sorry but while reading the posts of many here I feel rather apathetic so it matters not to me how they conduct their business unless they pique my interest in some way.Much like that other site of masqueraders, FL.
Here at least there is a veil of authenticity even though most enjoy only "play time" vs an actual way of life.

_____________________________

Happy consent is the name of the game. You are my perfect Mistress. - my collared.

http://submissivemale.blogspot.com/

The Bird of Hermes is my name, eating my wings to make me tame.

(in reply to littleladybug)

Post #: 14

RE: Reward/Punishment - 9/15/2014 8:30:37 AM

GoddessManko

Posts: 2257
Joined: 3/6/2013
From: Dante's Inferno
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PandoraFoxxx

I found it bizarre as well. I have run into this kind of thing so often and it always makes me sad because these dominants are their own worst enemies, never breaking past the ritualistic display of "I are control! Obey me or perish!" into the communication and comfort in knowing they have control and being able to just enjoy it. Even ritual gets mundane if its done too often, and nothing is worse than a submissive who learns that expectation of reward = 100% entitlement. That's a lot of rewards and then who is serving whom to what end? You can kindof create a monster at that point.

No sweetie, it's called caring enough for your submissive to allow them to be the best versions of themselves, from a caterpillar to a butterfly. Not a bizarre concept...well, maybe for some.

_____________________________

Happy consent is the name of the game. You are my perfect Mistress. - my collared.

http://submissivemale.blogspot.com/

The Bird of Hermes is my name, eating my wings to make me tame.

(in reply to PandoraFoxxx)

Post #: 15

RE: Reward/Punishment - 9/15/2014 8:33:01 AM

GoddessManko

Posts: 2257
Joined: 3/6/2013
From: Dante's Inferno
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: littleladybug

I will use a personal "for example":

I bit my nails my entire life. After years of being with my Dom, and him getting frustrated with this on a regular basis, he came up with a "reward/punishment" system that actually worked. Certainly, its success had a lot to do with the nature of the underlying relationship (i.e. it probably wouldn't have worked if this was "just some Dom who wished to throw his 'Domly weight around' "). It also had a lot to do with my own motivation to change my behavior. But, fact is, that scheme became the "tipping point" that allowed me to finally change a life-long behavior. And, no, just the "joy of being with him" was not enough to change it.

I'm not suggesting that this is something that everyone should do, or would want to do. I'm just wondering if it's not a completely black and white issue.

He sounds like a good, responsible and caring D, my highest regards.

_____________________________

Happy consent is the name of the game. You are my perfect Mistress. - my collared.

http://submissivemale.blogspot.com/

The Bird of Hermes is my name, eating my wings to make me tame.

(in reply to littleladybug)

Post #: 16

RE: Reward/Punishment - 9/15/2014 8:39:06 AM

SeekingTrinity

Posts: 1834
Joined: 5/29/2012
From: The 'burbs of Portland, OR
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For someone who says it doesn't matter how others conduct their business, there certainly seems to be a ton of time spent on various threads dictating exactly how others should conduct their business. Clearly the premise put forth that power dynamics had to have reward/punishment was erroneous. Many relationships look like they function quite well without this must-have component, so it looks like it's not something that people have to have to be successful.

Sadly I'm not sure deflection by insulting others or their dynamics will build a big enough smokescreen to cover this blunder. Perhaps insulting our mothers instead?

< Message edited by SeekingTrinity -- 9/15/2014 8:50:53 AM >

(in reply to GoddessManko)

Post #: 17

RE: Reward/Punishment - 9/15/2014 8:49:25 AM

GoddessManko

Posts: 2257
Joined: 3/6/2013
From: Dante's Inferno
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SeekingTrinity

For someone who says it doesn't matter how others conduct their business, there certainly seems to be a ton of time spent on various threads dictating exactly how others should conduct their business.

Because unlike many of you who shall remain unnamed, I use the collarchat to genuinely advise and give an objective opinion based on experience, since all of you seem oh so conveniently like minded all the time. Makes sense, right?

quote:

Clearly the premise put forth that power dynamics had to have reward/punishment was erroneous. Many relationships look like they function quite well without this must-have component, so it looks like it's not something that people have to have to be successful.

Even the stern talking to is a form of punishment, uhm so yea. Whatever works in making sure the submissive stays in line, even if it's ignoring them is a form of punishment, so...OK. LOL, I'm sorry but this point is one I hardly thought was valid of argument. I kind of just smiled if one cannot recognize one's own remedy to a sub's failure to, let's call it "perform".

quote:

Sadly Im not sure deflection by insulting others or their dynamics will build a big enough smokescreen to cover this blunder. Perhaps insulting our mothers instead?

Saying I'm apathetic is insultive? Or the fact I think knowing how to care for a worn riding crop is impressive? In my mind's eye, the only attempt at insult was directed at me, and fell flat, apologies for that.

_____________________________

Happy consent is the name of the game. You are my perfect Mistress. - my collared.

http://submissivemale.blogspot.com/

The Bird of Hermes is my name, eating my wings to make me tame.

(in reply to SeekingTrinity)

Post #: 18

RE: Reward/Punishment - 9/15/2014 8:55:06 AM

SeekingTrinity

Posts: 1834
Joined: 5/29/2012
From: The 'burbs of Portland, OR
Status: offline

Face it, your mandate that power dynamics required reward/punishment was wrong. But it's cool, Manko. People make mistakes. Owning a mistake and learning from it is a good thing.

(in reply to GoddessManko)

Post #: 19

RE: Reward/Punishment - 9/15/2014 8:59:29 AM

SimplyMichael

Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline

If you need to "keep them in line" then in my book, you are failing at the very core of what Dominance and Mastery are all about.

You need a "well cared for riding crop" to keep yours in line because you need fear, punishment, etc to force them to do what they don't want. Some of us skip that crap entirely and get ours to internalize our desires so they become theirs and no crop, no fear, no punishments are needed to gain obedience.

(in reply to GoddessManko)

Post #: 20

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