Zonie63
Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FieryOpal
Zonie, I'm not saying that you're like this, but just going by the way most men of all ages talk amongst themselves, I long ago concluded that the link between the sexual objectification of women and men's laissez-faire attitudes toward it is because:
1. There are men who think that women are essentially like them, anatomical differences aside. That we think alike, that we are soft-wired the same. This is the "sameness" fallacy of Equal Rights which has corroded feminist thought on a philosophical level with which many militant feminists and so-called egalitarians have carried the ball. We are all of equal value as individuals. We are all not the same, however. A Dominant is not the same as a submissive; a submissive is not the same as a Dominant. Yet we still have equal value and intrinsic worth (or should).
I agree, although the key phrase that always comes to mind is "equal rights before the law," but that doesn't necessarily mean equality in other areas (income, education, family, etc.). I don't think that men and women are the same, nor is it even true within genders. No two men are the same, and no two women are the same. We're all individuals. That's what I was referring to earlier when I was writing about how people in one group look at those in "the other" group, whether it's men and women, blacks and whites, Muslims and Christians, Dominants and submissives, or whatever grouping one might see.
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2. Ergo men think women want to be treated the same way that they themselves want to be treated. There isn't a man I've ever met who doesn't want to be sexually objectified. It's just a matter of by whom. This is why many men don't see anything wrong with stalking. They would love to have a desirable woman, who is not mentally unstable of course, stalking or pursuing them.
For some reason, I'm reminded of the 80s teen movie Just One of the Guys and this line:
Terry: You know, sometimes I just wish I was a guy.
Buddy: No, you don't! The male body needs sex at all times! It's a living hell!
I couldn't find the exact quote, but the same character (Buddy) says something to the effect (in regards to Women's Liberation) that "women are now just as free to be as perverted and sex-crazed as the guys." Kind of a silly flick, but it did raise some interesting points.
Of course, as with many things, there's a fine line between pursuing and stalking. Traditionally, that's what many men have been conditioned to do, to pursue the object of their affections, while the women are told to play hard to get. It's possible that some men might have (mistakenly) believed that the rise of gender equality would have relieved them of certain expectations in this area, and after transcending the era of free love and the sexual revolution, there might be a certain "side effect" at work here.
I don't know any men who believe that there isn't anything wrong with stalking, although people may have differences of opinion as to where the threshold between pursuit and stalking actually is.
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3. So even those men who wouldn't engage in these non-consensual behaviors themselves, are often not quick to condemn other men who do. The problem with vanilla conduct between the sexes is that the vanilla world does not automatically acknowledge the right to consensuality between persons without raising awareness. I know of kinksters who are still ignorant about consensual BDSM, those who have no regard for basic D/s protocols.
4. Which goes to show that this egalitarian crap is just a bag of hot air and has no actual substance to it. It's a way for those men to justify *getting theirs* and for getting away with socially unacceptable behavior.
That may be true to some extent. It's not the first time that any desire for social reform has gone awry. Certain ideals, which sound wonderful when discussed abstractly in the insular confines of Academia, might fall flat when it actually gets implemented and made policy.
As long as we have our Constitution, Bill of Rights, and equality before the law, that's about the best we can hope for.
Regarding what people do and their socially unacceptable behavior, I find myself in a quandary about that. I mentioned in an earlier post that this is related to an overall problem of a lack of manners and civility in general, not just in situations like in this video. A lot of people are just plain rude; some act like loud, obnoxious turds. I just can't understand it sometimes. I was raised to be generally nice and polite, with a certain set of manners. I see a lot of stickers on people's cars to "Be Kind," which is a nice sentiment with which I agree.
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ORIGINAL: FieryOpal
quote:
ORIGINAL: Zonie63
As for addressing the subject of how a woman dresses, that's always a can of worms. Strictly speaking, the view that it shouldn't matter is one that holds prevalence. Citizens in a free society have every right to dress as they choose and no one has any right to attack or harass anyone else based on that or any other pretext.
Again, the disconnect and cognitive dissonance between what we've been told is acceptable to say in public in mixed company, and what is actually believed within, or what we understand about how some males behave toward females whom they perceive as being *open game*. Yes, many people still believe that a woman who dresses provocatively, exposes parts of her body, or wears tight-fitting clothing, invites not only unwanted male attention, but is "asking for it."
Some might make those assumptions about someone's motives, although I've found that it varies from individual to individual. A woman who dresses provocatively will get male attention, even if they try to be on their best behavior and pretend they're looking at something else. Men who have been raised with good manners will make every effort to remain civilized, practicing restraint and decorum. Other men might not be so restrained or able to keep themselves under control. But most men would understand what's going on inside their own minds, and they can extrapolate how other men are perceiving the same stimuli.
That may be why some men see it differently. If they see a woman dressed provocatively, the other men might see it as "oh, he just cracked under the pressure," whereas a woman might see it as something quite different.
On a somewhat side note, at least regarding women I know, when it comes to women and clothes, there's a kind of alternate reality which I've never been able to fully understand. Not that there's anything wrong with it, but it's something I've found difficult to fathom, which is why I'm more inclined to avoid any assumptions about why a woman chooses to wear whatever outfit they're wearing. However, I've noticed that many women and men tend to go for the latest fads, fashions, and styles, and I must confess that it's a personality type I don't easily relate to.
I don't think it says anything about one's sexual mores, or that they're open game or "asking for it," but I also don't see that there's anything deep or meaningful about it either. It's probably something simply explained as "everyone else is doing it," the overriding "logic" of popular culture. I remember when Madonna made it big, a lot of women and girls started dressing like Madonna. I'm completely favorable to equal rights for all citizens, including gender equality and all its permutations, but when I see so many people who are free and independent to make their own choices succumb to pressure to conform like that, I tend to wonder.
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ORIGINAL: FieryOpal
quote:
ORIGINAL: Zonie63
I remember when I was over at a friend's house, and his 15-year-old niece was about to go to the mall with her friends. She was wearing a very, very short skirt, and her uncle told her to wear something else. I wouldn't say that they got into an argument over it, but she was clearly not happy about it and genuinely could not understand why she had to wear something different to go out to the mall. Some might view his attitude as sexist and chauvinistic, although from his point of view, he might have seen it as more protective. If, as you say, a man's duty is to protect women, then he would see it as his interpretation of carrying out that duty. Sometimes, there's a thin line between being protective and oppressive, and that's the dilemma faced by many men in this society.
I don't have a daughter, but if I did, you can bet I'd be hovering over her like a she-hawk. That girl wouldn't be allowed to go anywhere unchaperoned.
As for parental protectiveness, I have heard out of his own mouth, a so-called liberal progressive who has the loosest sexual morals of any man older than me I have ever met, say that it is a girl's parents' duty to make sure she doesn't leave the house WITH THEM ON A FAMILY OUTING without wearing a blouse which could expose anything when she bends over. That it is their fault for not teaching their underage daughter to keep covered up so as not to entice adult male predators.  Because apparently, men have a free pass to act badly and inappropriately to females and shouldn't be held accountable for their natural urges. A Rape Culture Re-Invented.
[Edited for missing word]
I'd like to think that nobody has a free pass to violate the rights of others, but in this society, there are times and places where we can't always depend on everyone being a law-abiding citizen respectful of the rights of other citizens. Many people have developed certain urban survival skills in order to hopefully avoid being a target or victim. Some people learn self-defense, some people carry guns, as well as certain attitudes and mannerisms which might help to deter potential attackers. Maintain a certain situational awareness. I don't think one can totally control the actions of one's children, although perhaps that lecture on the facts of life may have to include more than just the birds and the bees. People have to be made aware of the risks out there.
By the same token, we men can try our best to support and maintain a law-abiding society and protect the rights of others, but realistically, it's not possible to control everything that happens out there. Nobody gets a free pass to act badly and inappropriately to females, and most men try to keep it under control. I think many, if not most, men do the best they can, but we can't make it go away entirely.
That's kind of what I hear in these kinds of discussions, where women might say "Well, you men, DO something about this!" What can we do? We can lock up the guilty and protect the innocent, but there's no magic we can use here. When we see it happening, we can call it out, but a lot of men just don't see it all that much. Maybe I'm just lost in my own thoughts and not paying attention enough, especially if I'm walking in a crowd full of strangers; what they say or do is just so much "white noise" to me that it's easy to tune out. But I'll try to pay better attention.
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RE: 10 hours of walking in NYC as a woman - 
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Not nowadays, but back in the day, many a vanilla man (whether single or married) expressed a desire to have an attractive woman show them that sort of interest. Nobody wants an undesirable person to "pursue" them. They considered it flattering. These conversations were more than a decade ago, though. 
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