Can someone with 12-step experience give advice to LGH re: her food issues?

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Can someone with 12-step experience give advice to LGH ... - 12/5/2014 3:20:52 PM

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I know a few posters have posted on various addiction threads but I can't recall who they are.

I have worked in the music/entertainment industry and seen a lot of lives saved through NA and AA.

Even atheists.

I know OA works for people who have issues with emotional eating or poor relationships with food.

The resistance in that thread was related to the spiritual aspects of 'the program.'

I know at least two non religious people who got off hard drugs through a 12 step program.

I am hoping someone with first hand experience can chime in explaining that logic. The only thing that comes to mind is this: It's free, you haven't got anything to lose. Just go to it. It's not weight watchers (costs money), a nutritionist (costs money) or a shrink (costs money). And there's support and people who are suffering also -- friendship and help. Skip the religious part if you want, I honestly don't think they care either way.

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RE: Can someone with 12-step experience give advice to ... - 12/5/2014 4:09:47 PM

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I've heard people who are not religious taking things like the group as their higher power. The group, after all, is doing something that individuals cannot; they are staying clean or sober.

I've seen people refer to God as: (G)ood (O)rderly (D)irection.

Please remember that in the steps and traditions, twelve step fellowships reference: "God, as we understand him" (meaning as the individual understands God)

That's when they refer to "God", at all. There's also that "Higher Power" reference. I haven't counted but I think the latter out-numbers the former by a 2:1 ration but I could be wrong (There's also some subtle differences between AA and NA with wording).

I've heard people refer to a chair as a "higher power". I'm not sure how that works but their answer has usually been: "The chair can support me, it must be stronger than I" I'm guessing that that is the same logic that leads people to the group being their higher power; support.

Michael

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RE: Can someone with 12-step experience give advice to ... - 12/5/2014 4:22:10 PM

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I go to 12 step programs. I do consider myself spiritual, non-religious. From my experience, some people can get to be a little over religious but the program itself, does not require anyone to believe in anything. Although, the steps do mention God a number of times. AA mostly uses the Lords Prayer at the end of every service. Let's just not pretend that their aren't some spiritual reality to 12 step rooms. Some 12 step groups won't even use to term "God", instead choosing the term Higher Power, which I like better myself. There is Agnostic meetings, where they won't use the Spiritual nature of the program at all.

What makes the 12 step rooms so effective? Despite AA/NA having a very low success rate? The Fellowship aspect is its strongest root. The support group/system is a very powerful tool. I don't get too caught up in the 12 step nazi mentality. I stay away from those people. I hang out with the people who have common sense.

Overall, 12 steps are free, almost everywhere and can be helpful with the right group of people.

< Message edited by Charles6682 -- 12/5/2014 4:32:36 PM >

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RE: Can someone with 12-step experience give advice to ... - 12/5/2014 4:26:09 PM

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I'm someone who doesn't do OA because of that religious stuff.

But I do know a lot of people who've had success with these programs. They are free, a source of a "community" and a place where it's ok to vent and whine, without judgement, and with listeners who understand it. which is a major thing. I would consider attending a meeting personally but there are none near me. But a support system like that IS valuable, just a question of getting past that spiritual stuff.

(I have bigger issues than some with religious themes throughout this, my friend who attended one really had a hard time with it)

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RE: Can someone with 12-step experience give advice to ... - 12/5/2014 4:47:57 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

I've heard people who are not religious taking things like the group as their higher power. The group, after all, is doing something that individuals cannot; they are staying clean or sober.

An atheist I knew many years ago that god clean in NA considered his "higher power" the Law of Probability. Worked fine for him.

I only skimmed the thread but I think LGH had some issue with the step that said you have to admit you are powerless over x, y z. Well geez you wouldn't be asking for help if you were not somewhat powerless over the issue at fault, right?

And at the very least, get connected with people who are struggling too so you can have someone to call.

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RE: Can someone with 12-step experience give advice to ... - 12/5/2014 4:52:00 PM

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Admitting to be powerless over whatever the problem is, is the most basic step of all. I think that is a universal principle to any form of help. Some people view admitting being powerless as a sign of weakness, which is horseshit to me. I quit drinking booze because I knew I had a problem with it. Now I have more power and control over my life, because I know longer let to alcohol have power over me.

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RE: Can someone with 12-step experience give advice to ... - 12/5/2014 4:58:31 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

I only skimmed the thread but I think LGH had some issue with the step that said you have to admit you are powerless over x, y z. Well geez you wouldn't be asking for help if you were not somewhat powerless over the issue at fault, right?

I only saw stuff going by, in the scroll, at times but at one point, I saw: "Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature ..." and I thought: "Holy shit! Some poor bastard is doing a fourth step!"

In my experience, that's the toughest one of all and the one that sends most people back out. They tend to focus on the negatives (which is kind of the point) but they get mired in the despair instead of drawing on the hope that they can acquire from others.

Fourth Steps are a bitch and will, frequently, fuck with peoples' heads. It's why they're best done with a sponsor (someone who's done it and is still around).

Admitting that one is powerless over (whatever) is the very first step and you're right. It's an essential. If you don't think you are powerless to (whatever), you're bound to try and prove how you can "beat" it. In the rooms, these people are usually referred to as having "not hit their bottom, yet".

It was explained to me as an elevator that only goes down and each of us can decide where we want to get off the elevator.

I'm not quite sure, though, how step one has anything to do with any kind of religious over-tones. Or, am I missing the point?

Michael

< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 12/5/2014 5:10:40 PM >

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RE: Can someone with 12-step experience give advice to ... - 12/5/2014 5:09:10 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha
I only skimmed the thread but I think LGH had some issue with the step that said you have to admit you are powerless over x, y z. Well geez you wouldn't be asking for help if you were not somewhat powerless over the issue at fault, right?

I don't think that's what she meant. It's what leads up to admitting you are powerless, when you got to give yourself up to the greater power which is a religious thing that is an Issue!

I hate all religions, so if 12 steps was anything spiritual or religious, it would make my skin crawl.

And there is no way, I can see GOD as acronyms for something else or see the group as the greater power. I don't believe in greater power than myself.

I believe that's how LGH feels as well, that the power is within herself to change this, and not some mystical or magical "greater" power that doesn't exist.

As for finding fellow friends for support, if everyone in there was religious and was treating greater power as a God. Then seriously, they aren't gonna be great support, because all ya gonna get is, "Give yourself into the holy spirit!", "I will pray for you!"

I just feel that any religious therapy is definitely alienating and not helping anybody who is not in that religion. It's like saying, "I admit I am powerless, give myself up to the magical leprechaun!"
And then you just feel like WTF crazy universe did you just stepped into?

< Message edited by Greta75 -- 12/5/2014 5:11:51 PM >

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RE: Can someone with 12-step experience give advice to ... - 12/5/2014 5:11:51 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha
I only skimmed the thread but I think LGH had some issue with the step that said you have to admit you are powerless over x, y z. Well geez you wouldn't be asking for help if you were not somewhat powerless over the issue at fault, right?

I don't think that's what she meant. It's what leads up to admitting you are powerless, when you got to give yourself up to the greater power which is a religious thing that is an Issue!

I hate all religions, so if 12 steps was anything spiritual or religious, it would make my skin crawl.

And there is no way, I can see GOD as acronyms for something else or see the group as the greater power. I don't believe in greater power than myself.

I believe that's how LGH feels as well, that the power is within herself to change this, and not some mystical or magical "greater" power that doesn't exist.

As for finding fellow friends for support, if everyone in there was religious and was treating greater power as a God. Then seriously, they aren't gonna be great support, because all ya gonna get is, "Give yourself into the holy spirit!", "I will pray for you!"

I just feel that any religious therapy is definitely alienating anybody who is not in that religion.

If drugs or alcohol or food are kicking your ass, I'm thinking there's a greater power than you, by definition.

Michael

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RE: Can someone with 12-step experience give advice to ... - 12/5/2014 5:13:33 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

If drugs or alcohol or food are kicking your ass, I'm thinking there's a greater power than you, by definition.

Michael

You are saying drugs, alcohol and food are the greater power that is controlling you? So then it even makes even less sense to give yourself up to this "greater power" who is causing negative things.

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RE: Can someone with 12-step experience give advice to ... - 12/5/2014 5:16:30 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

If drugs or alcohol or food are kicking your ass, I'm thinking there's a greater power than you, by definition.

Michael

You are saying drugs, alcohol and food are the greater power that is controlling you? So then it even makes even less sense to give yourself up to this "greater power" who is causing negative things.

That's not what I was saying. What I was saying was:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

And there is no way, I can see GOD as acronyms for something else or see the group as the greater power. I don't believe in greater power than myself.

If a substance is kicking your ass, you must not be as powerful as it is. Right? It's more powerful than you are. Now, you don't "give yourself up" to that substance, you understand that if there is one thing more powerful than you, there might be more than one.

Could something else that is more powerful than you be a positive force/influence?

Michael

< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 12/5/2014 5:19:27 PM >

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Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

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RE: Can someone with 12-step experience give advice to ... - 12/5/2014 5:28:19 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr
Could something else that is more powerful than you be a positive force/influence?

People who don't believe in religion will not believe in anything more powerful than you that could be a positive force without evidence of it's existence. So that method doesn't help if they cannot believe.
It takes believing in some magical greater power too, whatever they choose this greater power to be, but for some hardcore anti-religious, anti-god person like me, I don't believe in anything without clear evidence.

And when it comes to neutral psychotherapy, it's about believing in yourself, finding your confidence and finding the power within you to over-come this problem, that's leaving out the religious solution. Finding an mystical greater power is a religious thing or a spiritual thing.

< Message edited by Greta75 -- 12/5/2014 5:31:54 PM >

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RE: Can someone with 12-step experience give advice to ... - 12/5/2014 5:31:36 PM

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Michael's correct that most people do a fourth step composed of solely negative things. Because you have to admit how you've wronged others before you can attempt to make amends. But when someone gets to doing a positive fourth step, that's an incredibly powerful thing.

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RE: Can someone with 12-step experience give advice to ... - 12/5/2014 5:32:09 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr
Could something else that is more powerful than you be a positive force/influence?

People who don't believe in religion will not believe in anything more powerful than you that could be a positive force without evidence of it's existence. So that method doesn't help if they cannot believe.

There are two answers, here. One is more lifestyle related and one is something one might hear in the rooms of AA, NA, or OA:

Lifestyle related: Why not try submitting to the group or the fellowship and understand that their way has been working since 1935?

The one you might hear in the meetings is: "How's that working for you, so far?"

If your way is working, congratulations. If it isn't, maybe you should try another way?

That's all I have for you, personally, on this.

Michael

< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 12/5/2014 5:34:13 PM >

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RE: Can someone with 12-step experience give advice to ... - 12/5/2014 5:38:20 PM

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quote:

Lifestyle related: Why not try submitting to the group or the fellowship and understand that their way has been working since 1935?

I think because it's about changing a fundamental core belief that it is difficult to accept their way, it's almost impossible, because, if you believe in it, it will work, if you don't believe in it, it won't work, it's as simple. I won't deny many people have used religion to heal and it helped them, they felt they had spiritual experiences that convinced them the greater power exists and is out there.

But that's only if they can possibly believe.

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RE: Can someone with 12-step experience give advice to ... - 12/5/2014 7:46:07 PM

LittleGirlHeart

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I do not see how over eating has wronged or hurt anyone else, but yourself. Unless of course you ate all their food, or your eating raises their food costs.

The oa follows that make amends policy as part of the 12 steps.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Michael's correct that most people do a fourth step composed of solely negative things. Because you have to admit how you've wronged others before you can attempt to make amends. But when someone gets to doing a positive fourth step, that's an incredibly powerful thing.

< Message edited by LittleGirlHeart -- 12/5/2014 7:52:21 PM >

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RE: Can someone with 12-step experience give advice to ... - 12/5/2014 7:48:33 PM

LittleGirlHeart

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My lifes un managable because the mental health, or pychological issues that make it so that I don't have the ability(yet) to care for myself, that I am more than willing to self destruct and know I am. I know that my choices amount to slow suicide. Foods a very small part of that. It just feltblike to me they were blaming food for being out of control, like some how if they could just get control over food, that their lives would be fine, or that being powerless over food means that I don't have the option to fight the cravings, or choose if I try to ignore the craving..

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

I've heard people who are not religious taking things like the group as their higher power. The group, after all, is doing something that individuals cannot; they are staying clean or sober.

An atheist I knew many years ago that god clean in NA considered his "higher power" the Law of Probability. Worked fine for him.

I only skimmed the thread but I think LGH had some issue with the step that said you have to admit you are powerless over x, y z. Well geez you wouldn't be asking for help if you were not somewhat powerless over the issue at fault, right?

And at the very least, get connected with people who are struggling too so you can have someone to call.

< Message edited by LittleGirlHeart -- 12/5/2014 7:57:56 PM >

_____________________________

We'll fight, not out of spite
For someone must stand up for what's right
'Cause where there's a man who has no voice
There ours shall go singing

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RE: Can someone with 12-step experience give advice to ... - 12/5/2014 7:53:41 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LittleGirlHeart

I do not see how over eating has wronged or hurt anyone else, but yourself. Unless of course you ate all their food, or your eating raises their food costs.

I have. I've seen the people that become so heavy or unhealthy due to over-eating that they can't do things with their children that their children might enjoy being able to do with their parents.

I've seen people come to the point where they become super dependent upon others for their daily needs.

Of course, these are extreme examples but I'm sure there are a quite a few examples, if you take a close, hard look.

My post though (which I edited out of this response for the sake of clarity/brevity), was mainly focused on drugs/alcohol as that truly is my A.O.

Look, anyone in any twelve step program will tell you: "if your (insert your addiction of choice, here) is not affecting your life in a negative way, that's great. We're behind you. We're here for the people whose lives are being affected by (insert your addiction of choice, here)."

Michael

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Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

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RE: Can someone with 12-step experience give advice to ... - 12/5/2014 7:59:50 PM

LittleGirlHeart

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Yes, I see that now. It also hurts any loved ones you may have to watch someone self destruct.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

quote:

ORIGINAL: LittleGirlHeart

I do not see how over eating has wronged or hurt anyone else, but yourself. Unless of course you ate all their food, or your eating raises their food costs.

I have. I've seen the people that become so heavy or unhealthy due to over-eating that they can't do things with their children that their children might enjoy being able to do with their parents.

I've seen people come to the point where they become super dependent upon others for their daily needs.

Of course, these are extreme examples but I'm sure there are a quite a few examples, if you take a close, hard look.

My post though (which I edited out of this response for the sake of clarity/brevity), was mainly focused on drugs/alcohol as that truly is my A.O.

Look, anyone in any twelve step program will tell you: "if your (insert your addiction of choice, here) is not affecting your life in a negative way, that's great. We're behind you. We're here for the people whose lives are being affected by (insert your addiction of choice, here)."

Michael

_____________________________

We'll fight, not out of spite
For someone must stand up for what's right
'Cause where there's a man who has no voice
There ours shall go singing

(in reply to DaddySatyr)

RE: Can someone with 12-step experience give advice to ... - 12/6/2014 5:58:56 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha
I only skimmed the thread but I think LGH had some issue with the step that said you have to admit you are powerless over x, y z. Well geez you wouldn't be asking for help if you were not somewhat powerless over the issue at fault, right?

I don't think that's what she meant. It's what leads up to admitting you are powerless, when you got to give yourself up to the greater power which is a religious thing that is an Issue!

I hate all religions, so if 12 steps was anything spiritual or religious, it would make my skin crawl.

And there is no way, I can see GOD as acronyms for something else or see the group as the greater power. I don't believe in greater power than myself.

I believe that's how LGH feels as well, that the power is within herself to change this, and not some mystical or magical "greater" power that doesn't exist.

As for finding fellow friends for support, if everyone in there was religious and was treating greater power as a God. Then seriously, they aren't gonna be great support, because all ya gonna get is, "Give yourself into the holy spirit!", "I will pray for you!"

I just feel that any religious therapy is definitely alienating and not helping anybody who is not in that religion. It's like saying, "I admit I am powerless, give myself up to the magical leprechaun!"
And then you just feel like WTF crazy universe did you just stepped into?

I have attended many AA and NA meetings in the past and while some of the members were religious the majority of them were not. And no one really discussed religion so it didn't matter if you were in "that" religion or not. At the meetings they discussed things that had happened in their lives and what they were doing to change them and that rarely included anything religious. Now they do have the higher power but my first sponsor used a rock for her higher power and it worked fine for her. They provide a safe place to go and connect with people who are going through the same struggles as you and for some people that helps.
Now LGH may feel that she has the power in herself but if she does she isn't showing it here. And while OA may not help in her case I don't see how it could hurt her to go and see what it is about before deciding it won't.

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