quote:

ORIGINAL: experiment2

any sub who experiences a 40 % enjoyment rate has found a wonderful situation. i would gladly accept a 60% suffering for being the "s" in a Domme/s relationship. the primary role for a submissive is to please onse Mistress. if she allowed me the priviledge of 40% enjoyment, i would expect little more. why would i want more? the suffereing is pleasurable in its own way with the knowledge that your Mistress is getting Her enjoyment from my "suffering". am i missing something?

quote:

ORIGINAL: shiftyw

How are we defining suffering?

I mean I deal with pain in my relationship, but as a maso, I'm kinda into that. Suffering for me is pushing any limits, someone finding ways around my limits, and really like...I am willing to push myself for someone but I don't consider that suffering... I'm really someone who suffers rarely in my relationships.

quote:

ORIGINAL: InHisHeart

quote:

ORIGINAL: shiftyw

How are we defining suffering?

I mean I deal with pain in my relationship, but as a maso, I'm kinda into that. Suffering for me is pushing any limits, someone finding ways around my limits, and really like...I am willing to push myself for someone but I don't consider that suffering... I'm really someone who suffers rarely in my relationships.

That's where I'm confused over what suffering is. I don't see why anyone should or would suffer in a relationship. I'm a sub/maso so pain is not suffering to me and if I weren't a maso, I wouldn't be with a Dom who's a sadist. I'll go out of my way to please him, I'll do much more than what I'm comfortable with for him but I'm not suffering because of it. Suffering in a relationship to me would be if I'm unhappy in the relationship, if I'm not feeling fulfilled and content in the relationship and with my Dom. If I wasn't happy with my Dom and wasn't happy in the relationship then I'd leave. If I chose to stay then my suffering would be my own doing, not his. I don't see being submissive and suffering as something that goes hand in hand.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessManko

quote:

ORIGINAL: InHisHeart

That's where I'm confused over what suffering is. I don't see why anyone should or would suffer in a relationship....
Suffering in a relationship to me would be if I'm unhappy in the relationship, if I'm not feeling fulfilled and content in the relationship and with my Dom. If I wasn't happy with my Dom and wasn't happy in the relationship then I'd leave. If I chose to stay then my suffering would be my own doing, not his. I don't see being submissive and suffering as something that goes hand in hand.

Suffering in my mind could be "getting ignored" to doing a kink I enjoy obediently because it pleases me but it's not necessarily a favorite.
<snip>
To be fair, I think "suffering" was a word the sub on the other thread used because he knew he had no attraction to this woman whatsoever and yet wanted to get his kink fix anyway. Thankfully he did suffer as a result, the thought makes me all warm and fuzzy inside.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal

I see this tying into D/s couples who have a (humiliation &) punishment dynamic. Many of us don't have a punishment dynamic because we don't believe in suffering or causing others to suffer, and discipline or correction is not administered in the form of severe or corporal punishment.
That's probably why all of this suffering nonsense makes no sense to some of us.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal
If either side of the S&M equation believes that suffering has redemptive value, then please don't become a pet-owner. Animals don't deserve to be mistreated or neglected, and neither do humans.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal

Although GM meant "getting ignored" as putting aside fulfilling a sub's kink that's for his/her sake more than your own, looking at it from a wider panoramic angle, being ignored is one of the worst things a Dominant can do to a sub.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal
Referring back to what YouName spoke of in terms of redemption, there are those who are caught up in an atonement mentality. That they must atone for their (perceived) sins and misdeeds by suffering.
I see this tying into D/s couples who have a (humiliation &) punishment dynamic. Many of us don't have a punishment dynamic because we don't believe in suffering or causing others to suffer, and discipline or correction is not administered in the form of severe or corporal punishment.
That's probably why all of this suffering nonsense makes no sense to some of us. Redemptive objectives are to learn or teach a lesson. Having the willingness to suffer rather than being proactive only proves that one may a dissociative personality (disorder). Such an individual has numbed himself or herself and no longer integrates or is not capable of fully integrating feeling responses.

A dog can be trained to be obedient. Even dog trainers emphasize positive reinforcement, rather than negative. Otherwise, you can end up with a dog who turns on its owner.
If either side of the S&M equation believes that suffering has redemptive value, then please don't become a pet-owner. Animals don't deserve to be mistreated or neglected, and neither do humans.

Although GM meant "getting ignored" as putting aside fulfilling a sub's kink that's for his/her sake more than your own, looking at it from a wider panoramic angle, being ignored is one of the worst things a Dominant can do to a sub. In the vanilla world, there are insecure people who can't stand to be ignored and cannot thrive without attention, to the point of clinging neediness. Even the most secure and self-confident among us need affirmation from others periodically.
That may be the ultimate form of suffering - to be made to feel that you don't matter, that your contributions are insignificant - and that's a brand of (non-consensual) sadism that is particularly insidious.

On a lighter note, I'm not sadistic, but I'm also glad that wannabe slave dude says he suffered--served him right, in that what goes around, comes around.
(There is that part of me which believes in divine retribution and/or payback being a bitch.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: experiment2

any sub who experiences a 40 % enjoyment rate has found a wonderful situation. i would gladly accept a 60% suffering for being the "s" in a Domme/s relationship. the primary role for a submissive is to please onse Mistress. if she allowed me the priviledge of 40% enjoyment, i would expect little more. why would i want more? the suffereing is pleasurable in its own way with the knowledge that your Mistress is getting Her enjoyment from my "suffering". am i missing something?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

ORIGINAL: experiment2

any sub who experiences a 40 % enjoyment rate has found a wonderful situation. i would gladly accept a 60% suffering for being the "s" in a Domme/s relationship. the primary role for a submissive is to please onse Mistress. if she allowed me the priviledge of 40% enjoyment, i would expect little more. why would i want more? the suffereing is pleasurable in its own way with the knowledge that your Mistress is getting Her enjoyment from my "suffering". am i missing something?

Actually, according to your description, it sounds like in that situation, you are enjoying 100%, because you enjoy the sufferings as well.
But nothing wrong with that, it's perfect compatibility.

quote:

ORIGINAL: littleladybug

If I feel that I am "suffering" in any way, shape or form, I know that relationship is not the right one for me.
---
I believe this is one of the cruelest things that a Dom can do to a sub (that is, the general "being ignored"). It's one thing, IMO, to step back when upset or angry and try to regroup, and it's quite another to ignore someone as a sort of punishment or part of "training". To me, it shows a fundamental lack of compassion and maturity.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal

Perfect timing with your post, Greta!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

ORIGINAL: experiment2

any sub who experiences a 40 % enjoyment rate has found a wonderful situation. i would gladly accept a 60% suffering for being the "s" in a Domme/s relationship. the primary role for a submissive is to please onse Mistress. if she allowed me the priviledge of 40% enjoyment, i would expect little more. why would i want more? the suffereing is pleasurable in its own way with the knowledge that your Mistress is getting Her enjoyment from my "suffering". am i missing something?

Actually, according to your description, it sounds like in that situation, you are enjoying 100%, because you enjoy the sufferings as well.
But nothing wrong with that, it's perfect compatibility.

That's the whole gist of the matter, S&M compatibility in the BDSM. Further, just because an s-type-bottom is not a hard-core masochist, does not make him non-masochistic. There is mental sado-masochism, and if you look up "humiliation," which a large number of male (dunno about female, no experience there) subs are into - that whole "I'm a worthless pig-pathetic slavedog-lowly worm, unworthy to lick your boots" spiel/must eat slave gruel out of a dogbowl on the floor (in it's more extreme expressions) - this is considered to be a mild form of sadism (giving) and masochism (receiving). experiment2 does not identify as a masochist. Neither did my late husband, who was mainly into verbal humiliation. They do not enjoy physical pain, per se. I don't consider myself a sadist, and yet for me to be able to share in my husband's excitement (and recently with a close to 5-month long on-line relationship I ended last month), I had to come to terms with the realization that I am capable of being mentally sadistic with the right (mentally masochistic) partner as mild as it is/was. I will not go around calling myself a sadist, and I don't want a maso partner, but I'm not in denial about this either.

@GoddessManko, I know the bulk of your comments were directed to YouName. Nevertheless, it is not an indictment of sadists to point out that there has to be a corresponding compatibility, or else it's abuse and not BDSM that one is engaging in. That's the position I'm coming from, when enjoying the suffering of others becomes one-sided and isn't complementary in terms of reciprocity. Operating at varying levels and in varying degrees or intensities, one party may have a broader range of sadistic tendencies (as I believe might apply to you) while the other party has a limited range of masochistic tendencies. Not an outright mismatch, just not a perfect match. There are physical-sensation sado-masochists who are not into the mental aspect of sadism/masochism. Ideally, we would match up accordingly, but that is not always the case.

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: littleladybug

If I feel that I am "suffering" in any way, shape or form, I know that relationship is not the right one for me.
---
I believe this is one of the cruelest things that a Dom can do to a sub (that is, the general "being ignored"). It's one thing, IMO, to step back when upset or angry and try to regroup, and it's quite another to ignore someone as a sort of punishment or part of "training". To me, it shows a fundamental lack of compassion and maturity.

There are many forms of suffering, and causing non-consensual suffering is abusive behavior. Participating in non-consensual suffering displays a dysfunctional co-dependency with the abuser, which is all too frequent with D/s-M/s pairings.

[Edited for punctuation]

quote:

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal

There are many forms of suffering, and causing non-consensual suffering is abusive behavior. Participating in non-consensual suffering displays a dysfunctional co-dependency with the abuser.

quote:

ORIGINAL: littleladybug

quote:

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal

There are many forms of suffering, and causing non-consensual suffering is abusive behavior. Participating in non-consensual suffering displays a dysfunctional co-dependency with the abuser.

Yes.

One of the biggest issues that I had initially was defining "consent" in this context. How far was *I* willing and able to go to please the person I was with? And, most importantly, how far did I *want* to go? Those were incredibly hard questions for me to answer.

Over the course of time, I've figured out what makes me tick as a sub (for the most part-- I'm still a work in progress...). My man laughs when he reads my posts claiming that I'm not a "masochist". It's all relative, of course...but the point for me is that I've come to the point where I see the "line", and I see, for me, where my consent begins and ends. This is a "hot button" issue for me because I know what I went through to get to this point, and I know that I'm not alone. Of course, people do what they do, and if it's consensual, have at it. Full and informed consent to *whatever* is not what I"m speaking about here.

Back about 10 years ago, I was with a guy who enjoyed leaving marks. And by "enjoyed leaving marks", I mean literal welts that lasted for days. I found, over the course of the time that I was with him, that I absolutely *dreaded* when I saw that cane come out. And not any sort of "good dread". I got to the point where "enough was enough", and thought long and hard about where *my* lines were. Yes, I consented to this and I'm not labelling him an "abuser". At the end of the day, it was where *my* lines were...and I knew I had to define them more clearly.

I'm not trying to speak for "all" here, not at all. I just know what my experiences were, and I know that I am not alone in them. My pollyanna glasses are on now, and I'm speaking perhaps to the person who is just lurking. One of the most important things that I've learned over the years is that just because it's what "the Dom wants" doesn't necessarily make it the best thing for me. Yes, it's about compatibility. One hundred percent. I want to please....I *live* to please....but I also know that "getting a beating" is NOT part of that, for me.

If "suffering" or *whatever* is your bag, have at it. But, take time to really think about it.

As an aside...I still have that freaking cane. Just as a reminder of how far I have come....

quote:

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal


I can understand where the desire to please comes from, but I can't condone their going-through-the-motions or feeling a dutiful obligation to prove their obedience without getting a deep-seated satisfaction or gratification out of doing so. From this side of the kneel, I'm doing this >scratching head<.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal


I can understand where the desire to please comes from, but I can't condone their going-through-the-motions or feeling a dutiful obligation to prove their obedience without getting a deep-seated satisfaction or gratification out of doing so. From this side of the kneel, I'm doing this >scratching head<.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha



In another thread a sub (bottom?) was lamenting 3-day playtime with a femdom and how when looking back, he only enjoyed 40% of the playtime, and the other 60% was suffering. And he wasn't that attracted to her also.

If other subs look at this equation and think he is deserving of 100% enjoyment or 80% enjoyment and 20% "suffering" I have to ask -- what do you think sadistic, dominant women are? Taking just 'power exchange' out of the equation for a moment -- looking at women into S&m, there must be some understanding that we women are actually -- well, sadistic.

Granted, there's a difference between cruelty and sensual sadism. I enjoy making a man suffer so long as he does so willingly for me. If a sub comes to me with a whole plateful of "suffering" he "wants" to endure (hence, the 40% this sub enjoyed, for example) then I am just someone delivering a service - may as well be giving him a massage. How does this scratch the sadistic itch?

For all of those subs that claim they cannot find an authentic woman into S&m -- remember, they exist but they are INTO S&M! That means you have to suffer now and then because that's what gets many of us off.

The disconnect comes from lack of chemistry. When a man (he can even be vanilla) is sensually, sexually attracted to a woman and is made to endure something challenging, painful or humiliating and he sees that this turns her on, this becomes the reward. He does not enjoy the act, but he enjoys the outcome. This is where the dance works. My feeling is that this particular situation fell apart because he wasn't that into the woman, and she perhaps was not providing the right feedback (ie, sitting on his face when she was wet -- "see how much your degradation or grunt work gets me off?" -- or more subtle, "good boy - you make me VERY happy").

Akasha