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RE: Subs: Enjoying 40% and suffering 60%? You're spoiled - 12/11/2014 2:10:42 AM

YouName

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RE: Subs: Enjoying 40% and suffering 60%? You're spoiled - 12/11/2014 9:06:18 AM

rokkman7456

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessManko

quote:

ORIGINAL: experiment2

any sub who experiences a 40 % enjoyment rate has found a wonderful situation. i would gladly accept a 60% suffering for being the "s" in a Domme/s relationship. the primary role for a submissive is to please onse Mistress. if she allowed me the priviledge of 40% enjoyment, i would expect little more. why would i want more? the suffereing is pleasurable in its own way with the knowledge that your Mistress is getting Her enjoyment from my "suffering". am i missing something?

OK, serious question. Where can we clone you? Thanks, LOL.

No need to clone there are a few of us out there like this.

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RE: Subs: Enjoying 40% and suffering 60%? You're spoiled - 12/11/2014 9:49:53 AM

InHisHeart

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessManko

This is definitely a fair question. Suffering in my mind could be "getting ignored" to doing a kink I enjoy obediently because it pleases me but it's not necessarily a favorite. There's not always going to be "comfortable" moments in a dynamic with me. Period. It's just going to happen. But to be willing to "explore" with me despite that and for my sub to do things in an almost altruistic sense, is pretty impressive vs. being only concerned with self interest/kink fulfillment. To be fair, I think "suffering" was a word the sub on the other thread used because he knew he had no attraction to this woman whatsoever and yet wanted to get his kink fix anyway. Thankfully he did suffer as a result, the thought makes me all warm and fuzzy inside.

I agree, I don't expect everything to be comfortable for me all the time but that to me isn't suffering at all. Hell I don't expect things to be comfortable all the time in any part of my life. Just my opinion but my thoughts are if a sub is suffering, she/he either enjoys suffering (if so, is that suffering?) or my other thought is that person is too dependent on having a Dom/me and maybe is settling for "better than nothing". I love being in a relationship, I love being in a D/s relationship but only with the right Dom and if that relationship is right for me. I don't "need" a relationship, I'm content and happy on my own, having a Dom and relationship is a bonus in my life so if I ever found myself suffering in a relationship, I'm gone.

I define suffering as badly hurting physically or emotionally by means of something you have no or little control over.

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RE: Subs: Enjoying 40% and suffering 60%? You're spoiled - 12/11/2014 1:52:30 PM

def411

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You seem appropriately sadistic...

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RE: Subs: Enjoying 40% and suffering 60%? You're spoiled - 12/11/2014 7:57:31 PM

cloudboy

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Not directly on-point, but the HBO show HELLO LADIES kind of explored this subject.

The main character is a tall, thin, mostly insufferable BRIT (STUART) trying to date LA ladies well out of his league. (Super Models.) So, you get to watch 10 episodes of him bombing with women, humiliating himself, and making bad choices.

Anyway, the undesirable, annoying, shallow man going on a series of bad dates proved a box-office loser and the show was cancelled after the first season. (HBO has really slipped from it's once lofty pedestal.) But I would say this show had virtues. (Mixed)

The series was capped off by wrap up HBO movie. In the Movie Stuart wakes up and finds himself. In the end he says to the woman he loves, (who does not love him in return)

"You know what I think it’s about? Love? Percentages. Look at you and me, 18% of the time you drove me crazy- I mean fucking insane alright? But 82% of the time I had more fun with you than anyone. ever. And that was good enough for me."

(This was a really well-set-up scene, and it super-popped romantically. He didn't say this to win or get the girl, he said it because it was honest, from the heart, and discovered after experiencing a lot of pain.)

Now I agree, love and relationships are about percentages.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 12/11/2014 7:59:17 PM >

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RE: Subs: Enjoying 40% and suffering 60%? You're spoiled - 12/12/2014 3:13:50 AM

NookieNotes

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
"You know what I think it’s about? Love? Percentages. Look at you and me, 18% of the time you drove me crazy- I mean fucking insane alright? But 82% of the time I had more fun with you than anyone. ever. And that was good enough for me."

Suspiciously close to Pareto's principal, yeah?

I understand the point, but nearly 20% of being driven crazy would NOT fork for me. That's one day out of five of turmoil in my life.

And that one day causing 4 days' worth of strife (according to Pareto, if it holds).

No thank you.

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RE: Subs: Enjoying 40% and suffering 60%? You're spoiled - 12/12/2014 10:14:34 AM

AAkasha

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NookieNotes

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
"You know what I think it’s about? Love? Percentages. Look at you and me, 18% of the time you drove me crazy- I mean fucking insane alright? But 82% of the time I had more fun with you than anyone. ever. And that was good enough for me."

Suspiciously close to Pareto's principal, yeah?

I understand the point, but nearly 20% of being driven crazy would NOT fork for me. That's one day out of five of turmoil in my life.

And that one day causing 4 days' worth of strife (according to Pareto, if it holds).

No thank you.

Yeah I would have to agree here, I think this is apples and oranges. Being 'driven crazy' (or any level of emotional dissatisfaction that bleeds into the entire relationship as a whole) is a way bigger deal.

Couples/partners make sacrifices in bed all the time. Women give blow jobs who hate to give blow jobs, but they do it because they are nuts about their man and loves how it turns him on. Vanilla women who give blow jobs don't lament, "I am only satisfied in bed 50% of the time, the other half when I am giving blowjobs I am really having a shitty time -- woe is me."

It comes down to chemistry. In the case here, the guy wasn't invested emotionally or sensually in the woman, so got no pleasure from acts that required him to endure for her sexual or sensual pleasure. I call it the "love/hate" view of some acts. This is like my own caviar or fine candy: Acts a man would NOT typically endure, but he does it WILLINGLY for me (and only me, because he is into me -- he is not feverishly seeking out any woman to make him "do it" -- it is not "force me to do all the things I want to do anyway").

My role is to make sure the reward is bigger than the suffering so his submission switches are all flipped -- bigtime. I learned this from "making" vanilla guys submit when I was younger. "You want me to do WHAT???" -- well, all was just fine when he built up the courage to do it, then said later, "oh my god, that made you so hot, I would NEVER do that for anyone...and I can't believe I did it, but wow, I would do it again....well, I would have to work up to it, but yeah."

Then, later, he would say "I admit I kind of fantasized about that act again even though I go no pleasure out of it...just seeing what it did to you was amazing."

What I am getting at is there's a tendency for a submissive (or bottom) to view acts in a totally selfish way. Instead of either a compromise, or understanding WHAT a "sadistic" woman needs and wants. If you want a woman who knows how to do kink, expect that she may be sadistic. On the other end, lots of subs complain "She does the stuff but doesn't seem into it." Again, they don't quite understand that a sadistic woman (and we all range on the spectrum from 'controlling' to 'dominant' to 'playfully dominant' to 'a little sadistic' to "wildly sadistic' - you name it) has HER OWN needs.

And this sometimes means sucking it up and enduring acts you do not find pleasurable. If is the femdom's responsibility to package these experiences in a way that you feel rewarded -- or. aroused.

If there is no sensual, sexual or intimate chemistry, it will fall flat no matter what.

Or if the femdom doesn't enjoy it and is just going through the motions and yawning and distracted.

When I 'make" a guy do something he may find unthinkable, it's because my sadistic side is literally aching to see how he endures it. Just talking about it gets me hot. This usually motivates him enough, and submissive men or bottoms get a charge out of this kind of thing.

Akasha

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RE: Subs: Enjoying 40% and suffering 60%? You're spoiled - 12/12/2014 11:11:24 AM

Arturas

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

In another thread a sub (bottom?) was lamenting 3-day playtime with a femdom and how when looking back, he only enjoyed 40% of the playtime, and the other 60% was suffering. And he wasn't that attracted to her also.

If other subs look at this equation and think he is deserving of 100% enjoyment or 80% enjoyment and 20% "suffering" I have to ask -- what do you think sadistic, dominant women are? Taking just 'power exchange' out of the equation for a moment -- looking at women into S&m, there must be some understanding that we women are actually -- well, sadistic.

Granted, there's a difference between cruelty and sensual sadism. I enjoy making a man suffer so long as he does so willingly for me. If a sub comes to me with a whole plateful of "suffering" he "wants" to endure (hence, the 40% this sub enjoyed, for example) then I am just someone delivering a service - may as well be giving him a massage. How does this scratch the sadistic itch?

For all of those subs that claim they cannot find an authentic woman into S&m -- remember, they exist but they are INTO S&M! That means you have to suffer now and then because that's what gets many of us off.

The disconnect comes from lack of chemistry. When a man (he can even be vanilla) is sensually, sexually attracted to a woman and is made to endure something challenging, painful or humiliating and he sees that this turns her on, this becomes the reward. He does not enjoy the act, but he enjoys the outcome. This is where the dance works. My feeling is that this particular situation fell apart because he wasn't that into the woman, and she perhaps was not providing the right feedback (ie, sitting on his face when she was wet -- "see how much your degradation or grunt work gets me off?" -- or more subtle, "good boy - you make me VERY happy").

Akasha

He is a "bottom". Temporarly attempting to get pleasure from the interaction. Furthur, your description is of a man topping from the bottom, in control while playing a role, pretending to be a sub to get what he wants. He is not a sub. The sub is not in control and does not wish to be.

A "sub" needs to be controlled. Have you not seen a submissive perform as she really is and as the tears flow kiss and lick the fingers of the hand that caused her tears to begin with? Ah the submissive. A true one. Is it hard for women to find real submissives? I suspect so.

P.S. Does the S&M submissive enjoy 100% of the session? Both the whip and the feather? The hot wax and the soft touch and passionate kiss? I am certain they do.

< Message edited by Arturas -- 12/12/2014 11:16:28 AM >

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RE: Subs: Enjoying 40% and suffering 60%? You're spoiled - 12/12/2014 11:22:17 AM

Arturas

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quote:

If there is no sensual, sexual or intimate chemistry, it will fall flat no matter what.

Or if the femdom doesn't enjoy it and is just going through the motions and yawning and distracted.

For you this is true. For me this is true, I only have one submissive and never have used my whip on any other by choice, but this is not true, I'm sure you agree, with all Doms, male or female. You only have to observe what goes on in a club to see many Doms are into this as a way of expressing their creativity and artistry. The Shibari practitioner comes to mind. The needle play artist comes to mind.

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RE: Subs: Enjoying 40% and suffering 60%? You're spoiled - 12/12/2014 7:57:07 PM

LookieNoNookie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

In another thread a sub (bottom?) was lamenting 3-day playtime with a femdom and how when looking back, he only enjoyed 40% of the playtime, and the other 60% was suffering. And he wasn't that attracted to her also.

If other subs look at this equation and think he is deserving of 100% enjoyment or 80% enjoyment and 20% "suffering" I have to ask -- what do you think sadistic, dominant women are? Taking just 'power exchange' out of the equation for a moment -- looking at women into S&m, there must be some understanding that we women are actually -- well, sadistic.

Granted, there's a difference between cruelty and sensual sadism. I enjoy making a man suffer so long as he does so willingly for me. If a sub comes to me with a whole plateful of "suffering" he "wants" to endure (hence, the 40% this sub enjoyed, for example) then I am just someone delivering a service - may as well be giving him a massage. How does this scratch the sadistic itch?

For all of those subs that claim they cannot find an authentic woman into S&m -- remember, they exist but they are INTO S&M! That means you have to suffer now and then because that's what gets many of us off.

The disconnect comes from lack of chemistry. When a man (he can even be vanilla) is sensually, sexually attracted to a woman and is made to endure something challenging, painful or humiliating and he sees that this turns her on, this becomes the reward. He does not enjoy the act, but he enjoys the outcome. This is where the dance works. My feeling is that this particular situation fell apart because he wasn't that into the woman, and she perhaps was not providing the right feedback (ie, sitting on his face when she was wet -- "see how much your degradation or grunt work gets me off?" -- or more subtle, "good boy - you make me VERY happy").

Akasha

I disagree....with Verve!

There are women who want a whole relationship with a man and.....that (for them) is a supplicant relationship. There are also women who want an entire dominant relationship with a man but it's a mix....not supplicant....not subservient but....substantially in supplication with....equality.

Seeing it as a % (as a constant) is a fallacy. A relationship for some mandates change....variance....acceptance.

Difference.

People.

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RE: Subs: Enjoying 40% and suffering 60%? You're spoiled - 12/13/2014 12:28:04 AM

FieryOpal

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[Parsed In-Quote]

quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha
<snip>
Granted, there's a difference between cruelty and sensual sadism. I enjoy making a man suffer so long as he does so willingly for me. If a sub comes to me with a whole plateful of "suffering" he "wants" to endure (hence, the 40% this sub enjoyed, for example) then I am just someone delivering a service - may as well be giving him a massage. How does this scratch the sadistic itch?
<snip>

I disagree....with Verve!

There are women who want a whole relationship with a man and.....that (for them) is a supplicant relationship. There are also women who want an entire dominant relationship with a man but it's a mix....not supplicant....not subservient but....substantially in supplication with....equality.

Seeing it as a % (as a constant) is a fallacy. A relationship for some mandates change....variance....acceptance.

Difference.

People.

I'll have to remember that, Lookie, for future reference. Supplicant relationship. I like that better than subservient, which denotes obsequiousness. If a man has to suffer in order to please me, I don't want his suffering; his desire to please me should be his joy, not the bane of his existence. But then, I'm not a Sadist.

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RE: Subs: Enjoying 40% and suffering 60%? You're spoiled - 12/13/2014 1:17:41 AM

YouName

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Thanks, that's a new one.

It's interesting to note how many synonyms and degrees there are in to describe rank or hierarchy and its protocols. Reminds me a little bit about this story and exchange that must've happened there. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/08/korean-air-executive-nuts-cho-hyun-ah-flight-attendant
Although she (the CEO) ended up asking for forgiveness and her father pleading for it.

I like the place supplicate takes between beseeching and begging.
Mind its apparent religious history.

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RE: Subs: Enjoying 40% and suffering 60%? You're spoiled - 12/13/2014 4:48:06 AM

PeonForHer

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quote:

And he wasn't that attracted to her also.

That would change everything, for me.

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RE: Subs: Enjoying 40% and suffering 60%? You're spoiled - 12/13/2014 3:45:29 PM

cloudboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NookieNotes

Suspiciously close to Pareto's principal, yeah?

I understand the point, but nearly 20% of being driven crazy would NOT fork for me. That's one day out of five of turmoil in my life.

And that one day causing 4 days' worth of strife (according to Pareto, if it holds).

No thank you.

In the show, the character is making a positive, spontaneous declaration of love -- the thrust of which is "my beloved does not have to be perfect" or "the one." The message is one of accepting some differences / problems in return for the much greater rewards that the beloved offers.

In this particular scene what was even more important was how the Character was not trying to win his beloved's interest or heart --- which in this case was huge, because he used to always act manipulatively.

In sum the principle is closer to "the PERFECT is the enemy of the good" than Pareto's Principle. Thanks for the observation, I had never heard of this principle before.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 12/13/2014 3:50:03 PM >

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RE: Subs: Enjoying 40% and suffering 60%? You're spoiled - 12/13/2014 4:24:12 PM

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This was going to be first post in this thread. I re-thought it and now, I wish I hadn't.

This is to no one, particularly it's just a real head-scratcher.

We talk about "negotiation" and even I mentioned that I tend to look for ladies who limitations meet my expectations.

That said; if you're getting everything the way you want it, if you're not "suffering" (mind the quotation marks), what the blue fuck are you submitting to?

Where does this become a situation like my step-dad, having a plaque on his boat that read: "I'm the captain of this ship and I have my wife's permission to say so"?

Michael

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RE: Subs: Enjoying 40% and suffering 60%? You're spoiled - 12/13/2014 4:58:29 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

"I'm the captain of this ship and I have my wife's permission to say so"

LOVE that! Also the variation "I am the Head of This Household, and I have my wife's permission to say so" comes to mind.

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RE: Subs: Enjoying 40% and suffering 60%? You're spoiled - 12/14/2014 10:13:29 AM

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I believe the question here is "You are suffering, yes. But are you happy with that suffering?" Some might say yes, some might say no. Neither are the wrong answer.

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RE: Subs: Enjoying 40% and suffering 60%? You're spoiled - 12/14/2014 10:57:55 AM

NookieNotes

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: NookieNotes

Suspiciously close to Pareto's principal, yeah?

I understand the point, but nearly 20% of being driven crazy would NOT fork for me. That's one day out of five of turmoil in my life.

And that one day causing 4 days' worth of strife (according to Pareto, if it holds).

No thank you.

In the show, the character is making a positive, spontaneous declaration of love -- the thrust of which is "my beloved does not have to be perfect" or "the one." The message is one of accepting some differences / problems in return for the much greater rewards that the beloved offers.

To be clear, I was not stating that he was making reference to the principle, nor that he was intending that result.

Just that if 20% was being drivin crazy, I'm guess that was about 80% of the trouble int he relationship, and vice versa.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessManko

I believe the question here is "You are suffering, yes. But are you happy with that suffering?" Some might say yes, some might say no. Neither are the wrong answer.

True.

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RE: Subs: Enjoying 40% and suffering 60%? You're spoiled - 12/14/2014 1:48:05 PM

AAkasha

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NookieNotes

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: NookieNotes

Suspiciously close to Pareto's principal, yeah?

I understand the point, but nearly 20% of being driven crazy would NOT fork for me. That's one day out of five of turmoil in my life.

And that one day causing 4 days' worth of strife (according to Pareto, if it holds).

No thank you.

In the show, the character is making a positive, spontaneous declaration of love -- the thrust of which is "my beloved does not have to be perfect" or "the one." The message is one of accepting some differences / problems in return for the much greater rewards that the beloved offers.

To be clear, I was not stating that he was making reference to the principle, nor that he was intending that result.

Just that if 20% was being drivin crazy, I'm guess that was about 80% of the trouble int he relationship, and vice versa.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GoddessManko

I believe the question here is "You are suffering, yes. But are you happy with that suffering?" Some might say yes, some might say no. Neither are the wrong answer.

True.

A lot of femdoms just go through the motions of sadism or engage in a series of "acts" they they understand subs desire or want.

I knew I was sadistic before I knew what S&M was. But I was also ethical and full of empathy. And I didn't have to make a man suffer A TON, just enough to show he was surrendering to me. It could be just slightly outside of his comfort zone, and I was in glee.

But I figured out the only way to motivate a man to endure was through seduction, sensuality, positive feedback, or finding out what pushed HIS buttons and using that to motivate him.

It seems as though some people see 'sadism' as a totally selfish means to an end that leaves a man as a used and useless object and once the sadist's needs are met she can kick him to the curb or not care in the least about his emotional or physical well being. Nothing could be further from the truth. A man that can make me feel *that* kind of arousal from surrender is a treasure and treated as such, so I can hold on to him and keep him motivated to do it again.

So much is about seduction, patience, sensuality. And a ton of erotic undertones, as well as appealing to the male ego and desire to satisfy his woman. I want that surrender THAT bad that I unknowingly spent a lot of time figuring out how I could get it without making a guy feel 'used'.

Again, I come back to what I really enjoy hearing after. When a man says, "I didn't enjoy that. But I loved what it did to you. I would NEVER submit to that for anyone but you."

Akasha

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RE: Subs: Enjoying 40% and suffering 60%? You're spoiled - 12/14/2014 3:06:59 PM

NookieNotes

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha
A lot of femdoms just go through the motions of sadism or engage in a series of "acts" they they understand subs desire or want.

Agreed.

quote:

But I was also ethical and full of empathy. And I didn't have to make a man suffer A TON, just enough to show he was surrendering to me. It could be just slightly outside of his comfort zone, and I was in glee.

But I figured out the only way to motivate a man to endure was through seduction, sensuality, positive feedback, or finding out what pushed HIS buttons and using that to motivate him.

I agree with this as well.

I removed your part about sadism, because I don't believe I'm sadistic. The suffering I enjoy is ONLY what he does for me, out of trust, and only when I feel I have done it well, bringing a new level/dimension to what we have.

I think of myself and my dominance more as being an architect of a relationship. The physical stuff I only need to push and make points, while the mental aspects I revel and play in like a kid in a candy store.

I love hearing things like, "But you never SAID... oh. I see what you did." It's usually said sheepishly, when their idea's seeds are pointed out to them as having come from me.

I love shaping a mind.

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