quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
the guy who brings a firearm to a fistfight or to challenge a lost Alzheimer's man wandering on his property is a form coward or paranoid personality.

Well then, I guess all the people who kick your ass in these debates must be either cowards or paranoid personalities.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

And yet, when you seek to join the sole point -- the only one of all that they even mention -- is the urgent political action to stop the boogie men. NOTHING about the importance of the other work or programs. And as you noted, once you join, they continue to push this sole point often with requests for further donations.

When's the last time you saw the NRA promoting anything but that political agenda?

That's the point. The rest is the legacy from the days when the NRA was indeed an association of rifle owners.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

And yet, when you seek to join the sole point -- the only one of all that they even mention -- is the urgent political action to stop the boogie men. NOTHING about the importance of the other work or programs. And as you noted, once you join, they continue to push this sole point often with requests for further donations.

When's the last time you saw the NRA promoting anything but that political agenda?

That's the point. The rest is the legacy from the days when the NRA was indeed an association of rifle owners.

quote:

Musicmystery
That's not it, lm. The NRA itself makes clear its prime objective is political action against a boogie man.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin
You only see the political action side of things because that's what makes headlines.

quote:

Musicmystery
When I see an NRA fronting for gun safety and happier hunting and free markets and true 2nd amendment rights, your words will hold some truth. Until then, they're just repeating the party line, and frankly, in denial of reality, giving the actions of the NRA and the industry in the real world.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin
Even the articles you linked to don't definitively state, nor do they prove your notion that the NRA is an arm of the gun industry. Your notion is just the latest NRA bashing talking points. Just because the unabashedly biased pompous asshole Josh Sugarman says so simply because the NRA gets money from the industry, does not make it true.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin
I can just imagine this conversation.

Gun industry to NRA: "Here's millions of dollars to help line your coffers".

NRA to gun industry: "Oh we can't take that money, the likes of Josh Sugarman might say we're a virtual subsidiary of the gun industry".

Fuck yes they're going to take the money. Are you fuckin kidding me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin
From your article in The Atlantic:

"So who does the NRA speak for, again? The answer is: lots of people. Hard-core gun-devotees, frightened conservatives, its own well-paid leaders, gun makers, and ammo retailers all play into the mix. It would be reductive to call it a mere corporate lobbyist. But in any event, it's clear the NRA isn't just representing your average Joe Six-Shooter."

A wee bit of balance there but they left out 10's of millions of sportsman, collectors and enthusiasts.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin
In the same article they listed the amount donated by the gun industry in 2010. While significant it doesn't come close to the combined amounts donated by members, wealthy benefactors, advertising sales and other sources.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin
IMO, protecting the interests of the gun industry and protecting the Second Amendment rights for all Americans are one and the same.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin
You only see the political action side of things because that's what makes headlines.

Including the NRA's own headlines.

Ever bemoan how Congress is controlled by outside money?

Or that businesses appear to be motivated by maximizing profit?

Why do you think the NRA is immune from outside money control?

Where is the NRA on these incidents? Defending against their boogie man.

Why isn't the NRA calling for fixing this flaw? Why isn't the NRA rolling out reminders about safety?

You know why. That's not their focus, and hasn't been since the 1980s.

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin
Even the articles you linked to don't definitively state, nor do they prove your notion that the NRA is an arm of the gun industry. Your notion is just the latest NRA bashing talking points. Just because the unabashedly biased pompous asshole Josh Sugarman says so simply because the NRA gets money from the industry, does not make it true.

Each industry in the country is represented by a lobbying group. The Oil and Gas have a few, so does retail, and automakers. For the firearm industry, the NRA is their lobbying group. The NRA enters into court cases when the out come serves the gun industry. Which is why it supported Mr. Heller in the case, Heller vs. D.C. If the NRA was truly supporting the common citizen with a firearm in a court case, and not the firearm industry. Please explain why they were absence in support (directly speaking) of Mr. George Zimmerman and Mr. Michael Dunn. Two characters whom used firearms in unlawful ways. Only one of them is now serving jail time.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin
I can just imagine this conversation.

Gun industry to NRA: "Here's millions of dollars to help line your coffers".

NRA to gun industry: "Oh we can't take that money, the likes of Josh Sugarman might say we're a virtual subsidiary of the gun industry".

Fuck yes they're going to take the money. Are you fuckin kidding me.

Crooked and corrupted politicians will take money from anyone. The ones that try to be and stay honest, will question the origins of the funding and ask 'What will this group demand of us for such a donation'? The NRA does not care about America, her citizens, or the damage caused from the misuse of firearms. Only what the gun industry tells them to be concern on.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin
From your article in The Atlantic:

"So who does the NRA speak for, again? The answer is: lots of people. Hard-core gun-devotees, frightened conservatives, its own well-paid leaders, gun makers, and ammo retailers all play into the mix. It would be reductive to call it a mere corporate lobbyist. But in any event, it's clear the NRA isn't just representing your average Joe Six-Shooter."

A wee bit of balance there but they left out 10's of millions of sportsman, collectors and enthusiasts.

Got a source for this information? From a non partisan site if you could please....

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin
In the same article they listed the amount donated by the gun industry in 2010. While significant it doesn't come close to the combined amounts donated by members, wealthy benefactors, advertising sales and other sources.

Yes, because 'honesty' is a virtue the NRA is often accused on, right? How about a full disclosure of their books? And the super PAC's that support them? Funny how conservatives often complain about the government holding secrets; yet their organizations, which operate like government's in their own right, try to keep everything hidden and under wraps. Can you say 'Hypocrites'?

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin
IMO, protecting the interests of the gun industry and protecting the Second Amendment rights for all Americans are one and the same.

Funny how the 2nd amendment is the most corrupted law in the nation. That we ignore the first half and reinterpete the second half anyways we want. Should we not be surprised by the problems it causes? Look at the 7th amendment. How often does that come up anymore? Do you even know what the 7th amendment actually is? No, of course not. You couldn't rattle off the five parts of the 1st amendment without looking them up. Dont bother opening your mouth on the 2nd!

I find it curious that when I ask the same individuals that support the corrupted version of the 2nd amendment, if they are 'ok', if people do the same to the 8th amendment, NONE of them are 'ok' with it. You know, we ignore the first half of the 8th and reinterpret the second have anyway we want. If its not 'ok' to do that with the 8th, and not 'ok' on twenty-five other amendments. Then its CERTAINLY, not 'ok', to do that on the 2nd. Yes, it got corrupted in the Heller verse D.C. case. The US Supreme Court Justices (the five conservative ones at that), did an end-run-around the 2nd amendment. Which branch of the federal system is allowed to reinterpret the definitions of amendments under the US Constitution? The Legislative. Usually the Supreme Court enters into issues when the lower court and the appellate courts have issues. But in Heller vs. D.C., both courts were in agreement. Mr. Heller didn't have an argument that the 2nd was being violated by D.C.'s firearm laws.

Yes, the first half of the amendment explains....WHO....has a Constitutional right to firearms and....WHY. The second half's meaning is lost on people for not understnading 18th century viewpoints. But instead, inserting 20th and 21st century propaganda. You know, the stuff coming out of the NRA....

Now what does the NRA gain by keeping American's clueless to the 2nd? Support for doing the gun industry's lobbying for pennies on the dollar. The Oil and Gas industry has to pay a pile of money for their lobbyist. But the gun industry has successfully pulled the wool over the sheep's eyes, and masquerade itself 'the defender of the 2nd amendment'. If you disbelieve me, go look into all the court cases the NRA has directly and indirectly supported. How many of those cases helped the individual on trial, but NOT, the gun industry? None of them. That should tell you something of which cases the NRA enters into and helps defend.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin
You only see the political action side of things because that's what makes headlines.

Including the NRA's own headlines. So what, big deal, why would I give a fuck about that?


Ever bemoan how Congress is controlled by outside money? Yes


Or that businesses appear to be motivated by maximizing profit? No, why shouldn't businesses maximize their profits and what does that have to do with what we're talkin about?


Why do you think the NRA is immune from outside money control? I don't understand the the question but probably don't give a fuck.


Where is the NRA on these incidents? Defending against their boogie man. What incidents ? What boogie man?


Why isn't the NRA calling for fixing this flaw?I don't know. How do you know they are not?Why isn't the NRA rolling out reminders about safety?They do


You know why. That's not their focus, and hasn't been since the 1980s. I don't know why if in fact there is any basis in reality in your rhetorical questions and neither do you. The NRA focuses on all kinds of stuff

What else ya got ??

quote:

BamaD
I will mention only the most absurd part of this post.
They militia is everyone.
By federal law it is every male between 18 and 54.
They can be called up whether they have been attending drills or not.
They need to be familiar with firearms.
To do so they have to have them.
The right to bear arms is a right, not a privilege of militiamen.
You have even admitted that the writers specifically stated that it was an individual right not tied to membership in a militia.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin
You only see the political action side of things because that's what makes headlines.

Including the NRA's own headlines. So what, big deal, why would I give a fuck about that?


Ever bemoan how Congress is controlled by outside money? Yes


Or that businesses appear to be motivated by maximizing profit? No, why shouldn't businesses maximize their profits and what does that have to do with what we're talkin about?


Why do you think the NRA is immune from outside money control? I don't understand the the question but probably don't give a fuck.


Where is the NRA on these incidents? Defending against their boogie man. What incidents ? What boogie man?


Why isn't the NRA calling for fixing this flaw?I don't know. How do you know they are not?Why isn't the NRA rolling out reminders about safety?They do


You know why. That's not their focus, and hasn't been since the 1980s. I don't know why if in fact there is any basis in reality in your rhetorical questions and neither do you. The NRA focuses on all kinds of stuff

What else ya got ??

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

No factual refutation, I see.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin
You only see the political action side of things because that's what makes headlines.

Including the NRA's own headlines. So what, big deal, why would I give a fuck about that?


Ever bemoan how Congress is controlled by outside money? Yes


Or that businesses appear to be motivated by maximizing profit? No, why shouldn't businesses maximize their profits and what does that have to do with what we're talkin about?


Why do you think the NRA is immune from outside money control? I don't understand the the question but probably don't give a fuck.


Where is the NRA on these incidents? Defending against their boogie man. What incidents ? What boogie man?


Why isn't the NRA calling for fixing this flaw?I don't know. How do you know they are not?Why isn't the NRA rolling out reminders about safety?They do


You know why. That's not their focus, and hasn't been since the 1980s. I don't know why if in fact there is any basis in reality in your rhetorical questions and neither do you. The NRA focuses on all kinds of stuff

What else ya got ??

Well, you don't seem to be able to point to any evidence of these claims, and simply dismiss the ones you don't care to answer. Hardly convincing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

No factual refutation, I see.

I found and entire site from the NRA site on their training programs all you have to do is go to their site and click on training.
Is that not a factual refutation because you don't like it?
You can pretend that it doesn't prove anything all you want but that doesn't mean it is true.
And what about all the information lovmuffin provided isn't that factual refutation.
Each of us has destroyed your lie.
What do we have to do, take you to a safety class?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin
You only see the political action side of things because that's what makes headlines.

Including the NRA's own headlines.

Ever bemoan how Congress is controlled by outside money?

Or that businesses appear to be motivated by maximizing profit?

Why do you think the NRA is immune from outside money control?

Where is the NRA on these incidents? Defending against their boogie man.

Why isn't the NRA calling for fixing this flaw? Why isn't the NRA rolling out reminders about safety?

You know why. That's not their focus, and hasn't been since the 1980s.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin
You only see the political action side of things because that's what makes headlines.

Including the NRA's own headlines. So what, big deal, why would I give a fuck about that?
I know you don't give a fuck. But it speaks directly to what I'm pointing out to you. You can decide to ignore it, or to not give a fuck, but that doesn't change reality.

Ever bemoan how Congress is controlled by outside money? Yes


Or that businesses appear to be motivated by maximizing profit? No, why shouldn't businesses maximize their profits and what does that have to do with what we're talkin about?
I've no problem with business profit either. Following a thread here -- it speaks to motivation and financial control.

Why do you think the NRA is immune from outside money control? I don't understand the the question but probably don't give a fuck.
Again, I know you don't give a fuck. But this is entirely the claim. Not giving a fuck isn't equivalent to counter-argument or contrary evidence. The money calls the tune. And that may be fine, the implication of the previous question, but nonetheless, that's reality.


Where is the NRA on these incidents? Defending against their boogie man. What incidents ? What boogie man?
Hmmm. You may have noticed these in the course of this thread, beaten over and over again long after the horse was dead. See post one for the first. The second is the NRA's straw man characterization of people working tirelessly right now to confiscate all guns (not my exaggeration -- that's precisely what they say as the reason to join the NRA, in that language). If you aren't really following the thread, that would explain why you're having trouble following the arguments.

Why isn't the NRA calling for fixing this flaw?I don't know. How do you know they are not?Why isn't the NRA rolling out reminders about safety?They do
OK. Fair enough. Link me to those calls. And to their reminders about safety following the incident in the OP.
Except that they don't exist. Though if they do, I'd love to have a look.

You know why. That's not their focus, and hasn't been since the 1980s. I don't know why if in fact there is any basis in reality in your rhetorical questions and neither do you. The NRA focuses on all kinds of stuff
First you say how do I know they don't exist, they you say you don't know why they don't exist.
There is indeed a basis to these questions -- the NRA has a very consistent rhetorical focus, and that's as the political wing for the manufacturing cartel.

What else ya got ??
You haven't addressed what's here yet beyond establishing you don't give a fuck.
Probably more evidence isn't going to cause you to give a fuck either. You don't need facts--you've already decided what you want to think, regardless of evidence to the contrary.

Well, you don't seem to be able to point to any evidence of these claims, and simply dismiss the ones you don't care to answer. Hardly convincing.

I'm not sure what you're claiming with all these questions. Spell it out. What are you claiming ? I've probably covered it / them already.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin
You only see the political action side of things because that's what makes headlines.

Including the NRA's own headlines. So what, big deal, why would I give a fuck about that?
I know you don't give a fuck. But it speaks directly to what I'm pointing out to you. You can decide to ignore it, or to not give a fuck, but that doesn't change reality.

Ever bemoan how Congress is controlled by outside money? Yes


Or that businesses appear to be motivated by maximizing profit? No, why shouldn't businesses maximize their profits and what does that have to do with what we're talkin about?
I've no problem with business profit either. Following a thread here -- it speaks to motivation and financial control.

Why do you think the NRA is immune from outside money control? I don't understand the the question but probably don't give a fuck.
Again, I know you don't give a fuck. But this is entirely the claim. Not giving a fuck isn't equivalent to counter-argument or contrary evidence. The money calls the tune. And that may be fine, the implication of the previous question, but nonetheless, that's reality.


Where is the NRA on these incidents? Defending against their boogie man. What incidents ? What boogie man?
Hmmm. You may have noticed these in the course of this thread, beaten over and over again long after the horse was dead. See post one for the first. The second is the NRA's straw man characterization of people working tirelessly right now to confiscate all guns (not my exaggeration -- that's precisely what they say as the reason to join the NRA, in that language). If you aren't really following the thread, that would explain why you're having trouble following the arguments.

Why isn't the NRA calling for fixing this flaw?I don't know. How do you know they are not?Why isn't the NRA rolling out reminders about safety?They do
OK. Fair enough. Link me to those calls. And to their reminders about safety following the incident in the OP.
Except that they don't exist. Though if they do, I'd love to have a look.

You know why. That's not their focus, and hasn't been since the 1980s. I don't know why if in fact there is any basis in reality in your rhetorical questions and neither do you. The NRA focuses on all kinds of stuff
First you say how do I know they don't exist, they you say you don't know why they don't exist.
There is indeed a basis to these questions -- the NRA has a very consistent rhetorical focus, and that's as the political wing for the manufacturing cartel.

What else ya got ??
You haven't addressed what's here yet beyond establishing you don't give a fuck.
Probably more evidence isn't going to cause you to give a fuck either. You don't need facts--you've already decided what you want to think, regardless of evidence to the contrary.

Well, you don't seem to be able to point to any evidence of these claims, and simply dismiss the ones you don't care to answer. Hardly convincing.

I'm not sure what you're claiming with all these questions. Spell it out. What are you claiming ? I've probably covered it / them already.

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
the guy who brings a firearm to a fistfight or to challenge a lost Alzheimer's man wandering on his property is a form coward or paranoid personality.

Well then, I guess all the people who kick your ass in these debates must be either cowards or paranoid personalities.

Well, you don't kick anyone's ass! So you aren't a coward or paranoid. Though I think actual paranoia is defined differently in the DSM-5.