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Setting up for Failure - 2/27/2015 7:09:43 PM   
SinFix


Posts: 866
Joined: 4/1/2011
Status: offline 		This thread http://www.collarchat.com/m_4785589/tm.htm got me thinking about setting up for failure, to me this is a prime example of both of them setting up a scenerio that was doomed to fail from the first word uttered about it.

Now, they could both accept, forgive and move forward from this. Learn the lesson and realize that communication is truly key.

Now with all that said, how do you alleviate the majority of set up that has the potential to happen? You could talk about it till the cows came home, but one tiny key could be missed and bam... Houston we have failure..

For me it is a constant dance, the music may constantly change but both partners need to keep in step. The D needs the confidence, assuredness and intelligence to lead this dance while the s surrenders their doubt, insecurities and willfulness to follow their D around the floor. Yet, where this fails is when there is a misstep. A falter in the flow that if allowed can completely end the dance and leave both partners scratching their head on what went wrong.

I think the critical key to fixing the problem is forgiveness, not only of the other partner but of yourself as well. To understand that yes, as humans we are going to misstep but I believe in us enough that it is forgiven and lets get this dance going, cause damn it I love being in your arms..

So that this isn't just an observation of sorts..

How do you alleviate failure, for yourself or your partner?
Has a failure ever lead to an "ending of the dance" for you?
and well how about What the fuck do you think of what I just said?

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RE: Setting up for Failure - 2/27/2015 7:25:09 PM   
shiftyw


Posts: 2837
Joined: 6/6/2013
From: The Shire
Status: offline 		I feel that thread, and this "problem" is actually a problem that is also common in relationships outside of BDSM. My answers reflect that probably more than in regards to D/s....

How do you alleviate failure, for yourself or your partner?
I'm a pretty forgiving person. Sometimes to a fault.
I'm big on affirmations and making sure they know their feelings are valid (IF they are...if they aren't- we have a different problem).
I'm also really kind to him, and do my best to soothe him.

In myself? welp- I'm fucking terrible at that. So I'm not even gonna go there.

Has a failure ever lead to an "ending of the dance" for you?
Yes. He failed to stay sober one too many times and I couldn't deal.
Yes. I failed to scale walls I put up and became deliberately emotionally unreachable.

and well how about What the fuck do you think of what I just said?
I think you're pretty dead on :)

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RE: Setting up for Failure - 2/27/2015 8:59:41 PM   
InHisHeart


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Joined: 3/22/2014
Status: offline 		IMO, how to alleviate failure is first knowing yourself very well, being honest with yourself and honest with your partner. If you're not completely honest with yourself, you can't be completely honest with a partner. Know what you are capable of and what you aren't capable of and be honest about it with yourself and your partner.

The example you gave, his expectations of her were very unreasonable but she wasn't honest with him or herself about it. She agreed to something she knew she wasn't going to be able to do. It doesn't sound like he had any idea what he was requesting of her.

As far as forgiveness, I believe in forgiveness but forgiving doesn't mean I want to continue on with that person. Whether or not we could start the dance again would depend on what the missteps were. There are some things I could forgive, move on from and restart the dance. There are some things that will end the dance. One thing that will end a dance is if someone breaks my trust, I can forgive them for it but the dance is over. Once my trust is broken, it's gone and not coming back so the relationship is over with. It has to be 100% mutual trust or there's no relationship.




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RE: Setting up for Failure - 2/27/2015 9:09:15 PM   
sexyred1


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Status: offline 		That is pretty much how I feel as well.

It does depend on the misstep and how it is treated by both partners.

I will say that you do need to be able to walk away after establishing what would end the dance.

Staying too long undermines your refusal to be treated less than you desire and have requested.

Then the dance becomes fodder for They Shoot Horses, Don't They.

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RE: Setting up for Failure - 2/27/2015 9:41:28 PM   
ResidentSadist


Posts: 12580
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From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
Status: offline 		Yup, that whole thing seems doomed from the get go. I suspect this isn't the first failure for either of them. He may have delusions that his power is greater than the years of therapy she has gone through in that with a word, he thought he could cure her of a life long behavior problem. I have succeeded at behavior modification for someone with a 20 year history of an emotional problem, but it took 6 months not 6 minutes.

She is has more issues than bulimia. She blames other people for her choices avoiding accountability for her actions. She blames him for abuse and abandoning her when it was her anxiety that inspired her to break up with him. She must be desperate to have agreed to a set of rules that violate her life long pattern and she couldn't possibly follow.

For me "failure" is part of the educational process on the path to success. Laugh at your mistakes and learn from them. I have "ended the dance" a few times but it was only after failure taught what it took to succeed. We didn't give up because we had failed. We chose to end it because we learned that what it took to succeed was a greater price than we were willing to pay. And in almost every case, it was only the romantic relationship that ended. Our friendship continued.

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RE: Setting up for Failure - 2/27/2015 10:34:02 PM   
DaddySatyr


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From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
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I don't have much experience with eating disorders, but from what I'm told, it's very similar to addiction. I have some experience, there.

How any person with two brain cells to rub together could think that "because I say so" is going to cure an addiction is beyond me. So, fail sauce for the dominant, in that issue.

How any person could think that someone else is going to be able to "fix" them, without the person doing the inside work on themselves is also beyond me, but I will give a partial pass to someone who's in the grip of an addiction. That said, it's on the addict, at some point, to get to work on themselves.

The long-and-short of it is, as I said in that thread: People don't communicate properly !

I haven't said: "I'll never hurt you" to a lady in years. I have said: "I'll never intentionally hurt you." There's a huge difference.

Someone once said: "No pain. No gain". I believe that and I believe that life and relationships are a growth process. Based upon what I just typed, by definition, that means there's going to be some pain in a relationship; the object is to not intentionally cause it.

"I'll never leave you" is un-diluted bullshit. I have said: "I'll be around until the relationship becomes more bad than good." (or something similar. That is a tough conversation to have).

The OP said it, but it really is that simple and that complicated: Communication.

Now, there's another phenomenon where one party is setting up the other, but on these boards, similar circumstances are often ill-received. I'll have to mull over whether or not I wish to share.



Michael

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RE: Setting up for Failure - 2/27/2015 10:48:49 PM   
shiftyw


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Joined: 6/6/2013
From: The Shire
Status: offline 		Michael, without getting into specific info- can you elaborate? Obviously you deem it worth discussing, there has to be a way to phrase it that doesn't hurt anyone?

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RE: Setting up for Failure - 2/28/2015 4:47:20 AM   
SinFix


Posts: 866
Joined: 4/1/2011
Status: offline 		Inhisheart: I agree for the most part, but there is no way to know or predict every little nuance of yourself and share it. I've tried that, it seems there is one little grain that gets lost or misplaced and failure becomes imminent. As much as I would love to say I know myself, there are things I am still learning.

I used that as a stepping stone example because for the most part it is glaringly obvious that it is a set up for failure. It's more the little things that cause the missteps and was just pondering if they in fact could even be alleviated.

Michael, I hope you do share.

Though how about the person that purposefully sets up a failure (for whatever reason, ie. punishment/funishment)?

As an example: My best friend pretty much never actually breaks up with his girlfriends (we won't go into my feelings on that matter but just say I think it's a douchbag thing). What he does is constantly set them up to fail, like giving them the wrong time to meet up with him for something. He continues this behavior until they finally throw up their hands and walk away from the dance, they just never realize that the music never quite changed it actually stopped playing.

I feel these types are the worst, they undermine self worth, self esteem and cause major trust issues.


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RE: Setting up for Failure - 2/28/2015 4:53:21 AM   
DaddySatyr


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From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SinFix

Michael, I hope you do share.



I've cogitated upon it for a while and I think, in this instance, I'm going to opt for the valorous.



Michael

_____________________________

A Stone in My Shoe

Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

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RE: Setting up for Failure - 2/28/2015 5:03:13 AM   
SinFix


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Status: offline 		Michael, I completely understand.

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RE: Setting up for Failure - 2/28/2015 5:05:54 AM   
DaddySatyr


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From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
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That makes me feel so much better, then.



Michael

_____________________________

A Stone in My Shoe

Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

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RE: Setting up for Failure - 2/28/2015 5:24:40 AM   
petitespot


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From: Surfside Beach, SC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SinFix

Has a failure ever lead to an "ending of the dance" for you?



Yup. I made a very bad mistake. It was most definitely not done on purpose.
I was in love with him and he was my world.
He couldn't forgive me or focus on the million good things I did for him.
He couldn't get over my mistake and it changed how he viewed me.
So he left me.


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RE: Setting up for Failure - 2/28/2015 5:57:01 AM   
SinFix


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

The OP said it, but it really is that simple and that complicated: Communication.

Michael[/color]


I just snipped this part cause I think this is the crux, not to point at you michael just this..

Communication, we all say that it is the key to making a relationship work, yet time and again it is the complete reason for the downfall of said relationship.

As I stated in the OP, you could talk till the cows come home but if one crucial element was missed it leads to failure or even if it was said but not understood, miscommunicated in some way that failure again becomes imminent.

I think the sad thing is, all of us hold the keys yet they are our greatest downfall. This is a personal thing for me, as I do lack some of the basic skills to at times communicate effectively. Good or bad, right or wrong, it is there looming over me, that very real chance that I set up the failure through my own "inabilities". Now I am very upfront with any one about this, it is not like I hide it or deny it. It is one of the first things I bring up/mention when getting to know someone, that being open and communicating is extremely difficult for me.



Petitespot: I cannot even imagine how that could feel to you, all I can say is that it would be devastating to go through.


edited to get her name right..

< Message edited by SinFix -- 2/28/2015 5:58:48 AM >

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RE: Setting up for Failure - 2/28/2015 6:11:31 AM   
DaddySatyr


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From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
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In one of my classes (Mass Communications), we had a writing assignment that was based on just this topic (sort of).

It didn't deal with the end of a romantic relationship but the question(s) was(/were): "At some point in our lives, we have either mis-communicated or been mis-understood. Write about one of these instances in your life."

Unfortunately, mis-communication/mis-understanding is a human failing from which we all suffer. None of us (from what I've witnessed in my life) are immune. Some of us try to improve our skills so that the incidents/damages are minimized, but, in the end, it's just one o' them things.

EAT: Fuck it. I'll share this one:

I was on the phone with someone and I was disagreeing with a decision that they had made that would affect me.

I said: "Well, if that's your final word, I guess we're going to have to go to the wall on this."

I was immediately accused of "threatening" them. They said they were calling the authorities, etc.

I, certainly, was threatening to go over their head. That I'll admit to but this supposedly educated person didn't know that "go to the wall" was an expression that has its basis in one's back being to a wall.

Moronic (and they drew a firm talking-to as a result while I got a semi-apology)



Michael

< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 2/28/2015 6:36:58 AM >

_____________________________

A Stone in My Shoe

Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

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RE: Setting up for Failure - 2/28/2015 7:04:18 AM   
InHisHeart


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SinFix

Inhisheart: I agree for the most part, but there is no way to know or predict every little nuance of yourself and share it. I've tried that, it seems there is one little grain that gets lost or misplaced and failure becomes imminent. As much as I would love to say I know myself, there are things I am still learning.

I used that as a stepping stone example because for the most part it is glaringly obvious that it is a set up for failure. It's more the little things that cause the missteps and was just pondering if they in fact could even be alleviated.



I agree completely Sin, I'm always learning something new about myself and that won't end until my ashes are blowing in the wind. What I meant by know yourself and be honest with yourself is if you know you're not capable of something, be honest about it with yourself and your partner. If you're not sure, be honest about that.

As you learn new things about yourself, share it with your partner and your partner do the same. There are things about me I didn't know existed, there are things about him he didn't know existed, some good, some not so good and there will be more to come. When those things come out, we talk about them and worked together to deal with them. Unless it's something that one or the other just can't continue on in the relationship with, I don't see why things that can possibly be worked out, shouldn't be given a chance to work it out. I have definite deal-breakers where there will be no second chances and those involve trust.

I've been sober for a long time, I told him I would do my very best to stay sober but I can't promise him I'll never drink again. I have absolutely no intentions of ever drinking again but I'm human and I have no idea what tomorrow might bring that could push me over the edge. I told him if I ever feel I'm on the edge, I will tell him so he can help me back down from the edge. I only made promises that I know I can keep. I'm very stable in my sobriety, I can be around booze and it not tempt me, I can go to a pub and be fine with others drinking. He's a brewer so beer is a part of our life, I just don't drink it and that's not an issue at all. Some would say I could be setting myself up for failure by getting involved with someone who's a brewer but I knew myself well enough to know him being a brewer, me not being able to drink would not be a problem. Now if I wasn't stable in my sobriety, then I would be setting us up for failure.

The bottom line for me is, I live with knowing there are no guarantees for tomorrow, today is all I have. I plan for tomorrow and look forward to tomorrow but I live for today because even the best laid out plans can change in a heartbeat.

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I don't have a bucket list but my fucket list is a mile long.

I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief.


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RE: Setting up for Failure - 2/28/2015 9:05:13 AM   
SinFix


Posts: 866
Joined: 4/1/2011
Status: offline 		Thank you Inhisheart, I agree. Congrats on the sobriety, from seeing it through my friends and family I know it is no easy task.

In a small way, it could be said I am the same. That for me this whole communication thing is a struggle, a daily thing I have to stay vigilant with or it seems to spiral out of control. That on any given day an undertone of failure is constantly there to remind me..

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RE: Setting up for Failure - 2/28/2015 9:18:53 AM   
ExiledTyrant


Posts: 4547
Joined: 12/9/2013
From: Exiled
Status: offline 		As you know, mo chroí, for me it is all about the 100%. I do not set you up for failure, or anyone else. I need people in my life to know what they can and cannot do. If you “can” do something, there is not ever failure, there may be a few dozen ways to not achieve the desired outcome until the successful outcome is achieved, but not failure…

“I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work.”
― Thomas A. Edison

“Many of life's failures are people who did not realize how close they were to success when they gave up.”
― Thomas A. Edison

It’s not about success or failure; it is about can and cannot. Trying is failure in disguise. Either you “can” with 100% conviction and the tenacity to persevere through and beyond each stumble, or you simply “cannot” with 100% conviction.

It is about knowing yourself… your “cans” and “cannots” are within you… only you, I can only speculate at best.

You can “try” something new and then it falls neatly within the “can” or “cannot”, but from that moment on there is no more trying… you either can or you cannot, and to give less than 100% is just “trying” and that is failure in disguise.

In the referenced thread the D and the /s did not know themselves well enough to understand what they “can” and “cannot” do, they tried and they failed. They set themselves up for failure by not understanding the issue or the limitations of the affliction. It is not only paramount that we know and understand all our finer tick-tock workings, but we know our needs and wants and how they operate within a relationship… any relationship.

I abhor sloth and do not allow sloths (three toed or not) to come into my home… it always ends badly and if I were to yield on that stance, I would be setting the relationship (of any kind) up for failure. My nephew is in his 30’s and his go to line is, “I’m a grown ass man”… he is a grown ass man that does not come to my house because giving him a grown ass beating is something he desperately needs that I do not need to debase myself to give. Yep, he’s a grown ass man that does not know how to pick up after himself, not even and especially as a guest.

Communication is the key, and sometimes “unspoken” is more profound than “spoken”. I can say I love to pull hair, she can say she loves to have her hair pulled, but the proof of my love to do it and her love to have it done is going to be in her reaction/response to me doing it. Too soft, too hard, too firm, too loose… those are all yet to be determined, but the “unspoken” is going to queue me well before the spoken.

In this medium we have our words to find our compatibility, but it is going to come down to so many unspoken things over and over. Whether we communicate beyond our unspoken response/reaction is up to us, but failure and success is going to be intricately woven into when, where, and how we communicate. 100% in all ways precludes failure… does not preclude incompatibility, but knowing you’re incompatible, voicing the incompatibility, and resolving the incompatibility, one way or the other, is a success unto itself.

I can or I cannot, there is no try unless it is trying to discover.

Jus sayin


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To lead, first follow: Aurelius, Epictetus, Descartes, Sun Tzu, to name a few.

Semper fidelis (which sometimes feels like a burden)

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RE: Setting up for Failure - 2/28/2015 9:29:55 AM   
shiftyw


Posts: 2837
Joined: 6/6/2013
From: The Shire
Status: offline 		This isn't really relevant to this, but it is good reading, mostly about how to set yourself up for success and what you should view as success vs. failure. A dear friend sent it to me and I thought it might have at least a little context here:
http://www.farnamstreetblog.com/2013/12/scott-adams-fail-at-everything/

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RE: Setting up for Failure - 2/28/2015 10:07:42 AM   
SinFix


Posts: 866
Joined: 4/1/2011
Status: offline 		Thank you

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RE: Setting up for Failure - 2/28/2015 11:01:02 AM   
DesFIP


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Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		I don't respond well to people deliberately setting me up to fail. Life is full of those kinds of lessons from getting a flat tire in zero degree weather to a diagnosis of devastating illness.

If someone thinks I'm too confident and need to be made to fail to teach me my true place, then what I'll learn from that is that where I belong is as far from them as possible.

As far as unintentionally doing that, welcome to real life. You will eventually fuck up, you will hurt someone you love. What matters there is what your next step is. Be sincerely apologetic and then don't do that in the future. Eventually you'll learn that you can't do anything on a list of 20 things without having a clusterfuck as a result. If you really need to do those 20 things, then be honest and tell the other person. End the relationship before deliberately harming them and seek someone more compatible.



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