RE: -=Money Pigs/FinDomery - real fetish or fake? (soapbox)=-

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Lucylastic -> RE: -=Money Pigs/FinDomery - real fetish or fake? (soapbox)=- (7/31/2015 4:58:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThePrincessKali And in regards to Fin Dommes being a threat to men, I feel that i should have made my" eye rollin , dripping sarcasm, this is in response to a complete bullshit assessment " remark a tiny bit clearer. it was sarcasm only

ThePrincessKali -> RE: -=Money Pigs/FinDomery - real fetish or fake? (soapbox)=- (7/31/2015 10:33:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic quote: ORIGINAL: ThePrincessKali And in regards to Fin Dommes being a threat to men, I feel that i should have made my" eye rollin , dripping sarcasm, this is in response to a complete bullshit assessment " remark a tiny bit clearer. it was sarcasm only Oh no I was agreeing with you lol. It was in response DaddySatyrs comment about how fin Domme's are "money leaches" and the general comments in this topic about how Fin Dommes are criminals and taking advantage of men. I understood you were being sarcastic lol.

Lucylastic -> RE: -=Money Pigs/FinDomery - real fetish or fake? (soapbox)=- (7/31/2015 10:41:10 AM)
Lol...thank you...i needed to be sure that i was only offending the people/person, i meant to ...offend [;)]

TNDommeK -> RE: -=Money Pigs/FinDomery - real fetish or fake? (soapbox)=- (7/31/2015 11:05:29 AM)
I totally got that. I have the same reaction when I read idiotic posts like that. I love how the men are portrayed as mindless and weak. It's like we are sirens! Lol I'll say this and I've said before..a few of my finsubs are men of power. They have a high position in their career. Or they are men who are dominant in everyday life. So I highly doubt lil ol me can devour their souls. Well, maybe. But still! The point is. These men know exactly what they are asking for. I find that men who complain about such have often been on the bad end of an unskilled fin duck. Or been turned away by one, and are left scorn lol. Leaches..I like that, I might have to add that one to my sig line.

Moderator3 -> RE: -=Money Pigs/FinDomery - real fetish or fake? (soapbox)=- (7/31/2015 11:51:58 AM)
As a moderator there are times when you can be torn on how to handle something and with this topic, I am torn. I've had to look at this in various ways and I think I'm very close if not there, to a decision. I have to weigh out what I have been trained in, how to view things and compare things that all play into what is fair, what is right, what is best. The final question I have to ask myself is, do the benefits of a thread like this that can bring some understanding, outweigh what some don't know and what I know and finally I get to the following. What if it were another more acceptable to more, kink, that people were starting threads to mostly complain about rather than actually understand and doing so on a regular basis and at times, overwhelmingly so? What if it were a kink or fetish that was constantly invalidated, criticized and pointed out as unacceptable to many? Would we allow it? As a moderator with guidelines that require I not allow the bashing of someone's kink or fetish, within reason of course; would I allow this? No, I would not. So why am I? Well, because it became common place, acceptable or not and it has always been that way. I became used to it so much that I didn't think any deeper on it. I don't really want to keep people from expressing themselves or debating it. There are times when people defending their kink or interests, can inform and some opinions may change because people hadn't thought about that aspect of a kink, they wanted to challenge for reasons that may be personal. So why when I know that I can find out who the most popular profiles belong to and how many men seek this, despite those that abuse the kink, it is seen by many as something they enjoy and seek, did I allow many site users to be dissed, dismissed, ridiculed, attacked, etc? Is the information that may educate worth what these threads bring about? Do enough people gain from what is shared that might prove good cause to allow what is happening? I'm leaning toward a no there. I plan to get the opinions of others or even go into debate on this with staff. So we may be looking at the last findom thread. I will have to see what the consensus is on this. Whether you are for or against this as a kink, I have seen with my own eyes, how many seek this, how popular findoms are and the numbers suggest that for many, for whatever reasons, it is the sole kink to many and purpose for what they do. I can't dismiss those numbers as it is actually one of the most popular things people seek and do, going by the numbers. For those handling this interest or desire, we have to limit certain things, but it also means there are some things that we do around here that try to keep it from being used to scam people. I am not changing anything other than perhaps the insults, attacks and challenges these threads create for those that take part in this. I am speaking only for what goes on, on the forum. Perhaps it can be discussed without attacks in general toward anyone that takes part. I simply don't know yet.

RemoteUser -> RE: -=Money Pigs/FinDomery - real fetish or fake? (soapbox)=- (7/31/2015 1:33:23 PM)
One thing you might wish to note. quote: ORIGINAL: Moderator3 Whether you are for or against this as a kink, I have seen with my own eyes, how many seek this, how popular findoms are and the numbers suggest that for many, for whatever reasons, it is the sole kink to many and purpose for what they do. I can't dismiss those numbers as it is actually one of the most popular things people seek and do, going by the numbers. For those handling this interest or desire, we have to limit certain things, but it also means there are some things that we do around here that try to keep it from being used to scam people. I am not changing anything other than perhaps the insults, attacks and challenges these threads create for those that take part in this. I am speaking only for what goes on, on the forum. Perhaps it can be discussed without attacks in general toward anyone that takes part. I simply don't know yet. As I stated earlier, the numbers in this fetish are going to be skewed not due to popularity but the commercial laws of supply and demand. This fetish extends beyond the conventional practices that have been in place up to this point. A FinDom must advertise to get satisfaction, a client must consider carefully who they give their money to for their own financial safety (and emotional safety, should we choose to view them as intertwined). I wish I could give you a measuring stick by which to weigh this in proportion to other "standard" kinks, but we both know that isn't viable. I don't like noting a problem or concern without finding a resolution. It is quite feasible to say, provide an outlet within the community bounded from the mainstream - which is to say, segregate, but I've already listed the problems with that. I know what you have to face and consider. I hope your meeting goes well over the issue. I will say that, by the numbers, suppression of a hot/ongoing topic leads to fewer contributions, and that a directed (if segregated) outlet alleviates the issue of providing a forum for the topic. No matter how you approach this, one segment or another is going to get burned; but even though the numbers do support a contained, directed approach much like the creation of a forum exclusively for Gor, there is also the ethics to consider. Best of luck with that. If you want to discuss it off-board, you are always welcome to message me on the other side. I'm always glad to offer an opinion or to try and make a bad situation easier to manage (given that my line of work and my life both put me in situations where I have to navigate the unlikely or impossible regularly, it really wouldn't bother me as much as it probably should). However you finally handle this, I hope the solution you implement is the one that ultimately works best for everyone. Collar has taken several blows over the years. I don't want to see this place go down for the count over an unavoidable, if charged, issue.

BitaTruble -> RE: -=Money Pigs/FinDomery - real fetish or fake? (soapbox)=- (7/31/2015 2:44:37 PM)
Mod3 - The gorean section hasn't had a new thread started in over a month. The only post in the past month was a drive-by on a thread that hadn't been touched in ages. Do enough people gain from the almost dead Gorean forum to justify its continued presence? Goreans actually shunned BDSM for most of it's existence, but findommes who actually embrace the lifestyle should not be allowed to have a voice in an aspect of life which effects everyone which is economics? Not an argument I can buy even at a discount. Consider the cost of equipment, leather, space, lightening, heat, supplies to maintain the health of a bottom.. blankets, treats for energy, dry cleaning when you are so drenched with sweat from the work out you stain your clothes...that stuff adds up. Bottoms don't have dry cleaning bills because they are naked! (That's an assumption. The bottoms with whom I play are naked.. mmv on that one for sure.) Threads regarding cost to benefit ratio of expenses, threads regarding different ways to barter, sharing of gifts and story's regarding disasters and elation could be funny, insightful and educational. I am not an advocate of cutting off ones nose to spite ones face. If a few squawkers start getting personal and vicious.. do your job and shut THEM down. Findommes have not done ANYTHING to the forums ... except add conversation. The forums are not the other side.. here we TALK..well, write. Please don't stop that. Findommes want payment in money or shoes, whatever. Guys want payment in blow jobs. Ya'll want something so get the fuck over it. Some hot chick comes up and begs to give you ten bucks for a blow job.. yeah, dude.. I already hear your zipper so save it. A few probably wouldn't drop drawer but I would bet most would. As a general rule, men are sluts. They would take the dime, get the blow job then send you to the store with the ten bucks for beer and sandwiches. Okay, that's my two cents. :D

Moderator3 -> RE: -=Money Pigs/FinDomery - real fetish or fake? (soapbox)=- (7/31/2015 2:51:47 PM)
LOL I hear you both and thank you. You bring up some things I will need to think about. There is a middle ground here and I think we have just about found it. Again, thank you both!

Ionium -> RE: -=Money Pigs/FinDomery - real fetish or fake? (soapbox)=- (7/31/2015 3:00:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BitaTruble As a general rule, men are sluts. As a general rule, men are sluts, women are whores, and the only difference is in the why.

RemoteUser -> RE: -=Money Pigs/FinDomery - real fetish or fake? (soapbox)=- (7/31/2015 6:38:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ionium quote: ORIGINAL: BitaTruble As a general rule, men are sluts. As a general rule, men are sluts, women are whores, and the only difference is in the why. General rules are how stereotypes evolve and flourish. Tossing around labels just makes the world easier to categorize for an individual. [;)] There's always bound to be exceptions. Like Bita said, some men won't have sex for money, and I'm one of them (and no, the amount really doesn't matter, because I'm a romantic, I have sex with people I like, or my hands). Likewise, I know a few women who do deserve the label 'whore' but I wouldn't apply that en masse because it's ludicrous.

BitaTruble -> RE: -=Money Pigs/FinDomery - real fetish or fake? (soapbox)=- (7/31/2015 10:11:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RemoteUser General rules are how stereotypes evolve and flourish. Okay.. If men aren't sluts why do you wake up sporting wood?

TNDommeK -> RE: -=Money Pigs/FinDomery - real fetish or fake? (soapbox)=- (8/1/2015 1:39:56 AM)
I figured Roch's thread would have become a sticky. Well aside from the bullshit name calling. It as actually informative for a few people. But I myself get tired of these threads, except when open indeed people are here to learn and make a choice about the kink.

FrankAr -> RE: -=Money Pigs/FinDomery - real fetish or fake? (soapbox)=- (8/1/2015 4:31:57 AM)
I went through all 18 pages and some I just skimmed through because it was a better thing to do, simple. A question RS. You mentioned about the diaper thing in the opening post and how it became a BDSM thing. Ok. How long did it take for it to become a BDSM thing ? Sometimes the changes do happen over a period of years or decades or even centuries, that is how I think nature and people tend to go about it. Because the BDSM thing has been going on for the presence of men, and women. Just asking . Frank Ar.

Arturas -> RE: -=Money Pigs/FinDomery - real fetish or fake? (soapbox)=- (8/1/2015 10:39:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FrankAr I went through all 18 pages and some I just skimmed through because it was a better thing to do, simple. A question RS. You mentioned about the diaper thing in the opening post and how it became a BDSM thing. Ok. How long did it take for it to become a BDSM thing ? Sometimes the changes do happen over a period of years or decades or even centuries, that is how I think nature and people tend to go about it. Because the BDSM thing has been going on for the presence of men, and women. Just asking . Frank Ar. Not nearly as long as the fin dom business I would suggest. Would you agree? I used to think fin doms were not prostitutes but I have realized we men are in it for base sexual drives. When I bind Star to a whipping horse, pull her panties down around her bent knees and make her wear high heels while I spank and whip her and then while I give her water and she licks my fingers, well guess what, I am a man who has dragged her to my cave and forced my will on her and she responds in a very sexual way and it is not a financial but a natural interchange, intercourse, rather than a paid one. So when all the smoke and mirrors are removed the fin dom is selling a sex act thereby fitting within then accepted definition of being a prostitute and there is nothing wrong with that you understand. I also think my posts are sexier than yours Frank. Wonder why that is?

ResidentSadist -> RE: -=Money Pigs/FinDomery - real fetish or fake? (soapbox)=- (8/1/2015 11:24:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FrankAr I went through all 18 pages and some I just skimmed through because it was a better thing to do, simple. A question RS. You mentioned about the diaper thing in the opening post and how it became a BDSM thing. Ok. How long did it take for it to become a BDSM thing ? Sometimes the changes do happen over a period of years or decades or even centuries, that is how I think nature and people tend to go about it. Because the BDSM thing has been going on for the presence of men, and women. Just asking . Frank Ar. You have a very good point about the adult baby thing, it took many years. It has been mentioned that financial domination just may not be in the books yet. However that is pretty far fetched. Allow me to explain, the adult baby paraphilias were recognized as paraphilias and in the DSM long before they ever became part of the BDSM scene. In fact, everything that makes up "what it is we do" was studied long before we ever invented the term BDSM or became a community. Mankind is fascinated with its own sexuality and has an insatiable interest in it. Since the beginning of the written word, we would study it, teach it and break it down to see what makes us tick. I never said that what consists of financial domination wasn't a turn on. I question whether it belongs categorized as BDSM. I used the fact all our other fetishes can be found as paraphilias as a point of reference. I question how anyone expects me to believe financial domination escaped notice? It isn't something new and hasn't escaped study... nor is anything else we do. FinDommes and paypigs did not invent "what it is they do" and it was well defined long ago... it's just not defined as a paraphilia. That doesn't mean its not sexy or valid in its own right. There many sexy things outside the realm of BDSM.

TNDommeK -> RE: -=Money Pigs/FinDomery - real fetish or fake? (soapbox)=- (8/1/2015 12:32:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arturas quote: ORIGINAL: FrankAr I went through all 18 pages and some I just skimmed through because it was a better thing to do, simple. A question RS. You mentioned about the diaper thing in the opening post and how it became a BDSM thing. Ok. How long did it take for it to become a BDSM thing ? Sometimes the changes do happen over a period of years or decades or even centuries, that is how I think nature and people tend to go about it. Because the BDSM thing has been going on for the presence of men, and women. Just asking . Frank Ar. Not nearly as long as the fin dom business I would suggest. Would you agree? I used to think fin doms were not prostitutes but I have realized we men are in it for base sexual drives. When I bind Star to a whipping horse, pull her panties down around her bent knees and make her wear high heels while I spank and whip her and then while I give her water and she licks my fingers, well guess what, I am a man who has dragged her to my cave and forced my will on her and she responds in a very sexual way and it is not a financial but a natural interchange, intercourse, rather than a paid one. So when all the smoke and mirrors are removed the fin dom is selling a sex act thereby fitting within then accepted definition of being a prostitute and there is nothing wrong with that you understand. I also think my posts are sexier than yours Frank. Wonder why that is? Yea I have to 100% disagree with the smoke and mirrors/sex act description. That's not how I do things at all. As a fin, I'm not selling anything sexual. It's a financial thing. Now my pro work, I can see how that would be. I'm quite sure licking boots and wax play can be sexual to those doing the licking.

Arturas -> RE: -=Money Pigs/FinDomery - real fetish or fake? (soapbox)=- (8/1/2015 1:32:39 PM)
quote: I'm quite sure licking boots and wax play can be sexual to those doing the licking It occurs to me that licking boots is either done because they taste good or it is foreplay or on Maslows's hierarchy of needs where does the act of licking boots fall? So when a man is paying to lick a woman's boot is he doing so because his own boot lacks that taste or is the woman within the boot fulfilling a need he has and is that need the taste of leather or pleather or something else? Are you renting your boot or are you renting you and is the man renting your boot because he likes the taste of boots? Hmmm...

JVoV -> RE: -=Money Pigs/FinDomery - real fetish or fake? (soapbox)=- (8/1/2015 1:45:37 PM)
I think the boots themselves have less significance until they're on the right feet. Although I think you may have sufficiently creeped me out enough that I'll be carrying Lysol spray with me when I go get my next Nike's

ResidentSadist -> RE: -=Money Pigs/FinDomery - real fetish or fake? (soapbox)=- (8/1/2015 1:47:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NeedAWhirlie ...........I don't know you or ResidentSadist, so i'm keeping myself reserved in manner. I also will confess I skipped over pages 3-15 (oh, I did catch the German bit), so I deeply apologize if i'm repeating something here or missed something critical that makes my post completely irrelevant. I'm curious, ResidentSadist, why the need for a DSM-approved definition of something someone calls a kink? I'm not going to defend from an APA perspective, because I couldn't. But I don't feel it's necessary. If I derive sexual pleasure from a certain "atypical" situation, I can call it my kink, yes? I agree that not all kinks, certainly, fall under the BDSM umbrella and sometimes it's eyeroll-provoking when BDSM seems to have gone mainstream hip and is completely misused. I think that's the case with the rise of financial domination- simple human exploitation for monetary gain. BUT, I can personally attest to the existence of financial domination as a sexual kink. So, I'll just go ahead and open up here, something in all the years of CS(fka CM) profile journal entries I've never shared... I do derive sexual pleasure at the thought of submitting financially. So i'm presenting the other side of this coin. Now- will I sign up for a "pay tax" with some of these FinDommes advertising online? No because it's not going to be a safe reality for me. But in my fantasies, that's another story and orgasms happen. I say this, as embarrassing as I find it (not in a kinky way) to admit at large, because while I might be in a small minority, it's not a minority of one. So for the others in a similar situation as mine, I wanted to start to break down the shame of it. That's why you don't see it in person, ResidentSadist- because it's hugely embarrassing and it's never welcomed, and worse, someone like you goes on a soapbox about how it can't be real. How could that make someone like me feel? Like hiding it away, away, away and highlighting only the "acceptable" BDSM kinks I have. You could meet me in person and never, ever know this about me, so you'd go on believing this kink is not real. So let me just clarify- no, I've never and I won't ever sign up to a FinDomme online to pay her just to pay her, but neither will I engage in any online D/s that I would consider a real relationship. But I have been in real-life D/s situations in which financial control and submission was one component of the relationship. Consensual and enjoyable. Anyway, to me it's just another aspect of ultimate control... thank you again, MissImmortalPain. I thank you for your reply, sharing your perspective, your fantasies and your question. However, I must correct you about your question. I never said "it can't be real" or was unacceptable. I even mention it has been "real" since the dawn of man. I also acknowledge that it can be sexy. Not everything sexy is a kink. Not every kink is fetishism or a paraphilia. And, not every paraphilia or fetish falls under the realm of BDSM. Rubbing up against strangers is a well defined fetish/paraphlia, but it isn't BDSM. "I'm curious, ResidentSadist, why the need for a DSM-approved definition of something someone calls a kink?" I also noticed someone else comment that the DSM isn't going to define what we do... I am afraid they have it backwards. Our behavior is studied and determines what goes in the DSM, not the other way around. Reference books like the DSM are a reflection of us. Nonetheless, I do not take the DSM as the be all/end all. But like Psychopathia Sexualis (1886) which has some out of date reasoning, it documents a wide array of human sexual behavior. I do not doubt that somewhere in the diversity of human sexuality someone may actually be doing something new. One person doing something new probably won't make it into the journals or the DSM. However, when the nature of human sexuality has the masses participating in the same activity, it gets studied. Have we done anything new on the fetish side of human sexual behavior in the past 150 years? Hell, the Marquis de Sade and Leopold von Sacher-Masoch did a pretty good job of running the gamut in the 1700 & 1800s. So we may "do it" with something new or in a new way, but the psychology of the act itself and sexual motivations are old and well documented. Hence my reference to the DSM. I hope you understand my reference to it because it lists all of our BDSM fetishes but financial domination in the paraphilias' section. In quid pro quo I ask . . . In your fantasies, is it the act of tendering money that brings you to orgasm or is it some other factor that accompanies the exchange? For example, their pleasure or reaction to receiving the money? I can wrap my head around how giving money as a service can be an extension of submission in the same way I understand financial control as an extension of domination. I use that example because you said you wouldn't sign up for a "pay tax" with a FinDomme in real life but you have real-life D/s situations where financial control was one component of the relationship. My point is that example isn't financial domination. That is service. It isn't about the money. I wonder if you misinterpret my use of the term financial domination to mean financial control, because I do not equate them as the same. Thank you for your participation in this thread.

Arturas -> RE: -=Money Pigs/FinDomery - real fetish or fake? (soapbox)=- (8/1/2015 2:41:29 PM)
quote: I think the boots themselves have less significance until they're on the right feet. Then why have the boots at all? They have to be uncomfortable over any significant time. Does the high heeled leather boot make the "right feet" taste better through the pleather? Is the "right foot" really mean the "right person" and so the boot is to stimulate a friendship with the right person or is it less about an agape relationship and instead the boot, the high heeled boot or the high heeled shoe really not-sexual? I might be foolish but I think it is clearly sexual therefore the fin dom is performing a sexual service.

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