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RE: Popular BDSM educator/author arrested - 1/10/2016 6:56:14 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
im skeptical of the "not natural or healthy" claim without further explanation as to why/how that is so. id maintain its natural because not only does (or did) it occur, but to the extent, that is, the breadth, that it does. how is it "unnatural?" im not sure how in those instances it was unhealthy either.

By that I meant that young girls were 'naturally' finding themselves, in general, gravitating towards such older men. That was done by circumstances dictated more by society.

As far as people's reactions being due to norms that we live in today, not because of something that they can rationally object to, the same could be said about child brides in the Middle East-I find it deplorable but the cultures that embrace it can rationalize it. That doesn't make it any more despicable.

I recognize that age does not always seem to be an indicator of maturity. Believe me, I know. I work within high schools, and have my entire adult life. I see some of the girls that come through them and I thank god that I am not an adult male. And girls do mature earlier than males. But the girls who are at 17 years old mature enough to deal with a relationship with a man twice her age, or older, especially a bdsm relationship, are the exception by far.

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RE: Popular BDSM educator/author arrested - 1/10/2016 7:00:52 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
your last point from jay wiseman is what I was saying in my first point. its not about her age per se, its about their relative age difference given her age. every states law is different. in ny, the age gap, i believe, is zero years. so technically its illegal for a 17yr old (the age of consent) to have sex with a 15 yr old.

I see statutory rape cases all the time that I think are a total injustice, 17, 18, 19 year old boys being charged because they had consensual sex with their girlfriend, who is 16 or 17. That's deplorable.

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RE: Popular BDSM educator/author arrested - 1/10/2016 7:05:38 PM

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i think your middle paragraph brings up an excellent point and then the question becomes, how does one settle those differing cultural norms. in the example you use though, one can make a better argument that a 17 yr old girl knows her mind certainly more, if not ultimately "enough" than does a 9 yr old, and therein lies the difference.

I wonder about this...ive had plenty of experiences with high school and college students...and my biggest complaint (and I have many) about college students is that college has become an obligatory extension of high school and a fair percentage of the students are unprepared to be there. I believe on the whole, freshmen in college today are "younger" in terms of their maturity and intellectual capabilities than the freshmen from a generation ago. one wonders if the 16yr old girls from 1875 are like the 24yr olds from today. I don't know enough about how consent, and age gap laws were created.

what i just wrote, and what you wrote made me think of a line from kid rock's all summer long: It was 1989, my thoughts were short my hair was long, caught somewhere between a boy and man, she was seventeen and far from in between....

< Message edited by bounty44 -- 1/10/2016 7:08:29 PM >

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RE: Popular BDSM educator/author arrested - 1/10/2016 7:14:40 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

i think your middle paragraph brings up an excellent point and then the question becomes, how does one settle those differing cultural norms. in the example you use though, one can make a better argument that a 17 yr old girl knows her mind certainly more, if not ultimately "enough" than does a 9 yr old, and therein lies the difference.

I wonder about this...ive had plenty of experiences with high school and college students...and my biggest complaint (and I have many) about college students is that college has become an obligatory extension of high school and a fair percentage of the students are unprepared to be there. I believe on the whole, freshmen in college today are "younger" in terms of their maturity and intellectual capabilities than the freshmen from a generation ago. one wonders if the 16yr old girls from 1875 are like the 24yr olds from today. I don't know enough about how consent, and age gap laws were created.

what i just wrote, and what you wrote me think of a line from kid rock's all summer long: It was 1989, my thoughts were short my hair was long, caught somewhere between a boy and man, she was seventeen and far from in between....

The Kid Rock song is one of my all time favorites, lol. And yes, I can certainly relate to that line, personally speaking.

This is a discussion that could go on all day long, and provide a lot of interesting, thoughtful back and forth. But I think the circumstances surrounding this particular case-a convicted sexual predator who spent the better part of a year 'grooming' a teenage girl for a sexual D/s relationship, one who had already proved (through his success) to be adept at manipulating-are ones that take it out of the realm of normal circumstances that I would apply to any such discussion.

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RE: Popular BDSM educator/author arrested - 1/11/2016 5:17:36 AM

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I don't know the facts of the particular case, or the guy in question, but from the outside looking in, just looking at the words you've used to describe it:

id say that the guy had a prior conviction, or restraining order, concerning sexual misconduct is immaterial to the larger question at hand. in fact it even clouds the issue---people can look at the guy and say "see, convicted predator!" and then whatever he does after that fact that's sexually controversial just flows naturally from that and is more of the same. his present actions are already judged by his previous ones.

im assuming at the end of your paragraph youre referencing in the particular girl in question in this case--people use the word "grooming" in instances like this always in an indicting manner, again, telling me their minds are already made up on the issue of that what the guy did was wrong. he's a predator who groomed his prey, as opposed to a man who liked younger women and courted one. if she was 17, she's "groomed;" if she's 18, she's "pursued" or "sought after" or "chased" much in the same way men have been doing so with women since whenever. your saying "manipulating" is indicative of thinking that the girl didn't make her own choices in the matter and was a victim of a sort of mental/emotional plot, as opposed to the guys genuine interest in her and her genuine interest in him.

none of that still really gets to the heart of why/how its immoral or wrong such that we've made, seemingly anyways, such a change from a century ago, to present times.

id love to read a giant book on this topic!

< Message edited by bounty44 -- 1/11/2016 5:18:03 AM >

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RE: Popular BDSM educator/author arrested - 1/11/2016 6:02:42 AM

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maybe some grown ups realised how much damage can be done to an impressionable child/teen by someone old enough to be their grandfather, specially when its sexual in nature.

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RE: Popular BDSM educator/author arrested - 1/11/2016 9:09:53 AM

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First to Lucy, and then I'll get into the quote below. I don't know if you've been reading the blog that PonyGroom linked in a prior response, but there are mentions of some other kinky people (by screen name) who helped the folks avoid authorities for a bit. Probably a stupid decision on their part. I'm not sure how that will turn out.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
I don't know the facts of the particular case, or the guy in question, but from the outside looking in, just looking at the words you've used to describe it:

id say that the guy had a prior conviction, or restraining order, concerning sexual misconduct is immaterial to the larger question at hand. in fact it even clouds the issue---people can look at the guy and say "see, convicted predator!" and then whatever he does after that fact that's sexually controversial just flows naturally from that and is more of the same. his present actions are already judged by his previous ones.

Not entirely and I can say not from everyone. Personally, I didn't know of his prior conviction and his time on the sexual offender registry until after hearing about the current case.

It's occurred to me that this guy might be hoping to push his personal agendas through court of law, either for kink or poly to have some legal changes. If somebody's got that dream, this is not the guy you want spearheading some kind of "BDSM practitioner's rights" kind of thing and it's sure as heck not the case that somebody wants to use to do it. We all know what happens when anything that involves any type of BDSMish, pervy sex type case hits the media. Sex sells papers, kinky sex sells more, and it ends up making most of us look worse. We don't need anybody who is helping 17 year old girls run away from home thinking he's the champion for the cause.

quote:

im assuming at the end of your paragraph youre referencing in the particular girl in question in this case--people use the word "grooming" in instances like this always in an indicting manner, again, telling me their minds are already made up on the issue of that what the guy did was wrong. he's a predator who groomed his prey, as opposed to a man who liked younger women and courted one. if she was 17, she's "groomed;" if she's 18, she's "pursued" or "sought after" or "chased" much in the same way men have been doing so with women since whenever. your saying "manipulating" is indicative of thinking that the girl didn't make her own choices in the matter and was a victim of a sort of mental/emotional plot, as opposed to the guys genuine interest in her and her genuine interest in him.

In my opinion, "grooming" is probably the best term. I know what I'm about to say is probably going to be confusing because some of the way we phrase things as kinky people are also used by non kink people to describe certain areas.

This male person was pretty much in what could be described as a position of power when this whole thing started. You had a very impressionable high school girl who was already start struck with the guy before she ever contacted him due to him being an author of some BDSM books. Almost two sets of class structures from the very beginning because of the age difference regarding what one could do legally and the other couldn't do legally. In this country, we don't allow persons under the age of eighteen to do certain things because of what we now know about human development. That's why we don't allow them to vote, sign legal contracts on their own accord, and a bunch of other different things because most of them aren't advanced enough to understand the consequences of what such things entail.

It's not uncommon among kinky/alternative lifestyle people to have an s-type that is not the person in control of the household money, only is allowed so much money, or have no voice in how money is used. When grown ups do that, I don't have a problem with it because an adult understands what they are getting into. That's not really how it works here because the underage person can't even legally work full time, so if she ever had to get away from this person, she wouldn't have her own earning power to have the resources to do so. The potential existed for her to be trapped where she was, with less common knowledge than the average adult about how to get away from this guy if anything bad happened to her.

No matter how we who indulge in BDSM slice it, law overrides our kinks every. single. time. We have to have laws in place to protect those who can not protect themselves and I think that's what is happening in this case. It really can't be compared to a hundred years ago because we lacked the knowledge, the legal structure, and protections that we have now. One of the reasons the Mann Act came about was very specifically because people were being forced into prostitution after being transported from one place to another and no way for them to leave.

quote:

none of that still really gets to the heart of why/how its immoral or wrong such that we've made, seemingly anyways, such a change from a century ago, to present times.

id love to read a giant book on this topic!

I think it very possible that a giant book could be written on the subject and it has the potential to be very interesting. How these things relate to BDSM. How these things relate to law. From a number of angles.

Heck, ten years from now, it would be interesting to read a book just about this case from the perspective of the person that would then-be 27. Whether she will see herself as having been groomed or not, whether she decides to remain in kink or not, what really happened, etc. She has the potential of having something here that could make her some money via a book of her own.

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RE: Popular BDSM educator/author arrested - 1/11/2016 5:14:54 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

I don't know the facts of the particular case, or the guy in question, but from the outside looking in, just looking at the words you've used to describe it:

id say that the guy had a prior conviction, or restraining order, concerning sexual misconduct is immaterial to the larger question at hand. in fact it even clouds the issue---people can look at the guy and say "see, convicted predator!" and then whatever he does after that fact that's sexually controversial just flows naturally from that and is more of the same. his present actions are already judged by his previous ones.

im assuming at the end of your paragraph youre referencing in the particular girl in question in this case--people use the word "grooming" in instances like this always in an indicting manner, again, telling me their minds are already made up on the issue of that what the guy did was wrong. he's a predator who groomed his prey, as opposed to a man who liked younger women and courted one. if she was 17, she's "groomed;" if she's 18, she's "pursued" or "sought after" or "chased" much in the same way men have been doing so with women since whenever. your saying "manipulating" is indicative of thinking that the girl didn't make her own choices in the matter and was a victim of a sort of mental/emotional plot, as opposed to the guys genuine interest in her and her genuine interest in him.

none of that still really gets to the heart of why/how its immoral or wrong such that we've made, seemingly anyways, such a change from a century ago, to present times.

id love to read a giant book on this topic!

There are cases where an argument for 'mature older teen knows what she is doing, and there is a genuine connection to this older man, and who are we to judge if they are knowingly entering into this" can be made.

BUT THIS???
This is a man who pleaded guilty to sexual assault with intent to rape, which result in a court order that prevents him from contacting his only child. At that point he was put on the sexual offender registry for a period of time.

Once the sexual offender registry period lapsed, he began operating under another name, at one time even stumping for Mitt Romney, a position that ended the minute that info about his personal life was brought to life.

Then, under yet a 3rd pseudomyn, he begins publishing bdsm materials and sets himself up as a leader and educator in the bdsm world, whereupon a 16 year old girl contacts him on Facebook, and after a year of communications she runs away from home and is found at his residence, along with evidence that he knowingly and willfully continued to engage her despite her age, and despite the fact that he knew his actions were illegal, as evidence shows he was trying to hide her presence and cover their trail. He made her ditch her phone. He overlooked the fact that she could still access Facebook elsewhere and 'check in' at his residence, which is posted on her timeline for all her friends and family to see.

Want to pick a test case for advancing younger women/older men relationships. Feel free to do so. I know of cases where the relationship was sincere and resulted in a happy, healthy love-life for the couple.

Want to pick a test case for advancing the cause of bdsm and consensual kink? I am all over that. I know some people who would more than happy to help with that.

This ain't the case. ITs cases like this that make any real, sincere relationships look suspicious.

This is the kind of case that ends up as a mini-series on Lifetime showing how predatory old perverts prey on young, impressionable girls that are too young to know any better. LP was right-if she had not checked in on Facebook, if no one had ever known she was there, who knows what would have happened? She would have been stuck there, very likely with no way to communicate with people outside of the home and no where to go for help.

And the fact that he made a name for himself in the bdsm world, a published/acclaimed author no less, just makes the rest of the community look that much worse.

(in reply to bounty44)

RE: Popular BDSM educator/author arrested - 1/11/2016 5:29:36 PM

Cell

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quote:

LadyPact:

No matter how we who indulge in BDSM slice it, law overrides our kinks every. single. time.

Hmmm... In the case of protecting minors... yes. But it's hard for me to accept this statement generally. I don't know if this thread is the best place to discus the merit of laws determing the nature of your personal relationships as I'd very much like to keep any discussion regarding breaking the law in pursuing a BDSM relationship seperate from any discussion of minors. I will say however, that I support any relationship or activity involving (and limited to) consenting adults of sound mind, as a matter of personal liberty.

And... I'll also add that I've always felt free to air my opinions on this message board, whatever they might be, but recently... Is it just me being paranoid did that recent thread about a man trying to find Johns to whore out his 19yo friend just seem like a really obvious LE sting? Targeted at pinning prostitution charges on unsuspecting BDSM people... So much of WIITWD is at the mercy of the prevailing legal qualms of the state or time that we're in... The thought of having LE coming in here, trying to pin BS charges on BDSM practitioners turns the stomach quite frankly...

< Message edited by Cell -- 1/11/2016 5:41:04 PM >

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RE: Popular BDSM educator/author arrested - 1/11/2016 6:07:35 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cell

quote:

LadyPact:

No matter how we who indulge in BDSM slice it, law overrides our kinks every. single. time.

Hmmm... In the case of protecting minors... yes. But it's hard for me to accept this statement generally. I don't know if this thread is the best place to discus the merit of laws determing the nature of your personal relationships as I'd very much like to keep any discussion regarding breaking the law in pursuing a BDSM relationship seperate from any discussion of minors. I will say however, that I support any relationship or activity involving (and limited to) consenting adults of sound mind, as a matter of personal liberty.

LP has it right. Even in the context of a personal, established relationship. The law trumps bdsm every time. The law says that you cannot consent to being assaulted. Period.

There have actually been cases where participants in a scene videotaped themselves giving consent beforehand, only to use that very video as evidence for the prosecution later in court.

Now, realistically, if you do something like that and someone tried to have you prosecuted for it, would you actually be prosecuted? Maybe not. Entirely up to the prosecutor whether or not to pursue it. But that is where the law lies it-at the prosecutor's discretion. Have a zealous prosecutor? You better say your Hail Mary's because the law is written to screw you in that regard. You are at the mercy of the discretion of the people enforcing the law-but the law itself calls it assault. Period.

There is a movement within the National Coalition for Sexual Freedom (NCSF) right now to lobby to get that changed, but it hasn't happened yet and I have not kept up on whether or not progress is being made.

(in reply to Cell)

RE: Popular BDSM educator/author arrested - 1/11/2016 10:11:25 PM

Cell

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quote:

Wayward5oul:
The law says that you cannot consent to being assaulted. Period.

Does it? I assume you're speaking about American laws. In Aust I'm pretty sure things that would normally be considered assult, aren't considered as such if it was consentual. I'd find it interesting if the 'land of the free' lags behind in this respect.

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RE: Popular BDSM educator/author arrested - 1/11/2016 10:17:10 PM

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I think you may be right Cell.................the law can't prosecute if the one who is assaulted refuses to press charges, so that becomes consensual assault I would say

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RE: Popular BDSM educator/author arrested - 1/12/2016 4:08:48 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cell

quote:

Wayward5oul:
The law says that you cannot consent to being assaulted. Period.

Does it? I assume you're speaking about American laws. In Aust I'm pretty sure things that would normally be considered assult, aren't considered as such if it was consentual. I'd find it interesting if the 'land of the free' lags behind in this respect.

Yes, I am referring to American laws, with the case in the OP having started this discussion.

If a person gives consent, then afterwards claims assault, the law is on their side even if they are record as having given consent prior to the act.

If there is evidence of the act, then even if the bottom has no wish to press charges, and says it was consensual, a zealous prosecutor can still pursue the case. Reasons for doing so elude me, but it can and does happen. I attended a lecture not too long ago given by a lawyer who specializes in bdsm law, and he made it very clear this was the case. He presented some example cases, including ones he had worked, but I can't remember them right now. I'll look later. But I have had this discussion with others current posters who have the same understanding, so maybe they will chime in in the meantime.

(in reply to Cell)

RE: Popular BDSM educator/author arrested - 1/12/2016 4:54:41 AM

Cell

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Seems pretty much like moral totalitarianism lol. So why don't you agree with me?
(P.S. I'm saying, that government shouldn't try and police the private lives of consenting adults.)

< Message edited by Cell -- 1/12/2016 4:59:38 AM >

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RE: Popular BDSM educator/author arrested - 1/12/2016 5:41:34 AM

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I never said anything about agreeing or disagreeing with you on anything in terms of legal issues. I was just reiterating that LP was correct in her statement that the law is against you every time when it comes to bdsm.

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RE: Popular BDSM educator/author arrested - 1/12/2016 5:57:35 AM

Cell

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Hmm, and yet you're here ^_~
Looks like your kink is overiding the law. Welcome to the revolution.

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RE: Popular BDSM educator/author arrested - 1/12/2016 6:24:29 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cell
Hmmm... In the case of protecting minors... yes. But it's hard for me to accept this statement generally. I don't know if this thread is the best place to discus the merit of laws determing the nature of your personal relationships as I'd very much like to keep any discussion regarding breaking the law in pursuing a BDSM relationship seperate from any discussion of minors. I will say however, that I support any relationship or activity involving (and limited to) consenting adults of sound mind, as a matter of personal liberty.

I completely understand the funky feeling about discussing this in relation to those under eighteen. I'll give my own admission of trying to word things in such a way that almost seems like gymnastics at times because I'm not terribly comfortable with it, either. Unfortunately, that is the legal case and the age of the girl is what makes it a legal case.

Very much, I try to keep the position of everybody is consenting and it's your dynamic, so it's your decision. I'm having some trouble with that due to the girl's age. I'm kind of weighing with the idea that, if she had been mature enough to understand the severity of the decision, waiting to be of age would have been the better option. He, at 59, there should have been no question, because then we would have been dealing with two consenting adults. Huge age gap but I wouldn't have had anything to say.

We all get the deal that nobody can consent to being the receiver of S/m by the letter of the law, and yes, all it takes is one over zealous person to make somebody's life miserable about that. I'd like to see us get to the point where people engaging in the activities in their bedrooms somehow be separated from that because, I agree, when you are dealing with two consenting adults. The question always becomes how do we deal with law in such a way that it can be written that people wanting to have fun can do that, while still protecting those who aren't really having fun, if you get my meaning.

quote:

And... I'll also add that I've always felt free to air my opinions on this message board, whatever they might be, but recently... Is it just me being paranoid did that recent thread about a man trying to find Johns to whore out his 19yo friend just seem like a really obvious LE sting? Targeted at pinning prostitution charges on unsuspecting BDSM people... So much of WIITWD is at the mercy of the prevailing legal qualms of the state or time that we're in... The thought of having LE coming in here, trying to pin BS charges on BDSM practitioners turns the stomach quite frankly...

I'm not going to tell you that you are paranoid. (I hope I'll still be within forum guidelines saying this.) I say that ad and was tempted to say, "Dude, this is not the time."

That may have been a case of folks wanting to explore the fantasy, but as soon as I saw that ad, two things crossed my mind. One was, this is a bad set up for any top, and you'd better be very wary of any ad that says "go through me so she will be surprised." Huge red flag to me. No way to know the woman is consenting? It made me wish I had that link to the story about the guy who fell for an ad just like that and went to jail because the woman had no clue she was being set up to be harmed.

The other was, we do know that LE has had a presence here. (I went looking for the human trafficking thread as an example but I'm not finding it.) I don't think people should believe they did that sting and no longer have interest in this place. It's certainly something to keep in mind.

Edited, for all things, to remember to close the font color.

< Message edited by LadyPact -- 1/12/2016 6:35:38 AM >

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RE: Popular BDSM educator/author arrested - 1/12/2016 9:36:34 AM

Cell

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I heard on the radio something like the US has 5% of the world's population but 25% of the worlds prison population... And I can see why, when what you guys are saying about US law seems to paint all us BDSM people as criminals that no one has bothered to prosecute yet. It doesn't sit well with me at all. It definitely sounds to me like you guys need some better provisions for consent in your legal system, and I think the possibility of a third party or the state being able to prosecute an individual, against the wishes of the so called 'victim', is pretty BS. (Just speaking generally, not in regards to the OP case.)

< Message edited by Cell -- 1/12/2016 9:48:15 AM >

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RE: Popular BDSM educator/author arrested - 1/12/2016 9:47:50 AM

Cell

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quote:

LadyPact:
Edited, for all things, to remember to close the font color.

Hey, if I had the power, there's a ton of spelling and grammar errors in my old posts that I'd still go back and edit lol
They haunt me... o_o

(in reply to LadyPact)

RE: Popular BDSM educator/author arrested - 1/12/2016 10:27:11 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cell
I heard on the radio something like the US has 5% of the world's population but 25% of the worlds prison population... And I can see why, when what you guys are saying about US law seems to paint all us BDSM people as criminals that no one has bothered to prosecute yet. It doesn't sit well with me at all. It definitely sounds to me like you guys need some better provisions for consent in your legal system, and I think the possibility of a third party or the state being able to prosecute an individual, against the wishes of the so called 'victem', is pretty BS. (Just speaking generally, not in regards to the OP case.)

I think the prison population has more to do with the war on drugs than any perceived war on kink.

We do need better provisions, but we also have to consider that the kink community is also a part of a greater community. The optimal approach is to advance our freedoms, while we still protect those who need protection. It has to be both or we will have people who fall through the cracks.

If we really want people outside of the kink community to want to work with us about our consent based adult relationships, we're also going to have to have a strong showing that lack of consent isn't what we mean when we are talking about that. If, when the cops show up, we want them to leave us alone when we say we're engaging in consensual kink, we're going to have to spearhead that by showing the non kink community that it's the consent that's important to us. It's the only thing that differentiates us from those who are harming others.

I catch a lot of heck from some members of the CnC crowd because I have the same view regarding law vrs BDSM. The give consent once theory is fine, as long as everybody is happy/content with the dynamic, it's all good. The minute somebody wants out, the dynamic is over and consent has ceased. That's where law should be glaringly superseding kink because once that person wants to leave, we have to make sure their rights are protected then, too.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to Cell)

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