schools of thought.. an of shoot

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leakylee -> schools of thought.. an of shoot (7/19/2006 11:36:54 PM)
In reading the thread on the safe words, there seems to be two main school of thought on them. The first being that they have paramount place in our play, and the second being that can be there or not. My question is how did you come to your decision? Was it by experience? Did a session somewhere light the bulb that confirmed this path for you? Was it from the numberous sources available in researching and learning? Thank you for sharing Lee

BitaTruble -> RE: schools of thought.. an of shoot (7/19/2006 11:49:38 PM)
My first Master used the stoplight words from the very beginning, so for me, it's just the way I've always done things because that's the way I was first taught. Since I view it as just another tool in the arsenal of communication, I see no reason to change it now. The most important communication tool is still and always will be body language for me. Celeste

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: schools of thought.. an of shoot (7/19/2006 11:51:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BitaTruble My first Master used the stoplight words from the very beginning, so for me, it's just the way I've always done things because that's the way I was first taught. Since I view it as just another tool in the arsenal of communication, I see no reason to change it now. The most important communication tool is still and always will be body language for me. Celeste Pretty much ditto except that my first owners never wanted to use them so I never got into the habit of them or found them necessary. But I feel exactly the same way for exactly the same reasons.

ownedgirlie -> RE: schools of thought.. an of shoot (7/19/2006 11:55:43 PM)
It wasn't my decision. Master said no safewords, I asked why, we spoke about it awhile as I was allowed to ask as much as I needed to about it, and that was that. I've never felt the need for one, since he is in tune with me and reads me well. The times I have felt distressed, I have been able to communicate it so he knows. It's up to him what to do with it from there.

BitaTruble -> RE: schools of thought.. an of shoot (7/20/2006 12:04:38 AM)
quote: The times I have felt distressed, I have been able to communicate it so he knows. It's up to him what to do with it from there. I think this is a really important point here and just wanted to add my own two cents. The feedback which I may give to Himself is just that.. feedback. What he chooses to do at that point is up to him. If he wishes, he can and will continue regardless of what's going on and regardless of what I communicate or how I communicate, and this I know and I'm comfortable and trust him to do as he sees fit. It would be rather foolish to run your favorite car into a tree just because you can and he likes me a whole lot more than he likes his car .. and he is not a foolish man. Celeste

leakylee -> RE: schools of thought.. an of shoot (7/20/2006 12:06:21 AM)
Thank ya'll both for responding. My first service experince was unique. The Domme that brought me into the lifestyle was truly a loving and a total learning experience for me. Safe words were tried, but it seemed like you never knew when I was gonna float off. I think we spent as much time giggling and talking as we did in serious sessions. I think she knew my body better than I did somedays. lee

bandit25 -> RE: schools of thought.. an of shoot (7/20/2006 2:27:16 AM)
I agree, but it seems kinda strange that those who are adamant about using them (not everyone) do not accept those who are not and the reverse seems to be true also. I don't understand that. If, for example, Celeste is comfortable not using one who am I to say that she needs one? Of course, in the case of a newbie or playing with someone for the first time, I think they are a good idea (whether used or not); however, I also understand that the most important thing is to know the person you are playing with. To know that s/he will stop when you ask. Again, I am speaking primarily of new people.

SirCumsSlut -> RE: schools of thought.. an of shoot (7/20/2006 4:08:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leakylee In reading the thread on the safe words, there seems to be two main school of thought on them. The first being that they have paramount place in our play, and the second being that can be there or not. My question is how did you come to your decision? Was it by experience? Did a session somewhere light the bulb that confirmed this path for you? Was it from the numberous sources available in researching and learning? Thank you for sharing Lee In the beginning of our journey together, Sir insisted I use safe words, as this was a new experience for me. My safe word was "Thank You, Sir". As Sir and I have grown on this journey, my safe word "Thank You, Sir" has turned from a safe word to me wanting more. Safe words are no longer used between us, but if Sir sees that something is just too much for me (which rarely happens), he stops that particular play and gives me just a few moments to breath, before he moves on to "torture" another part of me.

Ariel -> RE: schools of thought.. an of shoot (7/20/2006 4:27:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BitaTruble My first Master used the stoplight words from the very beginning, so for me, it's just the way I've always done things because that's the way I was first taught. Since I view it as just another tool in the arsenal of communication, I see no reason to change it now. The most important communication tool is still and always will be body language for me. Celeste I agree entirely with Celeste, it is simply another tool. I also believe that any responsible Top, or Dom, will monitor the body language very closely, and if they see the need for change they will act accordingly. I am of the mindset that I enjoy healthy and working toys, so there would never be a need to damage said toy... That being said, it should not matter to anyone else what another person's choice is. waves to lee...[:)]

agirl -> RE: schools of thought.. an of shoot (7/20/2006 4:52:44 AM)
Hello leakylee, In answer to your question...I don't have a safeword, nor do I want one. In my personal circumstances, it's simply not needed nor desired, and yes, it was from experience......of my Master. It obviously varies from person to person, relationship to relationship but me NOT having one is not a great deal different to someone else HAVING one, necessarily. A system of understanding is already in place, it's not a designated expression or word but based on the fact that he's read me for a long time, in so many circumstances, that it's simply not necessary. I wouldn't desire one because of my personal view of the way I submit....not anyone elses. I can't do half measures, and for me, with the nature I have, it would be an utter nightmare if I retained any control, for any purpose.........and that is exactly how I'd see it. I either give it ALL,or, I give nothing worth having. Would I use a safeword if it was given to me?...... In some circumstances I'd use it for all the wrong reasons and in others, I'd be so ridiculously stubborn that I'd NOT use it purely for that reason. It would make a mockery of the sensible notion FOR having them. Not particulary noble or honourable etc.........just truthful. I trust him to make decisions for me, so I trust him to make them ALL. That's just how it is for me. Regards,agirl

mistoferin -> RE: schools of thought.. an of shoot (7/20/2006 4:59:09 AM)
I have had reason to stop three scenes, at least temporarily, over the course of my life. I didn't use a safeword to stop any of them. Normal communication works just fine. I have had Dominants insist that I have a safeword just in case...I will no longer play with any Dominant who is insistent upon it. I have had one Dominant who suggested that I use supercalafragilisticexpialidocious....yeah right...like that is easier! I have seen or known of many instances where scenes went bad due to a safeword. I have seen several times a Dominant who should have stopped but didn't because the sub didn't or couldn't safeword. I have seen at least one instance where that resulted in allegations of abuse. I have spoken far too often with submissives who should have safeworded and regretted not doing so after the fact....because they were too embarassed to say it...didn't want to let the Dominant down....didn't want everyone to think they were a wimp. I have talked to too many new submissives who have moved way too fast and relied upon their safe word as a safety net...only to have it ignored by someone they should have never trusted. I have seen Dominants who repeatedly take every sub they are with to their safeword because they can't take the time to be observant enough or get to know their partner enough to read any other kind of cue....and I have seen those subs come out of those scenes feeling traumatized and like failures. I don't care if anyone feels the need to use a safeword...that is their own personal decision. As I stated before, I won't involve myself in a scene that is dependent upon the use of one. What I don't like and won't accept is someone trying to change my personal view and convince me of their "validity" by pushing it at me, I don't like people telling me I am an unsafe player or crazy for not using one....and I don't like Dominants trying to insist that I do use one.

brattastic -> RE: schools of thought.. an of shoot (7/20/2006 5:13:04 AM)
It depends on how long you have been together.

mistoferin -> RE: schools of thought.. an of shoot (7/20/2006 5:16:10 AM)
It doesn't matter one iota to me how long I have been with someone. I don't need code words when I can communicate normally just fine.

Mercnbeth -> RE: schools of thought.. an of shoot (7/20/2006 5:49:56 AM)
If you don't or can't trust your partner I guess they are necessary. But the reality is they are dangerous. A dom may go further than he is comfortable because the sub hasn't spoken "yellow" or it's equivalent. A submissive, to "prove" they are tough, may hold back on using a safe word to not disappoint the dom. You're assigning accountability an power in a scene to words. The dominant relinquishes all responsibility, the submissive never completely surrenders. By their nature, they inhibit communication. During the "getting to know" stage, after the "after-care", I got to know my partners by discussing how they felt during the scene. I asked if I was too harsh, not harsh enough. We discussed everything from technique to style. The communication opened up the opportunity to discuss expanding limits. It facilitated advancing the relationship and becoming closer with the other person. If a safe-word was used, the only question would be; "did you come close to safe-wording?" Which to me sounds very much like, "Did you cum?" If you have to ask, maybe you need to know your partner a little better. Throughout my formative years, I had a few sexual one night stands, but for this reason, I never had a "meet & beat" encounter. I felt, and still believe, the experience of domination and submission requires an elementary intimacy deeper than a physical act. The bottom line is, safe words are a short-cut to taking the time necessary to know your partner and develop the trust required not to need a safe word. Sometimes short-cuts get you to your destination sometimes you get totally lost and never reach your goal.

Roisseynpromise -> RE: schools of thought.. an of shoot (7/20/2006 5:54:41 AM)
with a new or first time slave ,I discuss the use of safe words, simply not a bad idea. having said that in 30+ years I have never had a slave have to use a safe word. I am not overly sadistic and trust strongly My ability to read the slave/subs true limits.

agirl -> RE: schools of thought.. an of shoot (7/20/2006 6:17:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth If you don't or can't trust your partner I guess they are necessary. But the reality is they are dangerous. A dom may go further than he is comfortable because the sub hasn't spoken "yellow" or it's equivalent. A submissive, to "prove" they are tough, may hold back on using a safe word to not disappoint the dom. You're assigning accountability an power in a scene to words. The dominant relinquishes all responsibility, the submissive never completely surrenders. By their nature, they inhibit communication. During the "getting to know" stage, after the "after-care", I got to know my partners by discussing how they felt during the scene. I asked if I was too harsh, not harsh enough. We discussed everything from technique to style. The communication opened up the opportunity to discuss expanding limits. It facilitated advancing the relationship and becoming closer with the other person. If a safe-word was used, the only question would be; "did you come close to safe-wording?" Which to me sounds very much like, "Did you cum?" If you have to ask, maybe you need to know your partner a little better. Throughout my formative years, I had a few sexual one night stands, but for this reason, I never had a "meet & beat" encounter. I felt, and still believe, the experience of domination and submission requires an elementary intimacy deeper than a physical act. The bottom line is, safe words are a short-cut to taking the time necessary to know your partner and develop the trust required not to need a safe word. Sometimes short-cuts get you to your destination sometimes you get totally lost and never reach your goal. Hello Mercnbeth, It's very subjective and tied to the type of relationship and style of bdsm activity that people take part in, in their lives and how they play, who they play with and so on......and maybe how they interpret and express their submission. I asked my Master to have control......not partial, not subject to , not only when, not maybe if.........All, meant, all....at all times.........in all circumstances.......but it's a long standing relationship.....I couldn't do that with anyone but him. agirl

Caretakr -> RE: schools of thought.. an of shoot (7/20/2006 6:21:09 AM)
It's like this...If you care, simple communication will work, and just paying attention. And if you do not, it won't save you anyhow.

hizgeorgiapeach -> RE: schools of thought.. an of shoot (7/20/2006 6:34:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leakylee My question is how did you come to your decision? Was it by experience? Did a session somewhere light the bulb that confirmed this path for you? Was it from the numberous sources available in researching and learning? I came to the place that I am, decision wise concerning things like safewords, through experience. No single scene threw the switch on the internal bulb - a long series of them did. To many times suffering outright Damage at the hands of those who considered a safeword a manipulation attempt on my part. Ordinary communication didn't work with those people any better than a safeword did. It was considered in the same light, and they mistakenly assumed from some sort of top/domly self rightous highhorse that they automatically knew what was "best" for me, what was "enough" for me, or what was "to much" for me because they were the dom. You might say in the long run it got beatten into me not to trust someone to know me well enough to consistantly guage my reactions, and doing so is abrogating my responcibility to myself. Erin mentioned knowing several situations that went bad because a safeword was in place. My personal experience has been diametrically opposite over the course of my life. I don't personally know anyone who had things go bad because they HAD a safeword - but I've personally had things go VERY badly because I wasn't allowed a safeword or communication in scene was patently ignored to keep me from "manipulating" the dom. quote: original : Mercandbeth But the reality is they are dangerous. A dom may go further than he is comfortable because the sub hasn't spoken "yellow" or it's equivalent. A submissive, to "prove" they are tough, may hold back on using a safe word to not disappoint the dom. You're assigning accountability an power in a scene to words. The dominant relinquishes all responsibility, the submissive never completely surrenders. This comes down to personal responcibility. On the part of both people playing. The responcibility of the top is to not go someplace he/she isn't comfortable going. They, at least, aren't tied to a cross or table, Unable to simply Stop if they feel uncomfortable continuing. They aren't in a position where they are at someone else's mercy - they're only at the mercy of their own pride. If they allow pride to overcome good sense, or push them to do something that they aren't comfortable with, they have no one to blame but themselves. The responcibility of the bottom is to use whatever methods come to hand to communicate with the top, concerning their individual responces to what's going on. Each person is responcible for their own body. Abrogating personal responcibility to the top by refusing to communicate - whether by safeword or "regular" communication - is reckless and negligent. It is a means to justify placing blame on someone else for our negligence in looking after our own best interests. A bottom who is trying to "prove" something - is trying to prove it to themselves subconsciously, not to the person he/she is playing with. Bottom line - only the person themselves can ALWAYS judge how they feel about what's going on, both physically and emotionally. Unless and until science develops a means to actually switch consciousness with another person - that will remain the case. Expecting soemone else to always accurately figure out what's going on with us as individuals is foolhardy at best. (standard disclaimer - milage, opinion, yada yada )

mistoferin -> RE: schools of thought.. an of shoot (7/20/2006 6:45:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hizgeorgiapeach I came to the place that I am, decision wise concerning things like safewords, through experience. No single scene threw the switch on the internal bulb - a long series of them did. To many times suffering outright Damage at the hands of those who considered a safeword a manipulation attempt on my part. Ordinary communication didn't work with those people any better than a safeword did. It was considered in the same light, and they mistakenly assumed from some sort of top/domly self rightous highhorse that they automatically knew what was "best" for me, what was "enough" for me, or what was "to much" for me because they were the dom. You might say in the long run it got beatten into me not to trust someone to know me well enough to consistantly guage my reactions, and doing so is abrogating my responcibility to myself. Erin mentioned knowing several situations that went bad because a safeword was in place. My personal experience has been diametrically opposite over the course of my life. I don't personally know anyone who had things go bad because they HAD a safeword - but I've personally had things go VERY badly because I wasn't allowed a safeword or communication in scene was patently ignored to keep me from "manipulating" the dom. In these paragraphs though, you yourself say that having a safe word would not have made a difference. You say that communication wasn't allowed or wouldn't have worked any better than a safeword. The failure of or the lack of satisfaction of the scene(s) was due to trusting and placing yourself in the hands of someone that didn't deserve to have that trust.

agirl -> RE: schools of thought.. an of shoot (7/20/2006 6:50:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Caretakr It's like this...If you care, simple communication will work, and just paying attention. And if you do not, it won't save you anyhow. If that's in response to me, you're preaching to the converted.

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