RE: schools of thought.. an of shoot

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yourMissTress -> RE: schools of thought.. an of shoot (7/20/2006 2:34:16 PM)
erin, thank you. Here is a perfect example of why I read you, and many others with a very open mind. Without being rude, condescending, or downright insulting you have explained your position, how you came to it, and the reasoning behind it. You've not belittled anyone or attempted to use their words to make yourself feel superior. More to the point of this thread, My view on safewords (and something else that's a very hot topic which I won't mention here and hijack the thread) have been evolving and changing over the last few years. I was mentored by a pro, started out as a pro, she taught Me all she knew about BDSM and safewords were very important to her, so I used them. I'd rarely given a thought to safewords over the years, I took them as necessary and left it at that. I do use open communication and after a scene or three with a new partner, come to know them and their communication style well. Once I got to that point I took their safeword away (because I was taking away any control they had in the scene). My girl, apb, has never had a safeword with Me, we just never discussed it. I had never thought someone might rely on the safeword alone and not pay attention to their partners physical or verbal cues. It just never occured to Me that anyone would be so stupid. Safewords are simply another communication tool. No, they are not better than open, honest and straightforward communication. As I said in the last thread, safewords, like any other tool are only as good as the people using them. The bottom has to use it and the top has to honor it. A safeword, like a safecall or anything else will not keep anyone safe, it can however be a useful tool.

hizgeorgiapeach -> RE: schools of thought.. an of shoot (7/20/2006 2:51:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth quote: What is it costing them other than possibly a bit of egoism, for me not to have subconscious doubts about their reliability? If it is ego on either side, I'd agree it's wrong. From my perspective in the scenario I created, it's costing you both the one thing neither of you have but both are attempting to obtain; a trusting relationship. Merc, while I can appreciate what you're saying - I'm of the firm belief that a relationship based on something that makes us inherantly uncomfortable (for Whatever reasons we have for that inherant discomfort) is not going to work in the long run. The type of scenario you present simply says to me that - bluntly - that top and I wouldn't be Compatible for a trusting relationship, and both of us need to look elsewhere. Sure, we could Try to make it work - but in the end it's simply going to make us both miserable and regret that we didn't forgo the attempt to play with someone more compatible in the first place. There are areas that each of us is willing to compromise on, and areas where self presevation at the subconscious levels kicks in where we become NOT willing to compromise. I'm confident that such a person will no doubt eventually find someone for whom their personal areas of non-negotiablity mesh, just as I will, assuming that I ever get to the point where I actually want a Relationship again rather than casual friendships, fuckbuddies, and occassional play partners. I don't feel that I should simply "settle" for someone that I know instinctively (because of such an inherantly different opinion on what I consider a major issue) I won't work out with. I don't feel that Anyone should settle for something that their gut reaction tells them is inherantly wrong for them on some level - whether that is due to differences of opinion about something like a safeword, or differences of opinion about limits, religion, politics, or if the sky is blue vs green. I've settled for "almost good enough" in the past - and it was a disaster for both of us. quote:* I never had a "meet & beat" encounter. I felt, and still believe, the experience of domination and submission requires an elementary intimacy deeper than a physical act. Major difference right there. You don't do casual play, I don't do power exchange - where they work for you and yours, I've found that power exchange is nothing but a massive headache in the making for me. The two extremes make for very different perspectives - and very different desires for outcome when dealing with someone else or deciding on things like whether safewords are an acceptable communication tool. When you were still "looking" it was with the understanding that what you wanted was a commited, long standing relationship. I "look" with the understanding that I have my own life, I'm happy with that life without any sort of permanent attachments, and if someone wants to deal with me on a personal level they shouldn't be looking for power exchange, commitment, or exclusivity either sexually or in SM scening. Neither of us is Wrong - we're simply at very different ends of the spectrum in what we want and look for. quote: Original : Juliaociana quote: Original Mistoferin I have spoken far too often with submissives who should have safeworded and regretted not doing so after the fact....because they were too embarassed to say it...didn't want to let the Dominant down....didn't want everyone to think they were a wimp. I highlighted what you said, because I find this passage in your post to be a misuse of a tool. If you use a screwdriver for what it isn't intended for you could hurt someone, same for safewords. If you do not use a tool properly, you cannot blame the tool, but instead the person using the tool (kinda like that weapons thread recently pointed out, it is the people that misuse guns, the guns are just tools..smiles). Exactly. Do not blame the tool (the safeword or other communication device) for someone being dumb enough, pressured enough, or scared of possible boogyman consequences enough to use the tool improperly or refusing to use all the tools they have at their disposal. It is a failing of the Person - NOT of the Tool. That is no different, in a BDSM sense, in blaming the flogger if you happen to play with someone who doesn't know how to properly use one and they injure you or someone else because of it. quote: Original : Mistoferin Yes, safewords are a tool....one that I have seen misused far more often than I have ever seen it used correctly....or maybe it's just that the failures stand out more. I think it's simply that the failures stand out more than the times when it's used correctly. Not much different, really, than car wrecks and plane crashes. You hear about the ugly 50 car pileup that caused 13 deaths this evening during rush hour traffic after work, but not about the 6.2 million people who got home from work without any incident. You hear about the plane crash that killed everyone on board - while nothing is said about the 5000 flights that same day which took off and landed without incident or accident. It wouldn't be News Worthy to say "8 Million people got home on time and without injury," or, "There were no plane crashes today - aviation is running smoothly" or "No small children found an ill concealed weapon and shot their best friend accidentally this afternoon." It's not News Worthy because it is the Norm rather than the Exception.

juliaoceania -> RE: schools of thought.. an of shoot (7/20/2006 3:44:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin or maybe it's just that the failures stand out more. The failure happened probably before the safeword was uttered perhaps? If the scene had been going well the safeword would never have come into play in the first place. In my mind this is like comparing a taxi driver to an ambulance driver, and asking the ambulance driver why the people he picks up die more often than the the people the taxi driver gives rides to. Something in the scene failed. So when you have seen a safeword used it was because something went wrong, it is hardly surprising that the failures stood out more, without the failure the safeword would not have been used in the first place... or maybe I misread this.

SweetSarijane -> RE: schools of thought.. an of shoot (7/20/2006 5:10:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: windchymes Using or not using safewords isn't really the major issue. What really makes me cringe is imagining young, uneducated subs- and slaves-to-be who are dying to wear a collar, any collar, just a collar NOW, reading these posts that tout the wonder and thrill and unnecessity of using any kind of safeword. And then hooking up with another young and uneducated person deciding he's a Master Who Doesn't Allow Safewords and then beats the hell out of her or injures her. (Not aiming this next comment at anyone in particular!) When you basically speak with pride about not needing to use, or not being allowed to use safewords, it may give someone much more inexperienced the idea that safewords are something to shy away from...and thus, they end up being one of those subs who are afraid to use them when they should be. I think the education needs to be that safewords are GOOD if you need them or want them, and there is no shame in using one. But in the right situations, it's fine not to have them. But you are no "better" a sub or slave if you do use one than if you don't. And protecting your own self is paramount. Don't depend on someone else to protect you until you know for sure that they can....and will! Very good points. I agree that using or not using safewords has nothing to do with how good a sub/slave one is. It's in my opinion personal choice. I also agree that protecting yourself is very important as well, just don't rely on a special word to protect you. Newbies should be educated on safewords in a way that knowing fully both sides of the debate, they can choose for themselves whether or not they feel they need or want one. I myself see no need for special words when open communication accomplishes the same thing. You bring up the point of people saying they are unecessary and proudly stating they don't use them, etc. and that that can make newbies afraid to use them. There is also the other side of the coin with those that are rabidly for safewords and those/they can also cause problems with newbies in the newbie believing they are safe with a safeword and not taking into account that unless that word is honored by the Top it does absolutely no good at all and believing too deeply, relying on them too much can be just as dangerous as not having safewords. It's all about trust whether you use safewords or not. I don't use safewords because the Tops I bottom for use open communication with me throughout the scene. They ask how I'm doing, etc. and watch my reactions and listen to me and any needed adjustments are made based on just communicating. I can understand the possible need for a safeword in a role play situation where no doesn't mean no. I have no problem with those who want or need safewords, there is a house safeword for the play parties I go to, I just prefer and use straight, open communication instead. Just my thoughts and experience.

juliaoceania -> RE: schools of thought.. an of shoot (7/20/2006 5:40:32 PM)
I have to ask, why would anyone play with someone that wouldn't honor a safeword? I do not see how a top honoring a safeword is relevant to a discussion of their use, not having a safeword or having a safeword isn't going to help if someone that has no honor or concern for your welfare is topping you. I think this is outside of the realm of consensuality, which a safeword implies that there is consent between two people... just thoughts

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: schools of thought.. an of shoot (7/20/2006 6:08:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin LA, Computers are expensive...and this too shall pass!...lol. Breathe! breathing If there's one thing that gets to me, it's the use of bad logic as clouded by romantic ideals pretending to be useful safety information. Blech. quote: Awesome post btw...and welcome back, hope you are settling in nicely. Thanks! Good to be back, a nice normalcy in the still settling in chaos. We're going slowly but surely but just received news that the partners friends are coming in from Florida next week and we'll be having the whole Texas gang in to visit so I'm pretty much freaking about getting the whole place presentable by then.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: schools of thought.. an of shoot (7/20/2006 6:10:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania I have to ask, why would anyone play with someone that wouldn't honor a safeword? I do not see how a top honoring a safeword is relevant to a discussion of their use, not having a safeword or having a safeword isn't going to help if someone that has no honor or concern for your welfare is topping you. I think this is outside of the realm of consensuality, which a safeword implies that there is consent between two people... just thoughts I think it's the same reason people refuse to play in private first. Personally for me, if I won't play with someone in private, I certainly won't play with them in public.

WyrdRich -> RE: schools of thought.. an of shoot (7/20/2006 6:22:16 PM)
(fast reply to the OP) We were introduced to SSC very early and deciding on a safeword was not presented as optional. The only thing we ever use it for is a codeword around other people's scenes. If I pause to watch a bit of needle play for instance, she'll lean close and whisper 'cramp' in my ear. It gets the point across without risking an overheard disrespect to somebody else's space.

ExSteelAgain -> RE: schools of thought.. an of shoot (7/20/2006 6:30:50 PM)
Julia, many of us are saying, sure we will honor safe words, but we will also honor direct comments or physical clues we pick up. Afer awhile if the sub knows she can openly say what's wrong, she will just do that instead of saying a safeword. It is much more accurate and easier to say loosen something slightly than to say red, have him ask what the problem is and then respond. It just saves time, but it's all good, whatever works and all that.

juliaoceania -> RE: schools of thought.. an of shoot (7/20/2006 6:36:42 PM)
I understand that and respect that choice ExSteelAgain. I think it is an individual choice. My safewords are standard color system. It is very direct communication. Im not saying anything about anyone else and their system of doing things. My point is that someone that doesn't honor a safeword is probably not someone that would honor direct communication.. so I do not know how direct communication would be superior.

SweetSarijane -> RE: schools of thought.. an of shoot (7/20/2006 6:42:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania I have to ask, why would anyone play with someone that wouldn't honor a safeword? I do not see how a top honoring a safeword is relevant to a discussion of their use, not having a safeword or having a safeword isn't going to help if someone that has no honor or concern for your welfare is topping you. I think this is outside of the realm of consensuality, which a safeword implies that there is consent between two people... just thoughts It's relevence is in, don't think a word is going to keep you safe. That was my meaning. Don't depend on the word to be a magic I'm safe as long as I have it type thing. Whether or not you use a safeword, it is more important that you feel comfortable with the one you're playing with and to be aware that there are tops out there who may not honor a safeword. It happens. Being aware of that and not depending on a word to keep you safe instead of common sense and instinct is something newbies should understand. Yes a safeword can imply consent but it shouldn't be depended on for protection. I hope that makes sense and clarifies better. :)

SweetSarijane -> RE: schools of thought.. an of shoot (7/20/2006 6:48:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania I understand that and respect that choice ExSteelAgain. I think it is an individual choice. My safewords are standard color system. It is very direct communication. Im not saying anything about anyone else and their system of doing things. My point is that someone that doesn't honor a safeword is probably not someone that would honor direct communication.. so I do not know how direct communication would be superior. I wouldn't say either direct communication, or safewords is superior. I think it's more what works best for the individuals. You may have guessed that my preference is direct communication...lol....but that doesn't mean my way is superior...it just works best for me.

liljoy -> RE: schools of thought.. an of shoot (7/20/2006 7:51:20 PM)
erin, i've always had a safe word. i've only once tried to use it. it was back when i was very new and it wasn't "heard" when i screamed it 3 times. Since then there is something in me that has kept me from using it even when looking back i know i should have. With me it would be and has been dangerous for a Dominant to rely only on me safe wording. Where i am right now in my growth i still simply can't say the word. i have learned to be very picky about whom i play with. That said i am going to thunder next weekend and am so so excited lil_joy quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin I have had reason to stop three scenes, at least temporarily, over the course of my life. I didn't use a safeword to stop any of them. Normal communication works just fine. I have had Dominants insist that I have a safeword just in case...I will no longer play with any Dominant who is insistent upon it. I have had one Dominant who suggested that I use supercalafragilisticexpialidocious....yeah right...like that is easier! I have seen or known of many instances where scenes went bad due to a safeword. I have seen several times a Dominant who should have stopped but didn't because the sub didn't or couldn't safeword. I have seen at least one instance where that resulted in allegations of abuse. I have spoken far too often with submissives who should have safeworded and regretted not doing so after the fact....because they were too embarassed to say it...didn't want to let the Dominant down....didn't want everyone to think they were a wimp. I have talked to too many new submissives who have moved way too fast and relied upon their safe word as a safety net...only to have it ignored by someone they should have never trusted. I have seen Dominants who repeatedly take every sub they are with to their safeword because they can't take the time to be observant enough or get to know their partner enough to read any other kind of cue....and I have seen those subs come out of those scenes feeling traumatized and like failures. I don't care if anyone feels the need to use a safeword...that is their own personal decision. As I stated before, I won't involve myself in a scene that is dependent upon the use of one. What I don't like and won't accept is someone trying to change my personal view and convince me of their "validity" by pushing it at me, I don't like people telling me I am an unsafe player or crazy for not using one....and I don't like Dominants trying to insist that I do use one.

juliaoceania -> RE: schools of thought.. an of shoot (7/20/2006 7:59:24 PM)
I use direct communication also, if I have a cramp I say so, if I need more lube I say so, if he is crushing me somewhere I say so. I use the word "red" for only one purpose, it means " I NEED this to stop now". It is a simple word. I have seen others post that safewords will not save you if you cannot speak because of subspace. I can imagine this might be true having dropped suddenly to the point of almost not being able to talk myself. That is why people should make sure their top is talking to them during a scene. The top perhaps should ask questions to see if the bottom can respond.. no response means the play should stop (at least that is what we have discussed between us). This would not work unless the top is controlling the scene and is not RELYING on a submissives safeword, as this word shouldn't replace the control the top has in the scene, it should only protect the submissive... just my thoughts.

ExSteelAgain -> RE: schools of thought.. an of shoot (7/20/2006 8:03:00 PM)
Reading through, I thought of another aspect. The times when the sub is flying and asks for more, yet, she has had a lot and I know it is time to end it. Everything said was for more, no clue was given, but I felt it best to end things for her safety.

mistoferin -> RE: schools of thought.. an of shoot (7/20/2006 8:55:57 PM)
Wow...I go out for a few hours and it will take me days to catch up...lol. I guess this is a good place to start.... quote: ORIGINAL: windchymes What really makes me cringe is imagining young, uneducated subs- and slaves-to-be who are dying to wear a collar, any collar, just a collar NOW, reading these posts that tout the wonder and thrill and unnecessity of using any kind of safeword. And then hooking up with another young and uneducated person deciding he's a Master Who Doesn't Allow Safewords and then beats the hell out of her or injures her. (Not aiming this next comment at anyone in particular!) When you basically speak with pride about not needing to use, or not being allowed to use safewords, it may give someone much more inexperienced the idea that safewords are something to shy away from...and thus, they end up being one of those subs who are afraid to use them when they should be. What really makes me cringe is imagining young, uneducated subs- and slaves-to-be who are dying to wear a collar, any collar, just a collar NOW, reading these posts that tout the necessity of using a safeword and then hooking up with another young and uneducated person who decides he's a Master and then beats the hell out of her or injures her and there she sits wondering why her magical and necessary safe word didn't save her. I am not speaking with pride or presenting myself as superior because I don't use a safe word. I am speaking what seems to me at least, to be common sense. Instead of teaching newbies about the use of code words, I'd prefer to teach them the importance of open, honest and straightforward communication. quote: YourMissTress erin, thank you. And thank you for such kind words. quote: juliaoceania So when you have seen a safeword used it was because something went wrong, it is hardly surprising that the failures stood out more, without the failure the safeword would not have been used in the first place... or maybe I misread this. I think you did misread...at least to a point. Many times the failure occurs because the safe word doesn't get used. quote: My safewords are standard color system. It is very direct communication. I'm not trying to pick on you but I have to say that it is not direct communication. Shouting out a color gives no indication of what is wrong. About 5 years ago I was at a party and I wasn't really paying much attention to the scene that was going on in the corner. Suddenly the submissive on the cross started frantically screaming red.....just as she'd been told to and conditioned to do. That part was great, the scene stopped immediately and those attending raced to get her down. The problem was that she didn't stop screaming red. Everyone rushed to her aid and no one could determine what the problem was. This went on for a full 5 minutes at least with a crowd of people now trying to help. It was a complete and utter clusterfuck. The problem, as it turned out, was that she was writhing so hard that she ruptured a disc in her back. Now here are all these people turning her all different ways trying to find an injury. She did what she was conditioned to do and in her moment of agony and crisis she could not see clear to stop saying red long enough to help the helpers. She could have indeed been further injured by their efforts. All of it could have been avoided had she screamed OMG my back, my back...somethings's wrong. quote: liljoy Since then there is something in me that has kept me from using it even when looking back i know i should have. And there are many subs out there just like you liljoy...and there can be a Dominant on the other end who is skating on very thin ice and not even know it until after the ice has given way and the damage is done. quote: That said i am going to thunder next weekend and am so so excited Hope you have a blast!!! Wow...all of this complication and debate. If there were no such thing as a safe words and we all had to rely upon simple communication we wouldn't even have to be having all of this discussion, no one would ever have to wonder what "school" the other was coming from or what they were taught to do.

SweetSarijane -> RE: schools of thought.. an of shoot (7/20/2006 9:32:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania I use direct communication also, if I have a cramp I say so, if I need more lube I say so, if he is crushing me somewhere I say so. I use the word "red" for only one purpose, it means " I NEED this to stop now". It is a simple word. I have seen others post that safewords will not save you if you cannot speak because of subspace. I can imagine this might be true having dropped suddenly to the point of almost not being able to talk myself. That is why people should make sure their top is talking to them during a scene. The top perhaps should ask questions to see if the bottom can respond.. no response means the play should stop (at least that is what we have discussed between us). This would not work unless the top is controlling the scene and is not RELYING on a submissives safeword, as this word shouldn't replace the control the top has in the scene, it should only protect the submissive... just my thoughts. I agree. It really is the communication between the individuals throughout the scene is so important and can really make the difference. In any scene I'm in, the communication is flowing back and forth, the tops commenting, asking questions, gauging my reactions and watching me extra super close when I start getting to a point that verbalization beyond just sounds is difficult. The house safeword at the parties I go to is red. I know it's there but choose not to use it even as a this NEEDS TO STOP NOW statement. I'm more inclined to just say hold it, stop, problem, too much, etc. edited because I'm too tired to spell.

KennelDeSade2 -> RE: schools of thought.. an of shoot (7/20/2006 11:12:59 PM)
If a girl feels the need for a safeword, then "safeword" has always seemed the easy choice. But I figure that if by the end of a good scene she can remember her own name, let alone a safeword, then I haven't been doing my job! So the utility of a safeword is something I consider questionable.

ownedgirlie -> RE: schools of thought.. an of shoot (7/21/2006 7:30:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania I understand that and respect that choice ExSteelAgain. I think it is an individual choice. My safewords are standard color system. It is very direct communication. Im not saying anything about anyone else and their system of doing things. My point is that someone that doesn't honor a safeword is probably not someone that would honor direct communication.. so I do not know how direct communication would be superior. Julia: Understanding and respecting your own thoughts on safewords, I must say I think the part I highlighted above is a broad generalization. Master has never allowed a safeword, from our first time together. He retains control over a "scene" at all times. I could think I need something different (you used te example of more lube in a post), and I might beg for it, but there may be times he does not want to allow it, and I will have to deal with that. That does not mean he doesn't honor communication. It means he wants me to go through what he is having me go through. Pain and discomfort levels and tolerances (whether physical or emotional) can be stretched, and it is not up to me to decide that for myself. As I mentioned in a different thread, I can only say what I think a problem is; it is up to him to decide what to do about it. There are those who do not agree with the concept of stretching ones tolerance levels by way of pushing discomfort. There are reasons he pushes mine, and they have paid off wonderfully for me. This does not mean he does not honor direct communication, however. It means he gauges from my reactions if I'm nearing a breaking point. And every single time I am nearing a "this is too much" area, he knows, and he adjusts. Once it was a simple cry of "Master, I'm totally freaking out here!!" There are times I am not saying anything, but my cries might sound like I am in or nearing distress. Those have been times he immediately stopped of his own accord, held my face directly to his, and said "Talk to me - Now. What is going on?" And then I have to take a big breath and tell him what was going on in my head at that moment. This reply is not to say I don't think you should have a safe word. That is between you and your Dom, of course. I just wanted to address the part of your post that I highlighted, since in my case, at least, it does not apply. Lucky Albatross: Hey I want royalties for that quote, lol. I see what you are saying, but I think most are in agreement that "shit happens" and that communication is critical. I think where people are equating safe words with trust is for times like I referred to earlier in this post. Some people want something to hang onto, in case things go too far - in case they are pushed too far in a "scene" (sorry I have to put that in quotes because I dislike using "scene" as a reference). That said, there are those who believe if a safe word is needed, the submissive/slave/bottom does not trust the Dominant/Master/Top to stop before the "scene" becomes too intense to handle. That was the case with Master and I. He would not bring me into physical/sexual service until he knew I trusted him enough to not bring me too far, too fast. Hence, there would be no safe word. There would be communication. And he would/will make all final decisions. Now...keep breathing, lol.

Calandra -> RE: schools of thought.. an of shoot (7/21/2006 8:29:54 PM)
I insist on the use of safewords in two instances: 1.) when we're doing a resistance scenario where they are saying "no" when they are in ROLE and actually mean yes... use of a different word helps me to know when no really means NO. 2.) in the event they are having a medical emergency like chest pains or a muscle cramp that needs to be attended to. I routinely stop and check to see whats going wrong and then will end the scene if necessary, or solve the problem (such as massage the cramping muscle) before continuing. Sometimes a medical or physical issue happens very quickly and without warning. I agree that the unskilled use of safewords (by Dom or sub) can lead to as many problems as NOT having one... so I will suggest one for the reasons above and then proceed with the scene, tuning in as closely as possible as if there isn't one in play... I don't ever want to do a session trusting that a sub will HAVE to use one. I'd much rather realize the sub is in distress before it gets to that point. On the other hand, if I ever discover that a sub needed to safeword and didn't? then I couldn't trust them anymore, and I'd probably never scene with them again. I never assume that I'm infallible, and this is a PARTNERSHIP. If we're not both communicating, there's trouble brewing...

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