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Generation Gap - 4/14/2016 8:05:43 PM

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In another thread entitled Why The Change In Admin Policy?, the topic has drifted towards the subject of complaining about the younger generations. I thought about the topic of the generation gap and how things are really not that much different from when I was a kid.

I don't really agree with how generations are classified. Technically, I suppose I would be part of the Baby Boom generation (1945-65), since I was born in '63, but I never really identified with those born in the late 40s and 50s, since they were a decade or more older than me.

I suppose what I'm wondering is, do those of us who are of the older generations have much room to talk in criticizing the younger generations? Was our generation any better? My grandfather called them the "Now Generation," since it was always "I want it NOW!" My grandfather's generation was able to work hard, sacrifice - the kind of fortitude and strength which got us through the Depression and World War II, but the Baby Boomers were more about hedonism and instant gratification. They didn't care about the future as much as they pretended to back in the day.

In some ways, I almost feel as if our generation owes an apology to the younger generations. We fucked everything up. We're leaving the younger generations with insurmountable debts, a polluted world, depleted resources, global instability. The global instability and war is the real kicker, since those in the Baby Boom generation often pat themselves on the back for their crusade for world peace back in the day - and a better world that they could only "Imagine." But in the long run, they failed miserably.

I won't bash the Millennials. They may have their faults, but I believe that they'll have tougher challenges to face than our generation ever did. We didn't have to endure the Depression or World War II. The Baby Boomers grew up at a time when the country was at its peak, experiencing the biggest economic boom in our country's history - a whole new level of wealth and affluence which previous generations couldn't even imagine. We squandered all of that. We'll be leaving the next generation with far less than what was left to us. We blew it, and we blew it big time.

RE: Generation Gap - 4/14/2016 8:07:51 PM

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The funny thing is, although i was born in the 80's but I get along most well with people born in the 60's specifically. Not the ones in the 70's or 80's or even 50's.

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RE: Generation Gap - 4/14/2016 8:12:24 PM

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As a millennial myself I completely agree we have our faults, too many of us are obsessed with our phones and the internet, care too much about looks and not enough about important issues and actually connecting with each other. But it's difficult to move forward in a world when there is a wall of shit in the way left behind by the earlier generations. Many of the pathways to success many baby boomers took advantage of, or the lack of roadblocks, simply dont exist for my generation. Now, thankfully for me my area of focus will involve cleaning up and managing the problem created by past generations, namely the environmental industry, so I'd like to think that this industry is going to see more expansion as the world moves toward a more greener future. But I gotto say, it sucks knowing that I will have to work twice as hard to get what my parents did at my age. I personally dont know exactly how this could be changed to give my generation a better fighting chance, all I know is what I have to do going forward to make a life for myself, and it isn't going to be as easy as the older folks claim it is.

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RE: Generation Gap - 4/14/2016 8:13:51 PM

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I think a lot of it has to do with how one was brought up. Sometimes it is simple things like meeting your neighbors and introducing yourself. Sometimes it is complex. Different areas of the country also have different customs. Defining people by some arbitrary generation to me is just silly. I like to define people as I see them.

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RE: Generation Gap - 4/14/2016 8:24:11 PM

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For me, I go by life reoccuring patterns. I don't intentionally look to be-friend people born in their 60's, but many in that age group end up being really good friends to me by natural life fate.

I don't get along with my own generation most of the time.

(in reply to KenDckey)

RE: Generation Gap - 4/14/2016 8:44:19 PM

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It seems every generation thinks the ones coming after it are lazy self-absorbed, etc.
However, on the bright side, when I was little there was a big hill between me and my school so I literally did have to walk uphill both ways (of course I also walked down hill both ways.)

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RE: Generation Gap - 4/14/2016 8:46:46 PM

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Nah. I don't. I don't feel like I owe an apology to the "younger" generations.

I'm not going to stand here and take responsibility for pollution, global warming, or war across the globe. I'm just not that much of a grand figure in the scheme of life. It's not like I had cans of Aqua-Net in each hand, trying to destroy the environment, while pissing off General Choa, simultaneously dumping chemicals in the river, and whatever ills people think others have caused.

I learned a lot of lessons growing up. Most of them, I didn't like at the time. Be responsible. Face your consequences. Appreciate your advantages. As a kid, I hated that shit.

Today, my Dad is the smartest man I ever met.

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(in reply to KenDckey)

RE: Generation Gap - 4/14/2016 8:59:44 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

I think a lot of it has to do with how one was brought up.

This is true. When I think of my parents' generation, they would often talk about how their parents were quite strict (not to mention countless horrific stories of abuse). But by the 70s, a lot of kids were being brought up differently, with newer methods and ideas which had come about. Sometimes, I almost feel like the kids who were growing up in that decade were like guinea pigs and test subjects on new methods - because most everyone was defying and vehemently rejecting the "old" and "outmoded" methods of child rearing. My own parents were abusive and negligent alcoholics, so I had to raise myself, more or less.

Still, most of the kids of my age had to either walk to school or take the school bus. It was quite rare for parents to actually drive their kids to school on a daily basis, but by the late 80s and 90s, parents driving their kids to school became common practice. We didn't have cellphones back then or any GPS tracking technology. No parental controls for our TV sets. We never got carded for going to R-rated movies, and carding to buy alcohol was actually pretty rare. The drinking age was 19 in AZ when I reached that age, but the drinking age was raised to 21 the very next year. Later on, when the War on Drugs went into full swing, some companies made home drug-testing kits for their kids, so they can make sure they're not on drugs.

When I saw how many parents were raising their kids in 90s, it was almost the polar opposite of what I had seen in the 70s. Parents were doting on their kids left and right, smothering them and overprotecting them. They were so afraid of what was out in the world that they gave their kids all kinds of toys and video games to keep them inside, where it's safe and warm. This is about the same time those "Baby on Board" signs started popping up. They never had anything like that when I was a kid. It's things like that which likely had an effect on the Millennials' upbringing. Their parents and that generation treated them like they were the center of the universe all while they were growing up, and now they wonder why they're acting that way now.

< Message edited by Zonie63 -- 4/14/2016 9:03:27 PM >

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RE: Generation Gap - 4/14/2016 9:02:59 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Nah. I don't. I don't feel like I owe an apology to the "younger" generations.

I'm not going to stand here and take responsibility for pollution, global warming, or war across the globe. I'm just not that much of a grand figure in the scheme of life. It's not like I had cans of Aqua-Net in each hand, trying to destroy the environment, while pissing off General Choa, simultaneously dumping chemicals in the river, and whatever ills people think others have caused.

I learned a lot of lessons growing up. Most of them, I didn't like at the time. Be responsible. Face your consequences. Appreciate your advantages. As a kid, I hated that shit.

Today, my Dad is the smartest man I ever met.

I'm not saying that any individual of that generation owes a personal apology, but I just think that if we're going to bash the younger generations, we should at least take a good long look at the collective whole of our own generation. On an individual level, there are exceptions and outliers all over the place, but that wasn't really what I was getting at.

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RE: Generation Gap - 4/14/2016 9:14:25 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
I'm not saying that any individual of that generation owes a personal apology, but I just think that if we're going to bash the younger generations, we should at least take a good long look at the collective whole of our own generation. On an individual level, there are exceptions and outliers all over the place, but that wasn't really what I was getting at.

While I appreciate your opinion, Zonie, I think our interpretations differ.

I actually don't bash the younger generation as a whole. That example you gave? I'm not talking to every twenty year old when I say those things. Most people half my age are so knowledgeable to the cyber generation that I can't hold a candle to them.

I just saw it as stupid.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to Zonie63)

RE: Generation Gap - 4/14/2016 9:32:05 PM

kdsub

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Zonie it seems to me that we, meaning the US, beat ourselves up over the condition of the world today. I believe this dead wrong. The direct result of the industrial and military might of the US is a massive increase in the well being of every human on this earth. In the last 50 years the world population has exploded. Third world countries are entering the modern age for the fist time in their history...all because of the US... no one else. We have continually rebuild western Europe after their petty arguments dragged the world twice into war. We protect them today... without the US military umbrella Europe would have to spend its money on defense not bullet trains. Our economic pressure alone can change the actions of aggressive nations... We have not just changed the world we have made it stable and more prosperous than ever in human history.

The US is the first preeminent world power not to seek new territories by force... We have been and will continue to be a deterrent to aggression.

As much as people bitch about the free enterprise system it is the most efficient and prosperous in the history of mankind. It works in many types of government... just look at China. The raising middle class of China alone, a direct result of a free enterprise system, is larger than middle class anywhere in the world... including the US .

We as Americans have nothing to be ashamed of... we have led be example. Every generation including today as contributed none better or worse than the last. What we have to do is to not look back with blame but look forward with innovation to make our country better, and by doing that we will make the world better.

Butch

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RE: Generation Gap - 4/14/2016 9:50:08 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Nah. I don't. I don't feel like I owe an apology to the "younger" generations.

I disagree.

Anyone who is actively not fighting the system which continues to rape society at an exponential rate definitely owes the younger generation an apology, simply put because they are part of the problem not the solution.

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RE: Generation Gap - 4/14/2016 9:50:52 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
I'm not saying that any individual of that generation owes a personal apology, but I just think that if we're going to bash the younger generations, we should at least take a good long look at the collective whole of our own generation. On an individual level, there are exceptions and outliers all over the place, but that wasn't really what I was getting at.

While I appreciate your opinion, Zonie, I think our interpretations differ.

I actually don't bash the younger generation as a whole. That example you gave? I'm not talking to every twenty year old when I say those things. Most people half my age are so knowledgeable to the cyber generation that I can't hold a candle to them.

I just saw it as stupid.

I appreciate your opinions as well, and yes, that other thread was a bit of a troll thread. I was just thinking in general terms, looking at the overall picture.

I also wasn't thinking that anyone is personally responsible for the way the world is today. I know I also wasn't a grand figure in the scheme of life; I'm just an ordinary average guy myself. I had to learn some harsh lessons in life, as we all did. We all have our own row to hoe.

I recall some old newsreel I saw from the WW2 era; I think it may have been part of the Eddie Capra series of "Why We Fight," but I recall one of the messages that came through was "Yes, you ARE your brother's keeper." Back in earlier times, families stuck together and households were very often multi-generational affairs. There was a stronger sense of togetherness and shared responsibility that seems absent today. Nowadays, it's every man for himself. While there may be an emphasis on personal responsibility nowadays, that's as far as it goes. Anything else, and it's "not my job." I notice this much more in the business world, as things becomes so specialized and compartmentalized these days.

(in reply to LadyPact)

RE: Generation Gap - 4/14/2016 9:57:16 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Zonie it seems to me that we, meaning the US, beat ourselves up over the condition of the world today. I believe this dead wrong. The direct result of the industrial and military might of the US is a massive increase in the well being of every human on this earth.

I agree, although that wasn't really what I was getting at. I was also thinking in terms of the condition of the US. In fact, this may even point up part of the problem. Ever since WW2, we've been so overly concerned about "the world" that we forgot to take care of ourselves. I think of people who pat themselves on the back for sending money to starving children in Africa, while shitting all over the poor in our own country. This is what we've become.

(in reply to kdsub)

RE: Generation Gap - 4/14/2016 10:18:24 PM

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its when we all become slaves to debt-for-money (the keynsian model) and started going off the gold standard precisely what the framers warned us not to do but hegelian dialectics worked so well.

one major causes of inflation is when money does not get returned to the economy.

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Zonie63)

RE: Generation Gap - 4/14/2016 11:05:41 PM

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What the last two generations did, was let govt. and politicians and the elites...off the hook and produce countless trillions in forevermore accumulating debt., help create hate around the world and essentially as been proven succinctly since 2000, the last two admin. for sure, let govt. of, by and for the people...completely vanish if it hadn't already.

There is no question that since the 60's meaning exactly, the last two generations, did nothing to prevent a complete sellout to their own parochial problems, ego, pride and level of success to then totally lose site of the big picture. Resistance to secular humanism, clinging to blind faith and political acquiescence to the status quo, has driven our differences to the extreme emotionally, socially, almost to the brink of exhaustion.

The 'generation gap' will be the ensuing very high price in almost every facet if life, the next several...will have to pay.

_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

(in reply to Real0ne)

RE: Generation Gap - 4/14/2016 11:33:43 PM

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I also meant to address a few other points you raised.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Zonie it seems to me that we, meaning the US, beat ourselves up over the condition of the world today. I believe this dead wrong. The direct result of the industrial and military might of the US is a massive increase in the well being of every human on this earth. In the last 50 years the world population has exploded. Third world countries are entering the modern age for the fist time in their history...all because of the US... no one else. We have continually rebuild western Europe after their petty arguments dragged the world twice into war. We protect them today... without the US military umbrella Europe would have to spend its money on defense not bullet trains. Our economic pressure alone can change the actions of aggressive nations... We have not just changed the world we have made it stable and more prosperous than ever in human history.

A few points here, at least for some historical perspective. Going back to the late 19th and early 20th century (before WW1), what we now know today as the "third world" was mostly under the colonial control of the European powers, with Britain and France controlling most of it. They also had a role in the early development and industrialization of these territories, far more than what we were doing at that point.

As for their "petty arguments," it was really the Germans who dragged us into it, twice. First time, they tried to rile up Mexico to attack us and then declared unrestricted submarine warfare, which gave us no other viable choice but to enter the war against Germany. Second time, Hitler declared war on us all by himself.

I would take issue with your assertion that we have made the world more stable than ever. The world was pretty stable in 1900, and probably could have remained that way if not for Germany. The hot spots of the world we hear about today were nothing back in 1900. North Korea was certainly no threat at that time, and neither was Iran. Apart from a brief spat with the Barbary pirates in the 18th and early 19th centuries, we had zero problems with the Middle East. None whatsoever. The biggest threat coming out of China was the Boxer Rebellion, but they were far too disorganized and undeveloped that they could hardly mount any serious threat against the United States - not like they are today.

Back in those days, the biggest geopolitical threat to US security was...Pancho Villa. We didn't have to worry about fascists or communists or Islamists either.

quote:

The US is the first preeminent world power not to seek new territories by force... We have been and will continue to be a deterrent to aggression.

I disagree. The entire history of the US has been built on seeking new territories by force. Back in 1607, what would eventually become the US was nothing more than a tiny village on the east coast of Virginia. We got much, much bigger. How do you suppose that happened?

We also grabbed Cuba, Puerto Rico, Guam, and the Philippines from Spain, which had previously taken those territories by force. We used force against Spain, then we used force against the native populations of those lands in order to keep them under our thumb. The Philippines was especially bad. Just because our history has been whitewashed and they didn't tell us these things in school doesn't mean they didn't happen.

But even worse still, we had pushed for the Open China policy and participated on the side of European colonial powers in the Boxer Rebellion, thus giving our assent to the legitimacy of colonialism and the world system as it was. Our participation on the Allied side in the World Wars also put us even more firmly in the camp of the colonial powers - which is why we couldn't extricate ourselves from their business after the war.

After World War II, the world could have been made more stable if we had a president who was more flexible and open to a rapprochement with the USSR. Truman and his ilk screwed the pooch because they were so obsessed and scared about the so-called "communist conspiracy" to take over the world. That's what led us into the Cold War and led to much of the instability in the world today. All over the world, the victims of colonial aggression, whose territories were taken by force, were trying to fight back and gain independence and freedom. This did not suit the US government at the time, which in fact, makes us the aggressors.

If we're going to claim that we hold some sort of moral high ground over so-called "aggressive" nations, then at least we should put it some perspective here. As an example, when the French took over Vietnam and the rest of Indochina, they just took it over and declared it French territory. No puppets or proxies; they just "it's ours" and that was that. Was that, somehow, less moral and less honorable than our installation of puppet governments and operating under the pretense of "independence" when nothing was further from the truth? Or what about the coup we engineered in Chile or other places around the world? Was that more honorable than if we had just invaded and took over the country entirely?

quote:

As much as people bitch about the free enterprise system it is the most efficient and prosperous in the history of mankind. It works in many types of government... just look at China. The raising middle class of China alone, a direct result of a free enterprise system, is larger than middle class anywhere in the world... including the US .

China is still communist. It may be a more adaptive and flexible form of communism than in previous eras, but they never would have reached the pinnacle of success they enjoy today without first cleaning up the mess left by the colonial powers and the corrupt, morally-bankrupt regime that existed in that country prior to 1949. Plus, they had to recover from the brutalities inflicted upon them by the Japanese.

I honestly don't know why capitalists always point to China as their poster child extolling the virtues of "free enterprise." Have we forgotten that China is still a dictatorship and has brutally used force to crush dissent and any movements towards democracy? Is this what the future holds for global capitalism? Are they the new role model for the future? Is this what you're praising?

quote:

We as Americans have nothing to be ashamed of... we have led be example. Every generation including today as contributed none better or worse than the last. What we have to do is to not look back with blame but look forward with innovation to make our country better, and by doing that we will make the world better.

Butch

I don't think we should be ashamed, but I think we should be honest about who we are and what we've done. We're not a bunch of angels or choir boys. But that just makes us human; we're no better or worse than other people in the world.

It's not a matter of looking back with blame, but more a matter of rationally and coherently realizing where we made our mistakes so that we don't make similar mistakes in the future. "Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it."

(in reply to kdsub)

RE: Generation Gap - 4/14/2016 11:42:54 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

its when we all become slaves to debt-for-money (the keynsian model) and started going off the gold standard precisely what the framers warned us not to do but hegelian dialectics worked so well.

one major causes of inflation is when money does not get returned to the economy.

I have to go after that last line and actually, it's the opposite. When consumers and businesses hoard capital, it creates a tendency toward deflation. This results in too few dollars chasing an adequate supply.

In fact, it is when there is higher dollar velocity, more dollars in more hands and by [its] very nature, resulting in more money being spent, which means even a higher dollar velocity, has a tendency toward inflation. In fact, being forced to consult history and there is some, the only time any real inflation (core inflation) occurs is when govts. in order to please every segment of their constituency...over borrows and spends which starts what's called inflationary pressure and then as in Greece most recently, Italy historically in Europe before the Euro and now Brazil and Argentina to an extent, two countries with the resources and labor force to provide for their own needs.

They still actually print up more currency to try to pay the incoming bills. Brazil only now slowing to under 10% after two years of recession and HERE Argentina slowing to 32+% inflation, which simply cannot be sustained. HERE The govt. and policy makers are actually saying that printing up money does not cause inflation. 32% IS inflation. This also after the govt. 'stole' the country's private pensions to stimulate growth.

Those are hard core examples of actually introducing way too much capital (new currency) that chases a static supply.

_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

(in reply to Real0ne)

RE: Generation Gap - 4/15/2016 12:03:47 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

China is still communist. It may be a more adaptive and flexible form of communism than in previous eras, but they never would have reached the pinnacle of success they enjoy today without first cleaning up the mess left by the colonial powers and the corrupt, morally-bankrupt regime that existed in that country prior to 1949. Plus, they had to recover from the brutalities inflicted upon them by the Japanese.

I honestly don't know why capitalists always point to China as their poster child extolling the virtues of "free enterprise." Have we forgotten that China is still a dictatorship and has brutally used force to crush dissent and any movements towards democracy? Is this what the future holds for global capitalism? Are they the new role model for the future? Is this what you're praising?

China is the poster boy for our future and maybe the world's future. It is a command economy that is a mixture of some private capital while still forcing far too much govt. ownership, corruption on the economy built on a basis of 300-400 million people (peasants) doing the labor building products for others to buy, they didn't design, have only begin buying now themselves and without much of any domestic consumerism (economy) of their own.

The govt. still regulates all facets of the economy which pays extremely low wages forcing a still lower standard of living upon its labor. (the govt. has companies build nets around buildings to cut down on suicides) Thus China has a capitalist form of fascism with only the party/business elites and their cronies benefiting. Sound familiar ? The US is heading slowly in that direction. We see China regulate the creation of businesses and investments putting the lie to free enterprise and also regulates capital flow as in recently cutting domestic purchases of the US dollar.

_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

(in reply to Zonie63)

RE: Generation Gap - 4/15/2016 12:25:33 AM

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I sometimes wonder how capitalism would be if it truly lived up to its own propaganda. I often find that whenever people extol the virtues of capitalism and the free enterprise system, they do so in an abstract way, pointing more to the theoretical ideal than what exists in practice.

I think there are some good benefits of capitalism, when it is practiced by good capitalists. It's the bad capitalists we have to watch out for, and this is where I might even criticize the good capitalists. This is because they're all too willing to let the bad capitalists off the hook. They want to protect them and keep them from facing any consequences of their dishonest activities. Even if they are caught red-handed in some wrongdoing, their sentences are too light and don't amount to any real punishment at all.

It would seem to me that, for those capitalists who are true devotees and advocates for that system, this is something they should be far more proactive and zealous in attacking. What if we implemented a "zero tolerance" policy for any malfeasance or corruption in the business world and imposed seriously harsh penalties with teeth? For example, bribery, price fixing, collusion, insider trading, etc. could be punished with life sentences, rather than just a small fine and a few months at a country club prison. I can't imagine why any "true" capitalists would oppose that, unless they secretly believe that capitalism can't operate without being dishonest. Hell, I think a clerk short-changing someone at the store should be an automatic ten-year sentence at hard labor. A gas station owner who fiddles with the pumps so that a "gallon" doesn't quite measure up to a gallon - 20 years at hard labor. Same for any produce sellers who fiddle with their scales.

None of this would violate the principles of capitalism, so capitalists can't claim there's any "ideological" conflict. The real question is whether "true" capitalists are willing to put their money where their mouth is and support a system which would live up to its own propaganda.

(in reply to MrRodgers)

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