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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/22/2006 6:23:20 PM   
cr0ckdile


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quote:

This war probably has little to do with Hezzbullah missile strikes and probably more to do with Israel having a new Perime minister who feels he has to prove he is every bit a hard man as Sharon.


Yes, because all Israeli prime ministers are macho men who need to flex their muscle.  Like Menachem Begin, who gave up the Sinai Peninsula, an area 3 times the size of Israel, in exchange for peace with Egypt, or Ehud Barak, who withdrew from Lebanon and offered the Palestinians a homeland which they rejected, and followed up with the 2nd Intifadah.

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/22/2006 6:25:17 PM   
Dierwolf


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do any of you people actually know anyone who lives in israel? I lived there with my cousins and uncle and great uncle for three and a half years. My cousins currently serve in the Israeli Defense Forces, on active duty. It's the constant global pissing match that fuels the fires on both sides. 98 percent of the islamic population of the middle east and 98 percent of the jewish population of the middle east just want the radicals on both sides to leave them the hell alone. Then someone lobs a rocket, or fires a missile or whatever, and this is what happens. You people need to shut the hell up and let them take care of their own problems instead of judging them and dissecting everything. The whole media concept of "if it bleeds it leads" has created a ton of bloodshed over there, and you people are feeding RIGHT into it. 

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/22/2006 6:25:56 PM   
cr0ckdile


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You keep telling me to read my history, and then when I point out that Islam itself may have something to do with the conflict you call me stupid?

Perhaps you ought to read your history, and realize that Islam has been in conflict with the West since its birth, and the first time that conflict ceased was World War I.  That's well over a millenium.

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/22/2006 6:26:35 PM   
meatcleaver


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Just in case you didn't read it before. I suggest you read these quotes and then think about radical Islam and where it might have come from.

David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): " If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?" Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp. 121-122.
"We must do everything to ensure they [the Palestinian refugees] never do return... The old will die and the young will forget."-David Ben-Gurion, in his diary, July 18, 1948, quoted in Michael Bar Zohar's "Ben-Gurion: the Armed Prophet," Prentice-Hall, 1967, p. 157.
"We must expel Arabs and take their places." - David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.
"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population." - David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.
"We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, 'What is to be done with the Palestinian population; Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!'? Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979; Rabin's description of the conquest of Lydda, after the completion of Plan Dalet.
"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country." - David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky's Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan's "Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.
"There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist." - Golda Meir, statement to The Sunday Times, 15 June, 1969.
"How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to." - Golda Meir, March 8, 1969.
"This country exists as the fulfillment of a promise made by God Himself. It would be ridiculous to ask it to account for its legitimacy." - Golda Meir, Le Monde, 15 October 1971
"I have learned that the state of Israel cannot be ruled in our generation without deceit and adventurism." --Moshe Sharett, Israel's first Foreign Minister and later a Prime Minister (p.51 Simha Flapan, "The Birth of Israel", 1987)
"The state of Israel must invent dangers, and to do this it must adopt the methods of provocation and revenge.... And above all, let us hope for a new war with the Arab countries so that we may finally get rid of our troubles and acquire our space." -From the diary of Moshe Sharett, Israeli's first Foreign Minister from 1948-1956, and Prime Minister from 1954-1956.
"[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs."-Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the 'Beasts,"' New Statesman, June 25, 1982.
"(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls." - Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988
"If we thought that instead of 200 Palestinian fatalities, 2,000 dead would put an end to the fighting at a stroke, we would use much more force...." - Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, quoted in Associated Press, November 16, 2000.
"I would have joined a terrorist organization." - Ehud Barak's response to Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Ha'aretz newspaper, when Barak was asked what he would have done if he had been born a Palestinian.
"Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories." Benyamin Netanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, former Prime Minister of Israel, tells students at Bar Ilan University, From the Israeli journal Hotam, November 24, 1989.


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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/22/2006 6:28:31 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cr0ckdile

You keep telling me to read my history, and then when I point out that Islam itself may have something to do with the conflict you call me stupid?

Perhaps you ought to read your history, and realize that Islam has been in conflict with the West since its birth, and the first time that conflict ceased was World War I.  That's well over a millenium.



I think you will find that the Christians were far more violent and blood thirsty in the crusades and it was that that started the Islamic mistrust of the west.

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/22/2006 6:29:07 PM   
cr0ckdile


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When you cant argue, just paste quotes from questionable sources.

Shouldn't you be getting to bed now, meatcleaver?

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/22/2006 6:31:00 PM   
KenDckey


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Dierwolf    I would have figured a higher percentage but I agree.   When I was in eritrea, the ELF was formed upon tribal lines and fought Ethiopia all the time.   They finally regained their country (given to Ethiopia by the League of Nations) but they are still fighting over the borders.   The common citizen just wants peace - the aim of every soldier

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/22/2006 6:31:23 PM   
Dierwolf


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Notice how conveniently my reply was ignored. I'm likely one of the very few people on this site to have lived this thing you're discussing.    

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/22/2006 6:31:38 PM   
Estring


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What country exactly was there before Israel? There was none. Why is it that of all the countries in the world, Israel is the only one that so many have a problem with in existing? The Arab countries don't even have Israel on their maps. It seems like there are many here who would not have a problem with that happening in real life. And do really believe that radical Islam begin in 1948 because of Israel? What are you smoking?

< Message edited by Estring -- 7/22/2006 6:32:54 PM >


_____________________________

Boycott Whales!

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/22/2006 6:32:08 PM   
cr0ckdile


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Ah yes!  The Crusades!  The Crusades!  Every Muslim today keeps reminding us Westerners that we should feel guilty that 900 years ago, our "forefathers" invaded the Middle East.

Need I remind you, my dear meatcleaver, that Egypt, Syria, Libya, Morrocco, Jordan, Palestine, Turkey, and even parts of Iraq, were all provinces of the Roman Empire and were centres of Christianity?  As a matter of fact, Antioch in Syria and Alexandria in Egypt were the intellectual centres of the Christian world.  But Islam destroyed that when it spread out of Arabia and conquered and forcibly converted the populations of the Middle East and North Africa.

So don't talk to us about the Crusades and violence.  Islam began the conflict when it devastated the Eastern Roman Empire and carved up over half its territories.  And that was 300 years before the Crusades.

< Message edited by cr0ckdile -- 7/22/2006 6:35:02 PM >

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/22/2006 6:32:29 PM   
Dierwolf


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Ken, I think though that is the aim of every soldier the middle east is a perfect example of the truth of the phrase "violence only begets violence". Least it felt that way the two times i had to sprint to a bomb shelter.    

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/22/2006 6:33:27 PM   
iam4her


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Israel is a modern construction, out of modern history. 1947.
In the old history, yes the jews lived there, just as our country, Sweden ruled half of Europe.
If old history would claim the right to rule today, Italy could claim the right of UK, Sweden could claim the right of Germany, Poland, Denmark, Finland, and a numerous countries. The natives in usa could claim the right over the whitehouse, aso aso..
Israel is a construction in the modern world that do not work, nomatter if we would send in tons of the white troups there for 50 years, it will never work for the people that live down there.
This is just pure fact nomatter how many lasermisiles american troups that operates inside of Israel there now.

It is sad, and i have also a heart for the jewish people that somewhere in their heart are very confused,devistated´and fight for their right to exist.

I think that a war wont solve the this problem, UN cant do antying about this issue, no one cant do anything about this, people will die down there are long Israel is there as a country on the map.

My solution is that we all have to take the jews to our hearts and divert all these guys to our hearts and our countries and spread them out over the world.

Sad destiny but i cant see any other solution.

< Message edited by iam4her -- 7/22/2006 6:48:00 PM >

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/22/2006 6:33:49 PM   
cr0ckdile


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Dierwolf, I'm Israeli ;)

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/22/2006 6:34:44 PM   
KenDckey


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Hey Crock   Haven't you figured it out yet?   Meat only reads the quotes and facts and figures.   What I think is that if it is in print, that must make it gospel for him. course that is only my opinion - which I haven't found much of from him only those silly quotes and other out of context stats

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/22/2006 6:36:50 PM   
Dierwolf


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lol cr0ck then I humbly stand corrected. But man I am so sick n fucking tired of hearing people around the world mouth off. Like any of them ever experienced any of it.    

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/22/2006 6:40:07 PM   
cr0ckdile


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Dierwolf, I sympathize.  Like most Israelis, I do try to stay away from discussions like these because the news from home is bothersome enough, but occasionally your blood just flares up when you read such stupidity from the likes of irishbynature (who should probably stick to denouncing the terrorist activities of southern Irishmen) and meatcleaver.  You just want to make sure that curious passerbys see the other side of the argument.

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/22/2006 6:42:39 PM   
KenDckey


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Dierwolf   I know a lot of soldiers in the IDF.   Their aim is to survive, and I don't know any of them that like war.    It is loud, messy, stinks and you can get hurt.   and like Crock   I have made the mad dash for cover.

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/22/2006 6:45:14 PM   
cr0ckdile


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Ken, you were born in Africa?  Situation is far worse there, ain't it?

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/22/2006 6:48:33 PM   
KenDckey


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No   I was born in Arizona.   My ex-wife was born in Asmara, Eritrea.   The places that I loved have been blown to hell and back.   A bit of History the port I was in was where the Queen of Sheba reportedly landed when she left Solomon and went to the Lion of Judah. And their son reportedly took the Arc of the Covenant on its journey to St Mary's Church in Ethiopia.   I personally believe it is there too.

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/22/2006 6:51:01 PM   
cr0ckdile


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Well, I can't comment on such speculation.

It's been a long evening of arguments, but now it's time to check out the cafes!  Good night.

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