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RE: Major BDSM practitioner arrested for Rape - 10/28/2016 9:46:26 AM   
Greta75


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alecta
I'm not making excuses. I'm pointing out when it isn't actually rape.

But your point number 1 is rape if she said no at any point after agreeing to anal sex, even after getting naked. EVEN after having vagina sex. Then decided to balk at anal sex, and IF he anally penetrates her, it's rape!

(in reply to Alecta)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Major BDSM practitioner arrested for Rape - 10/28/2016 9:48:16 AM   
Alecta


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That wasn't actually my point. That was where babygirl took it (without consent). My point is sex you turned up and agreed to do is sex not rape.

And yea you can change your mind, but anything that happened before you clearly expressed changing your mind is not rape.

If a woman goes to hook up with a guy because he sounds "rapey" expecting to be "forcefully taken", it's not rape. Unless she clearly invokes the safeword, but that gets grey in rape play - how do you draw the line between part of the play and actual resistance (without safewords).

It's very depressing that these qualifiers need to be spelt out.

< Message edited by Alecta -- 10/28/2016 9:56:40 AM >

(in reply to Greta75)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Major BDSM practitioner arrested for Rape - 10/28/2016 10:01:07 AM   
Greta75


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I suggest women who are "rape playing" with a stranger for the first time, have an audio recording on, in their phones, so that they can prove rape later if the guy transgresses.

Of course, for it to be rape, there has to be evidence.

Personally for me. I do not even allow a man to do any bondage on me, until after I've been fucking him for 2 years! I mean mine are all casual. So I think yea, women need to do what is best to protect themselves.

Always a gamble with trusting someone. And it's a risk ya gotta take. And up to each individual, when they feel it's okay.

I am very very careful.

< Message edited by Greta75 -- 10/28/2016 10:02:29 AM >

(in reply to Alecta)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Major BDSM practitioner arrested for Rape - 10/29/2016 1:17:41 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32561
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alecta
Sigh.


Yeah, I get exasperated, too. However, I share a different opinion than you.


quote:

It's about extremes and taking responsibility for your own bad decisions, you know, both of you.

Not exactly. Sure, you might say it's a bad decision to meet up with person X, wear that short skirt, walk in the bad part of town, etc. This isn't a civil matter where we say there is a percentage split. She's not X amount at fault because she was (if the case is proven) sexually assaulted. That's on the alleged perpetrator.

quote:

You're right to an extent, if I said no anal and you do it anyway, that's rape. You are missing my points however that
1. if you go meeting a guy for anal sex and he does anal sex, you can't turn around afterwards and say it's rape.

This is a part of the problem with this whole situation. People are *assuming* that she met with him for anything specific at all. We're talking about a guy who has a reputation for NOT negotiating. From where I sit, that's kind of an issue.

quote:

2.t some point the whole "right to rescind consent" becomes... ridiculous. Like the women who call rape after they get the sex they signed up for, citing poor performance, or change their minds after it's in progress and proceed to call what's already happened rape.

I'd like to state for the record that I'm not big on "retroactive" consent violations, either. If I negotiate with you that we are going to do X, Y, Z on Saturday, and come Tuesday, you 'changed your mind,' we have a whole different issue, here. However, there just aren't that many folks who can stand up to the scrutiny of a fourteen month long investigation that are willing to plow through. I'm not saying impossible. I'm looking at improbable.

quote:

I cannot support that blatant abuse of reason and protection. (As in, abuse of protection).

I think we're seeing this in different ways. (Hang with me. It gets better.)

quote:

3. When you go meet a guy known for doing stuff beyond the script for sex, who has a public history of being disturbingly pushy in bed, and get naked for him and let him fuck you, you cannot actually be surprised when he does what he usually does and goes off script, can you?

You're jumping to conclusions. No knowledge of what happened on the night in question, no idea if she stripped for him, or if this person had any idea of his 'reputation' of what he wrote on a website. You are making leaps of assumptions.

quote:

You cannot reasonably expect him to treat you as a special snowflake and not do what he usually does just because he said so. The scorpion and the frog. They are both to blame for the scorpion stinging the frog. The frog should not have believed the scorpion just on his word and should have taken steps to prevent the scorpion from harming him even if he wanted to believe in the good of the scorpion.

Incorrect. Call it a "special snowflake" all you like. EVERY negotiation is individual. If he engaged in rape play with a thousand women, and the 1000th and first woman had a different agreement, where she didn't say <yes> to whatever... That's on him: not her.

quote:

To further elaborate, if the girl had met the guy under a fake profile (of the guy) rather than his usual one with all the disturbing stuff he publicly espouses and all the public rape drama per his previous partners and people in the public online community (I will concede that his reputation in "rt" community may be privileged information the girl was not privy to if she did not know the same people),

Stop, right there. I've got three.

First, this was a guy who had a habit of turning his profile on and off, usually when the heat got too close. His writings were not always accessible. Yeah, the guy made K&P regularly for quite some time. By coincidence, several of his writings were pulled from public view at various points.

Second, we must look at the 'just on the internet' factor. Without first person knowledge, a person wouldn't know if his stuff was fact or fiction.

Third, nobody knows if this gal had any exposure to the "rt" community. We have no idea of who she is or what she might have known.


quote:

...and did not reasonably know of his reputation, then there is no expectation for her to have been able to know that the risks.

This, I can relate to.


quote:

On the other hand, if she went into a room with him got naked and let him near her knowing his reputation as above, there's no reasonable and responsible way she can say she didn't know that's the kind of encounter she's most likely in for. It further needs to be questioned whether she'd actually decided to met him because of the reputation, being attracted to the idea.

I have problems with this. Take a look at any kind of 'survey' folks have out there. Rape play is an exceptionally common fantasy, on both sides of the slash. Many of us know that it isn't something many folks would like to play out, even if their fantasies are very intriguing.

quote:

It's funny we can't go to a restaurant to order something we thought we were interested in and decide not to pay for it when we change our minds about wanting it after it has been served, but expect exactly that in this argument.

That's the thing. Yes, you can! If you go to a restaurant and order calamari, because everybody says it's will be the most fantastic thing you have ever tasted, and you take a bite and decide it's not for you, YOU GET TO STOP EATING IT. You don't have to 'finish' your plate just because you ordered it.

quote:

On this case in the given coverage it is unclear which of these cases is what'd happened since the papers are more interested in making a sensation of his Fet, and it doesn't matter because it's not about her at this point in this (this forum) discussion. It isn't about victim shaming or blaming so much as it is about not letting victim protection absolve people of personal responsibility in bad choices. The abuse of victim culture.

No. No, it's not.

The folks who are so myopic, thinking it's about turning the attention toward Fet haven't bothered themselves to THINK about other potentials.

Do you know what I saw???

I saw a sh^t ton of people that I've met over the years who met me as "Lady Pact". Thousands of people.

If there ever had to be a legal investigation of me, how many people would know me by my "legal name"? If my 'real name' hit the papers, how many people would recognize it?




_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to Alecta)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Major BDSM practitioner arrested for Rape - 10/29/2016 2:20:11 AM   
Alecta


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The reporting leads its readers to think that the girl met him on Fet, which means she would have seen stuff about him on there while socializing with him there. He generates enough drama that it's not believable they wouldn't if they were talking to him on his Fet. But them hooking up on Fet is only an assumption. Most of what I was saying is about possible types of situations their encounter had been and not specific to the case (hashing out possible scenarios not jumping to conclusions about this guy and girl). It's hard to comment directly on the case with the lack of reliable "what actually happened" information.

In regards to the restaurant example, yes, you can choose to not eat it, but my point isn't that you have to eat it, it's that that doesn't mean you can just not pay for it, and that most people would not even think about contesting the accepted expectation to pay for it even if they didn't enjoy it. They would probably go "ugh I did not enjoy that and would not order it again" but it is still generally considered unreasonable to hold the restaurant responsible for you not enjoying something that they are doing within their norm. And I'm not concluding whether the girl did decide to meet this famously rapey fellow in a hotel room knowing he was famously rapey, but if she did, then she doesnt get to not take responsibility for putting herself in that situation.

It is my opinion that it doesn't matter what kind of agreement you thought you had with Mr Scorpion. He is a scorpion and has stung 1000 people. You cannot reasonably take him just on his word that he's not going to sting you. Trust but verify. You still have to be prepared that he's going to do it no matter what he'd said. That's one point, and independent of the meeting him because he is famously rapey and it turned you on hoping he'd do it to you -point.

It doesn't actually matter if his writings were fact or fiction, since it is fiction that he wrote for his own enjoyment, it speaks to the same qualities in him whether they are fact or fiction.


(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Major BDSM practitioner arrested for Rape - 10/29/2016 2:48:57 AM   
LadyPact


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No, the "reporting" didn't "lead" readers to think sh^t.

If this was the same <UM> gal from those months ago, would you still say "trust, yet verify"?



_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to Alecta)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Major BDSM practitioner arrested for Rape - 10/29/2016 3:06:19 AM   
Alecta


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I don't see how it should differ.
I don't take "trust but verify" as advocating for giving people the benefit of the doubt, rather for being cautious when giving people the benefit of the doubt and not letting yourself become a victim.

(in reply to LadyPact)
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RE: Major BDSM practitioner arrested for Rape - 10/29/2016 3:23:31 AM   
MoxieMcfly


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Refusing to use safe words doesn't mean rape. Lot's of people use an open communication/no means no practice.

(in reply to Greta75)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Major BDSM practitioner arrested for Rape - 10/29/2016 9:04:23 AM   
Greta75


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Joined: 2/6/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MoxieMcfly

Refusing to use safe words doesn't mean rape. Lot's of people use an open communication/no means no practice.

Usually dominants who says that they don't believe in safe words is followed by, "I will decide for you, what is okay or not okay! You have to trust me."

To me that is potential rape happening.

(in reply to MoxieMcfly)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Major BDSM practitioner arrested for Rape - 10/29/2016 9:59:12 AM   
Alecta


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75
Usually dominants who says that they don't believe in safe words is followed by, "I will decide for you, what is okay or not okay! You have to trust me."

To me that is potential rape happening.


Only if you don't agree to let them decide. If you agree that they should be the sole decider of what is and is not ok then that's consent.

(in reply to Greta75)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Major BDSM practitioner arrested for Rape - 10/29/2016 10:42:23 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32561
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alecta
I don't see how it should differ.
I don't take "trust but verify" as advocating for giving people the benefit of the doubt, rather for being cautious when giving people the benefit of the doubt and not letting yourself become a victim.

We'll have to see this differently.

We already know there are people on Fet who had no clue there were allegations about this individual before. Plenty of people hit the 'love' button on his writings without knowing any of his past interactions were questionable. Please keep in mind, this was also a guy who, at certain intervals, would deactivate his profile. That means there were points that his writings, etc weren't up at all. At this point, we don't know how much or how little the person pressing charges against him knew *of* him, just because they had contact on Fet. The people saying she should have known what she was in for are forgetting the fact that said 'information' wasn't always available.

Even if she did know his reputation, it doesn't really matter. If during their encounter she chose to withdraw consent, she's supposed to have the right to do that.



_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to Alecta)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Major BDSM practitioner arrested for Rape - 10/29/2016 12:46:44 PM   
ThatDizzyChick


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quote:

1. if you go meeting a guy for anal sex and he does anal sex, you can't turn around afterwards and say it's rape.

Actually dear, I can meet a guy for any type sex and do that type ex, and if during that sex I change my mind and he doesn't stop...guess what? Yup, that's rape.

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(in reply to Alecta)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Major BDSM practitioner arrested for Rape - 10/29/2016 1:16:00 PM   
Alecta


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1. that's "during", not "afterwards".
2. you still can't qualify what happened before you said stop as rape.

(in reply to ThatDizzyChick)
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RE: Major BDSM practitioner arrested for Rape - 10/29/2016 1:40:35 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32561
Status: offline
Who has said anything about that?

It is my position that "no" is the end. I don't care how long you have known a person, what was ok before, how many "groupies" a person has, or whatever. Seriously, don't care.

If that person withdrew consent, she has that basic, human right.


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to Alecta)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Major BDSM practitioner arrested for Rape - 10/29/2016 1:57:27 PM   
Alecta


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Joined: 1/19/2010
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I'm not sure where "groupies" comes in, except maybe that what the groupies worship the person for should be giving people an indication of what that person is like? please clarify.

I never said people can't change their mind about doing something. I said it's ridiculous to accept someone changing their mind about it after it has already happened.

< Message edited by Alecta -- 10/29/2016 1:59:51 PM >

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Major BDSM practitioner arrested for Rape - 10/29/2016 2:43:18 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32561
Status: offline
Don't know where "groupies"come in? Read Fet.

Skip that, even. Don't invest your time in all that.

I'm going to teach you a trick. Ready? It's real simple.

When somebody says they were assaulted, you just say, "I'm sorry that happened to you.'


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to Alecta)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Major BDSM practitioner arrested for Rape - 10/29/2016 2:47:30 PM   
Lucylastic


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In my humble experience, the "groupies" make it a whole lot worse.

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(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Major BDSM practitioner arrested for Rape - 10/29/2016 3:27:06 PM   
Alecta


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I meant I don't get what point you were trying to make about the groupies when you brought them up, it seemed just sort of tossed in there; not the general unawareness of wolf's groupies.

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Major BDSM practitioner arrested for Rape - 10/29/2016 9:08:32 PM   
UllrsIshtar


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~FR~

It's really very simple:

Consent was given. We know that for a fact. The alleged victim admits it.

However what it comes down to is: Was consent at any point withdrawn and the withdrawal of the consent communicated to The Wolf in a manner understandable by him? (If you agree to rape play where 'no' and 'stop' are negotiated to be ignored, you cannot at that point withdraw consent by saying 'no' and 'stop'... that's exactly why we have safewords.) And IF consent was withdrawn, and that withdrawal communicated, did he continue after the withdrawal?

If consent was not withdrawn, it wasn't rape.
If the withdrawal of consent was not communicated to The Wolf, it was not rape.
If The Wolf stopped as soon as the withdrawal of consent was communicated to him, it was not rape.

The only way this was rape is if it was communicated to The Wolf that consent that was previous given was withdrawn and he ignored it and continued... and none of us here know if that happened or not.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Alecta)
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RE: Major BDSM practitioner arrested for Rape - 10/29/2016 9:26:18 PM   
Greatlilbabygirl


Posts: 786
Joined: 9/9/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

In my humble experience, the "groupies" make it a whole lot worse.

There is a girl on fet who has talked about and even ended up reporting to police an incident that occurred a year and a half ago where she met with the guy in question, was in sub space, then he sprung one of his collared subs on her without her permission and proceeded to instruct the sub in sexually assaulting the girl in sub space. The sub did it knowing full well the girl in subspace didn't know the sub would be there. So fucked up, but the sub still defends her actions to this day.

Groupies can and do follow the guy like he's some God and have perpetrated despicable actions for him and in his name.

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 40
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