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RE: You're black, mentally ill, you call 911, you're dead. - 6/1/2017 8:10:09 PM

Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

If, as sugested they knew the situation, why did they only send one cop?
They supossedly knew about her mental health issues and did not send more than one cop.
If someone is swinging a bat at you odds are that you will consider this a mortal threat.

I don't recall where their foreknowledge was suggested. The point is you have an elderly woman ranting and waving a scissors you ought to suspect mental illness.

An elderly woman swinging a baseball bat ? A mortal threat? After she complied and lay down the scissors? Hard to see that as a mortal threat. He could have backed out of her apartment maybe?

You guys want it both ways. You rant when a citizen does not comply with a "lawful order" but now it is not enough that she complied. No, now she is pursued into her home and capped. Blue madness.

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to BamaD)

RE: You're black, mentally ill, you call 911, you're dead. - 6/1/2017 8:21:43 PM

Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

NYC is known for sending cops into unwinnable situations then selling them down the river.

That is a terrible accusation to make without foundation. NYC is justifiably proud of their police and other first responders. Sometimes there is a tragic fuck up and it should be examined.

I urge everyone to read Deborah's essay which I posted in #30. Try to understand the nature of schizophrenia.

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to BamaD)

RE: You're black, mentally ill, you call 911, you're dead. - 6/1/2017 8:21:55 PM

Posts: 1950
Joined: 5/18/2009
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Salt lake city has had some interesting results with new intensive training techniques.

I can't blame the cop for what he did,wish he knew how to better handle it,but I can't be angry at some one trying to make the best of a situation they weren't prepared for,but I can't help but to think that there's a better way it could have been handled....Captain hindsight away

(in reply to vincentML)

RE: You're black, mentally ill, you call 911, you're dead. - 6/1/2017 8:42:19 PM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

If, as sugested they knew the situation, why did they only send one cop?
They supossedly knew about her mental health issues and did not send more than one cop.
If someone is swinging a bat at you odds are that you will consider this a mortal threat.

I don't recall where their foreknowledge was suggested. The point is you have an elderly woman ranting and waving a scissors you ought to suspect mental illness.

An elderly woman swinging a baseball bat ? A mortal threat? After she complied and lay down the scissors? Hard to see that as a mortal threat. He could have backed out of her apartment maybe?

You guys want it both ways. You rant when a citizen does not comply with a "lawful order" but now it is not enough that she complied. No, now she is pursued into her home and capped. Blue madness.

He followed her into the apartment to get the scissors from her, and yes a baseball bat can be lethal weapon. Back off , makes sense, then you could trash him for leting her kill herself.
You should have read your link, if it is accurate there is no reason he was sent alone.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to vincentML)

RE: You're black, mentally ill, you call 911, you're dead. - 6/1/2017 8:44:37 PM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

NYC is known for sending cops into unwinnable situations then selling them down the river.

That is a terrible accusation to make without foundation. NYC is justifiably proud of their police and other first responders. Sometimes there is a tragic fuck up and it should be examined.

I urge everyone to read Deborah's essay which I posted in #30. Try to understand the nature of schizophrenia.

The department is good, the city coucil has a history of throwing cops under the bus if it helps them. The fact remains that he was sent into a no win situation.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to vincentML)

RE: You're black, mentally ill, you call 911, you're dead. - 6/1/2017 8:48:21 PM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PyrotheClown

Salt lake city has had some interesting results with new intensive training techniques.

I can't blame the cop for what he did,wish he knew how to better handle it,but I can't be angry at some one trying to make the best of a situation they weren't prepared for,but I can't help but to think that there's a better way it could have been handled....Captain hindsight away

Exactly, nothing he did would have been right. Captian hindsight strikes again.
Put all the blame on one cop and you can ignore the problems in the system, prtend they don't exist.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to PyrotheClown)

RE: You're black, mentally ill, you call 911, you're dead. - 6/2/2017 9:17:36 AM

Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

NYC is known for sending cops into unwinnable situations then selling them down the river.

That is a terrible accusation to make without foundation. NYC is justifiably proud of their police and other first responders. Sometimes there is a tragic fuck up and it should be examined.

I urge everyone to read Deborah's essay which I posted in #30. Try to understand the nature of schizophrenia.

The department is good, the city coucil has a history of throwing cops under the bus if it helps them. The fact remains that he was sent into a no win situation.

For police who are properly trained, as this dude probably was, there are no "no-win" situations. No one had a gun to his head to force him to pursue the victim into her home. He had total command of the circumstances. He was in position to make proper decisions. You cannot excuse his actions by blaming some board of people who meet maybe weekly at some distant buildings. He had total and unfettered agency. If people like you and jurors like you would stop turning a blind eye to the power of Authority with gun we would have far less news of these tragedies.

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to BamaD)

RE: You're black, mentally ill, you call 911, you're dead. - 6/2/2017 9:23:17 AM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

NYC is known for sending cops into unwinnable situations then selling them down the river.

That is a terrible accusation to make without foundation. NYC is justifiably proud of their police and other first responders. Sometimes there is a tragic fuck up and it should be examined.

I urge everyone to read Deborah's essay which I posted in #30. Try to understand the nature of schizophrenia.

The department is good, the city coucil has a history of throwing cops under the bus if it helps them. The fact remains that he was sent into a no win situation.

For police who are properly trained, as this dude probably was, there are no "no-win" situations. No one had a gun to his head to force him to pursue the victim into her home. He had total command of the circumstances. He was in position to make proper decisions. You cannot excuse his actions by blaming some board of people who meet maybe weekly at some distant buildings. He had total and unfettered agency. If people like you and jurors like you would stop turning a blind eye to the power of Authority with gun we would have far less news of these tragedies.

He was in her apartment when he got the scissors from her. Shewasa danger to herself at that point so he had to go in, or would you be happy if he had just stood by whie she killed herself?
And yes, regardless of you training there are no win situations.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to vincentML)

RE: You're black, mentally ill, you call 911, you're dead. - 6/2/2017 11:29:10 AM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

NYC is known for sending cops into unwinnable situations then selling them down the river.

That is a terrible accusation to make without foundation. NYC is justifiably proud of their police and other first responders. Sometimes there is a tragic fuck up and it should be examined.

I urge everyone to read Deborah's essay which I posted in #30. Try to understand the nature of schizophrenia.

The department is good, the city coucil has a history of throwing cops under the bus if it helps them. The fact remains that he was sent into a no win situation.

For police who are properly trained, as this dude probably was, there are no "no-win" situations. No one had a gun to his head to force him to pursue the victim into her home. He had total command of the circumstances. He was in position to make proper decisions. You cannot excuse his actions by blaming some board of people who meet maybe weekly at some distant buildings. He had total and unfettered agency. If people like you and jurors like you would stop turning a blind eye to the power of Authority with gun we would have far less news of these tragedies.

If there are no no win situations why do they have more than one cop?

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to vincentML)

RE: You're black, mentally ill, you call 911, you're dead. - 6/2/2017 1:55:06 PM

Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

NYC is known for sending cops into unwinnable situations then selling them down the river.

That is a terrible accusation to make without foundation. NYC is justifiably proud of their police and other first responders. Sometimes there is a tragic fuck up and it should be examined.

I urge everyone to read Deborah's essay which I posted in #30. Try to understand the nature of schizophrenia.

The department is good, the city coucil has a history of throwing cops under the bus if it helps them. The fact remains that he was sent into a no win situation.

For police who are properly trained, as this dude probably was, there are no "no-win" situations. No one had a gun to his head to force him to pursue the victim into her home. He had total command of the circumstances. He was in position to make proper decisions. You cannot excuse his actions by blaming some board of people who meet maybe weekly at some distant buildings. He had total and unfettered agency. If people like you and jurors like you would stop turning a blind eye to the power of Authority with gun we would have far less news of these tragedies.

If there are no no win situations why do they have more than one cop?

You make my point for me. Exactly. The police can dictate the circumstances of any encounter to their favor. The only exception I can think of is when an officer is ambushed. Otherwise, they have the advantage of training and numbers. Unfortunately, what we too often see is bad judgement or bullying behavior, which comes too easily to people in authority in the moment.

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to BamaD)

RE: You're black, mentally ill, you call 911, you're dead. - 6/2/2017 2:40:30 PM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

NYC is known for sending cops into unwinnable situations then selling them down the river.

That is a terrible accusation to make without foundation. NYC is justifiably proud of their police and other first responders. Sometimes there is a tragic fuck up and it should be examined.

I urge everyone to read Deborah's essay which I posted in #30. Try to understand the nature of schizophrenia.

The department is good, the city coucil has a history of throwing cops under the bus if it helps them. The fact remains that he was sent into a no win situation.

For police who are properly trained, as this dude probably was, there are no "no-win" situations. No one had a gun to his head to force him to pursue the victim into her home. He had total command of the circumstances. He was in position to make proper decisions. You cannot excuse his actions by blaming some board of people who meet maybe weekly at some distant buildings. He had total and unfettered agency. If people like you and jurors like you would stop turning a blind eye to the power of Authority with gun we would have far less news of these tragedies.

If there are no no win situations why do they have more than one cop?

You make my point for me. Exactly. The police can dictate the circumstances of any encounter to their favor. The only exception I can think of is when an officer is ambushed. Otherwise, they have the advantage of training and numbers. Unfortunately, what we too often see is bad judgement or bullying behavior, which comes too easily to people in authority in the moment.

He did not have numbers, that is one of the reasons they are charging him. He can go to jail because they only sent one man. He likely thought that he had defused the situation when he got her to give him the scissors. Thus the assault with the bat may well have come as a surprise, a surprise attack has the same effect on the tactics as an ambush, in fact it is a type of ambush. He may have made a mistake but a tactical error is not the same as murder.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to vincentML)

RE: You're black, mentally ill, you call 911, you're dead. - 6/3/2017 10:46:57 AM

Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline

quote:

He did not have numbers, that is one of the reasons they are charging him. He can go to jail because they only sent one man. He likely thought that he had defused the situation when he got her to give him the scissors. Thus the assault with the bat may well have come as a surprise, a surprise attack has the same effect on the tactics as an ambush, in fact it is a type of ambush. He may have made a mistake but a tactical error is not the same as murder.

She had a scissors. She was naked. She lay down the scissors in compliance. Then picked up a baseball bat.

He was taken by surprise!!!!?? He was what? Caught off guard?

puhleze . . . serve and protect . . . .

Murder . . . manslaughter . . . wtf?

Is she any less dead?

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to BamaD)

RE: You're black, mentally ill, you call 911, you're dead. - 6/3/2017 12:03:43 PM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

He did not have numbers, that is one of the reasons they are charging him. He can go to jail because they only sent one man. He likely thought that he had defused the situation when he got her to give him the scissors. Thus the assault with the bat may well have come as a surprise, a surprise attack has the same effect on the tactics as an ambush, in fact it is a type of ambush. He may have made a mistake but a tactical error is not the same as murder.

She had a scissors. She was naked. She lay down the scissors in compliance. Then picked up a baseball bat.

He was taken by surprise!!!!?? He was what? Caught off guard?

puhleze . . . serve and protect . . . .

Murder . . . manslaughter . . . wtf?

Is she any less dead?

My key problem with this thread is that, as so often the case, the only indication that race had one thing to do with this is your predjudice in the case.
The key problem is that you don't know the exact situation when she attacked with the bat.
There is no indication that he had a weapon drawn so he would have acted instictively.
That means he would have grabed with his strong hand, that is where his gun would be.
This leaves him with a choice of shooting her or letting her beat on him with the bat while he switched weapons.
It doesn't matter what she was wearing.
If he had, as you suggested, just waited outside and she killed herself would she be any less dead.
And yes unless you now the exact positioning of the people when the attack began you can't say that he was not caught of guard.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to vincentML)

RE: You're black, mentally ill, you call 911, you're dead. - 6/3/2017 4:42:34 PM

Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

He did not have numbers, that is one of the reasons they are charging him. He can go to jail because they only sent one man. He likely thought that he had defused the situation when he got her to give him the scissors. Thus the assault with the bat may well have come as a surprise, a surprise attack has the same effect on the tactics as an ambush, in fact it is a type of ambush. He may have made a mistake but a tactical error is not the same as murder.

She had a scissors. She was naked. She lay down the scissors in compliance. Then picked up a baseball bat.

He was taken by surprise!!!!?? He was what? Caught off guard?

puhleze . . . serve and protect . . . .

Murder . . . manslaughter . . . wtf?

Is she any less dead?

My key problem with this thread is that, as so often the case, the only indication that race had one thing to do with this is your predjudice in the case.
The key problem is that you don't know the exact situation when she attacked with the bat.
There is no indication that he had a weapon drawn so he would have acted instictively.
That means he would have grabed with his strong hand, that is where his gun would be.
This leaves him with a choice of shooting her or letting her beat on him with the bat while he switched weapons.
It doesn't matter what she was wearing.
If he had, as you suggested, just waited outside and she killed herself would she be any less dead.
And yes unless you now the exact positioning of the people when the attack began you can't say that he was not caught of guard.

It doesn't matter what she was wearing? lol! Was a clue to her madness, wasn't it? The copper should have been prepared for any possibility. That is his job. Sorry, but I find shameful the contortions you go through to defend this killing. You are amazing. And repetitive. Since you have nothing new of substance to say, I am outta here. Bye!

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to BamaD)

RE: You're black, mentally ill, you call 911, you're dead. - 6/3/2017 6:33:02 PM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

He did not have numbers, that is one of the reasons they are charging him. He can go to jail because they only sent one man. He likely thought that he had defused the situation when he got her to give him the scissors. Thus the assault with the bat may well have come as a surprise, a surprise attack has the same effect on the tactics as an ambush, in fact it is a type of ambush. He may have made a mistake but a tactical error is not the same as murder.

She had a scissors. She was naked. She lay down the scissors in compliance. Then picked up a baseball bat.

He was taken by surprise!!!!?? He was what? Caught off guard?

puhleze . . . serve and protect . . . .

Murder . . . manslaughter . . . wtf?

Is she any less dead?

My key problem with this thread is that, as so often the case, the only indication that race had one thing to do with this is your predjudice in the case.
The key problem is that you don't know the exact situation when she attacked with the bat.
There is no indication that he had a weapon drawn so he would have acted instictively.
That means he would have grabed with his strong hand, that is where his gun would be.
This leaves him with a choice of shooting her or letting her beat on him with the bat while he switched weapons.
It doesn't matter what she was wearing.
If he had, as you suggested, just waited outside and she killed herself would she be any less dead.
And yes unless you now the exact positioning of the people when the attack began you can't say that he was not caught of guard.

It doesn't matter what she was wearing? lol! Was a clue to her madness, wasn't it? The copper should have been prepared for any possibility. That is his job. Sorry, but I find shameful the contortions you go through to defend this killing. You are amazing. And repetitive. Since you have nothing new of substance to say, I am outta here. Bye!

You don't realize that you are as repetitive as I am as we go over the same things.
Either they knew she was a mental case and should have sent more people or they put him in an awful situation.
You act like the fact that she was a mental case made her less dangerous when the exact oposite is true.

You want to make it a racial issue when if he was going to shoot her for being black he would have done it when she had the sicserss.
You don't like the fact that I see where the people who weren't there him up with a horrible situation and then dumped it all on him.
You don't understand that those people far away in buildings decide what they want the cop to do and then don't back them when somethong goes wrong.
And worst of all you make everything about race even though you have not, with the last three threads (no doubt more), given one shred of evidence that race had anything to do with it, except of course. for your blatant bias on the subject.
Since you hate cops so much I don't see why you would object to my condeming the system, except that when the going gets tough you can count on the to hang the cops out to dry, but it street cops you really hate.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to vincentML)

RE: You're black, mentally ill, you call 911, you're dead. - 6/4/2017 11:52:44 AM

Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline

The woman is in distress. Even if she is more dangerous she should not be treated like a mad dog and shot down in her own apartment. I don't want to make this personal but I really can not understand your lack of empathy for another human life. I think we should end this here because it should not become more personal between you and me.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 6/4/2017 11:53:54 AM >

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to BamaD)

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