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Congress pass new abortion law to ban late term abortion - 10/3/2017 7:28:18 PM   
Greta75


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Okay not being familiar with US terms. After reading it, i was completely unsure if does this mean these laws are legislated or not.

But you know what? The laws are sane, humane and really fair.

Women who are raped, and if their life is threatened by delivering the baby can still abort.

And they give a very generous 20 weeks, that's up till 5 months to abort the baby, before it's too late.

I think it's a very good compromise.

Most late term abortions puts the mother life at risk anyway!

In my country, abortion is only legal within the first 24 weeks. Pretty much close to the same laws now.



Good Job Trump!
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RE: Congress pass new abortion law to ban late term abo... - 10/3/2017 10:10:52 PM   
MercTech


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A lot of the legal and medical definitions have to do with what state of growth a fetus is in. At what point does a fetus become a separate life?
Abortion in the first trimester can be done by an induced miscarriage with little chance of complications
Second trimester can be a bit more problematic.
An abortion in the third trimester is a surgical procedure.

Third trimester abortions are very legally problematic as, with medical intervention, the fetus might well survive.
First trimester abortions are common. Some jurisdictions limit abortions in the second trimester to medically necessary. And many areas ban third trimester abortions altogether unless necessary to save the mother's life.

A federal ban on third trimester abortions might well not be legal. But, federal funding not being provided for third trimester abortions would fly easily in the current political climate.
The state I live in bans abortions after the 24th week unless to save a mother's life.

(in reply to Greta75)
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RE: Congress pass new abortion law to ban late term abo... - 10/3/2017 10:36:16 PM   
Greta75


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Well, I think 24 weeks is seriously very fair, or even 20 weeks. I mean, woman who uses abortion as birth control! Stop being wishy washy about abortion! Either get rid of it or don't! And get it done ASAP if they wanted it gone!

Don't delay, and don't wait!

It makes the removal of fetus more and more complicated as they keep delaying their decision.

And HONESTLY if any woman has any doubts about abortion, they should NOT abort. They gonna live with guilt for the rest of their life.

The ones who are quite comfortable with aborting, would just have immediately get it done.

(in reply to MercTech)
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RE: Congress pass new abortion law to ban late term abo... - 10/4/2017 7:21:13 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75
Okay not being familiar with US terms. After reading it, i was completely unsure if does this mean these laws are legislated or not.
But you know what? The laws are sane, humane and really fair.
Women who are raped, and if their life is threatened by delivering the baby can still abort.
And they give a very generous 20 weeks, that's up till 5 months to abort the baby, before it's too late.
I think it's a very good compromise.
Most late term abortions puts the mother life at risk anyway!
In my country, abortion is only legal within the first 24 weeks. Pretty much close to the same laws now.
Good Job Trump!


This is really a way to define things Roe v. Wade couldn't specify. At issue is when government has a compelling interest in regulating abortion. Because medical science can't pinpoint a time at which a fetus is viable (at which point, it's assumed the fetus is a human life and not just a mass of cells), we're going to continue to see laws trying to shorten the time at which abortion is legally available in almost all cases. After viability, there has to be some sort of reason other than the woman doesn't want to give birth to the child (ie. serious risk to the mother's health).



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RE: Congress pass new abortion law to ban late term abo... - 10/4/2017 8:36:53 AM   
bounty44


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desi, im usually right there with you on the things you say, but in this case, im going to take a little issue with the "human life" as opposed to "a mass of cells" differentiation.

those terms are more political than medical science, where the argument is, as you pointed out, about viability.

to the pro-life side, its always a "human life."

the "mass of cells" phrase was, especially before advances in medical technology, almost exclusively a tool of the pro-abortion side.

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RE: Congress pass new abortion law to ban late term abo... - 10/4/2017 9:41:11 AM   
Nnanji


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FR

Not having a great big opinion on abortion I hardly ever weigh in on the subject. But there is this:

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/08/in-liberal-europe-abortion-laws-come-with-their-own-restrictions/278350/

quote:

In the USA, where nearly half of pregnancies are unintended and four in 10 of these are terminated by abortion [1] , there are over 3,000 abortions per day. Twenty-two percent of all pregnancies in the USA (excluding miscarriages) end in abortion. [2]


http://www.worldometers.info/abortions/

The US has extreme weird laws compared to liberal Europe and on the day that 59 people were killed in Las Vegas its estimated 3,000 abortions took place in the US.

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RE: Congress pass new abortion law to ban late term abo... - 10/4/2017 10:06:54 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
desi, im usually right there with you on the things you say, but in this case, im going to take a little issue with the "human life" as opposed to "a mass of cells" differentiation.
those terms are more political than medical science, where the argument is, as you pointed out, about viability.
to the pro-life side, its always a "human life."
the "mass of cells" phrase was, especially before advances in medical technology, almost exclusively a tool of the pro-abortion side.


I know. I stand by my phrase usage. Initially, that's all it is; a mass of cells. The cells are undergoing amazing transformations and differentiating, but, it's still a mass of cells. At some point, it becomes a little tiny human, but therein lies the issue. At what point does it become a human, and gain human rights?

Lots of people will make the claim that human rights aren't conferred until birth, which should make abortion legal right up until birth, as there are no rights being abridged by the mother having the fetus killed.

Others see it differently and think rights are conferred at fertilization. Well, shit, that brings up all sorts of legal question marks. Like, if a pregnant woman engages in some risky behavior that results in the death of the fetus (aka miscarriage), that could end up being involuntary manslaughter.

Somewhere in between those two extremes is where we find ourselves (as usual). Acknowledging both sides of the argument will actually help further discussion and just might end up with an agreement that few love, but also few hate; leaving the vast majority to accept the compromise position.

Let's face it, this is one of those things that will not be solved in our lifetimes.


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RE: Congress pass new abortion law to ban late term abo... - 10/4/2017 10:33:12 AM   
servantforuse


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When a pregnant woman is murdered, or maybe killed by an impaired driver, the person responsible is usually charged with two deaths. It is a baby and not a bunch of cells.

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RE: Congress pass new abortion law to ban late term abo... - 10/4/2017 10:58:43 AM   
WhoreMods


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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

When a pregnant woman is murdered, or maybe killed by an impaired driver, the person responsible is usually charged with two deaths. It is a baby and not a bunch of cells.

When it can breathe, eat and move its bowels and bladder under its own steam, then it's a person.
Hell, let's go with Plato and say a child isn't a human being until its soul enters its body when it's four or so...

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RE: Congress pass new abortion law to ban late term abo... - 10/4/2017 11:09:31 AM   
LadyPact


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I'm going to ask for a link for this one, too. It's hard to answer the question reasonably without the source material. (That's not a dig against you. It's just really hard to keep up with everything with so much crossing new feeds.)

I don't know about the Federal restriction that you are referencing. Several states have various statutes that are directly related to viability. The very definition of viability relates to "able to survive successfully". The inferred part when we're talking about a fetus implies "outside/independent of the womb". It is not as simple as 'kill a pregnant woman and be charged with two deaths'. A fetus at eight weeks gestation is not the same in criminal law as a fetus at 28 weeks gestation.


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RE: Congress pass new abortion law to ban late term abo... - 10/4/2017 11:16:08 AM   
servantforuse


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Not according to the law. People are often charged with 2 deaths when a pregnant woman is killed. The baby doesn't have to be living and breathing.

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RE: Congress pass new abortion law to ban late term abo... - 10/4/2017 11:23:02 AM   
WhoreMods


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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Not according to the law. People are often charged with 2 deaths when a pregnant woman is killed. The baby doesn't have to be living and breathing.

Well, I suppose that's necessary preparation if they want to charge people with assault or murder for killing a parasite, isn't it?


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RE: Congress pass new abortion law to ban late term abo... - 10/4/2017 11:34:24 AM   
servantforuse


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I think I'm pretty sure that most women carrying a child, don't think of it as a parasite.

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RE: Congress pass new abortion law to ban late term abo... - 10/4/2017 11:37:44 AM   
WhoreMods


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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

I think I'm pretty sure that most women carrying a child, don't think of it as a parasite.

Parasite is no less emotive a term than child.


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RE: Congress pass new abortion law to ban late term abo... - 10/4/2017 11:57:41 AM   
JVoV


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I don't mind restricting late term abortions. But I would prefer a plan that includes having moneys go towards sexual education and normal birth control, including morning after pills.

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RE: Congress pass new abortion law to ban late term abo... - 10/4/2017 12:00:54 PM   
bounty44


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the issue is not one of which term is more "emotive."

"child" accurately describes what it is, a biological end product of sex, designed to further the species and to differentiate it from an adult.

"parasite" stretches the historical definition of the term by pro abortion people to now include an unborn baby and its used in a derogatory fashion meant to diminish the baby.

heres what I posted last time that vile word came up:

quote:

Yes and no. In the strictest biological sense babies–whether preborn or not–cannot be parasites because, first, they are of the same species as their parents. Tapeworms or hookworms or leeches can all be parasites as they are not of the same species as the animals they infest. In that literal biological sense, human fetuses are not parasites.

Second, no textbook in embryology or fetology categorizes the human fetus as a parasitic organism.

Third, parasitic organisms are categorized as such regardless of their stage of development, but it would be an overreach to universally label as “parasites” all humans beings throughout their lifespan. If they start as parasites in the womb, they’d need to be parasites even out of the womb and on to adulthood.

Fourth, it is presumed that young members of any given species are liable to be deeply dependent on their parents or community.

Fifth, the mammalian mother, in particular, is physically and psychologically built to nurture a gestating child which shares half her DNA. The relation, then, is intrinsic being within the family and, for what it’s worth, “natural.” The human race could not survive without this relation, meanwhile no such hosts in the rest of the animal kingdom need their respective parasites to this degree.

Sixth, with the interpersonal dynamic of mother to child, that relationship is more symbiotic than parasitic. Parasites, on the other hand exploit incidental features of their hosts with no interpersonal relation while typically harming the host. Such a host might have warmth and nutrition for a parasite, but it’s a difficult case to parallel that with the mother’s fantastically fine tune environment for the developing child inside her.

Seventh, the child-in-utero is not necessarily or normally a mortal threat to the mother, meanwhile the normal or “natural” disposition of parasites means harm and often mortal danger to the host. Some pregnancies incur medical complications putting the mothers health or life at risk, but–unlike parasitic relations–these dangerous pregnancies are not the normal, necessary, or intrinsic relation of child to mother....

The “parasite” affiliation runs the risk of a “loaded word” fallacy, proving nothing in directly logical terms but instead slandering the preborn child with connotations of “weed,” “unwanted,” “harmful,” and “deadly.” To justify killing a human being, something more than “parasite” would need to be established, such as “deadly assailant” or “murderer” or “rapist.” That case can be made if the child represents an distinct medical threat to the mother’s life, such as with tubal pregnancies. The baby is instrumentally threatening the mothers life, and so it would not be a loaded word but an apt description to call that preborn child–instrumentally deadly. That is an unfortunate but real scenario, yet when it occurs, that child’s presence threatens the life of the mother, and might be justifiably aborted on the grounds of self-defense. Those sorts of cases are widely admitted justifications for killing a human being, but apart from tubal pregnancies (and similar cases) the death penalty just doesn’t apply....

The “parasite” affiliation is also a non-sequitur. It “does not follow” logically into a pro-choice position especially since all human beings go through a stage where they are similar to parasites. If parasites should be destroyed, then–following the logic to it’s absurd ends–it seems all human beings should be destroyed. Even if one admits that parasites are also unwanted, and many children in utero are wanted, that does not change the fact that lots of brothers-in-law sleeping on the couch are “unwanted” guests. Why are they allowed to live there? Because it’s one’s family duty, or it’s the charitable thing to do, or he could really use some help right now after his divorce. In short, overriding family responsibilities–at least in that case–contradict the notion that unwanted dependents can rightly be expelled from one’s domain eventuating their death...

Lastly, it can be admitted that children, in utero or ex utero, are very dependent human beings, desperately needing the their parents. But just as puppies and kittens need extra love and care, so do baby humans. Their dependence is just cause for loving them tenderly and caring for them selflessly. Their dependence hardly excuses neglecting and killing them, as implied by this pro-choice lingo.


https://abortionhistorymuseum.wordpress.com/2014/06/24/are-human-fetuses-parasites/







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RE: Congress pass new abortion law to ban late term abo... - 10/4/2017 12:27:55 PM   
tamaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

I think I'm pretty sure that most women carrying a child, don't think of it as a parasite.


His mother did.

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RE: Congress pass new abortion law to ban late term abo... - 10/4/2017 12:48:56 PM   
servantforuse


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He should also be glad that his mother was pro life.

(in reply to tamaka)
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RE: Congress pass new abortion law to ban late term abo... - 10/4/2017 2:01:56 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

the issue is not one of which term is more "emotive."

"child" accurately describes what it is, a biological end product of sex, designed to further the species and to differentiate it from an adult.

"parasite" stretches the historical definition of the term by pro abortion people to now include an unborn baby and its used in a derogatory fashion meant to diminish the baby.

heres what I posted last time that vile word came up:

quote:

Yes and no. In the strictest biological sense babies–whether preborn or not–cannot be parasites because, first, they are of the same species as their parents. Tapeworms or hookworms or leeches can all be parasites as they are not of the same species as the animals they infest. In that literal biological sense, human fetuses are not parasites.

Second, no textbook in embryology or fetology categorizes the human fetus as a parasitic organism.

Third, parasitic organisms are categorized as such regardless of their stage of development, but it would be an overreach to universally label as “parasites” all humans beings throughout their lifespan. If they start as parasites in the womb, they’d need to be parasites even out of the womb and on to adulthood.

Fourth, it is presumed that young members of any given species are liable to be deeply dependent on their parents or community.

Fifth, the mammalian mother, in particular, is physically and psychologically built to nurture a gestating child which shares half her DNA. The relation, then, is intrinsic being within the family and, for what it’s worth, “natural.” The human race could not survive without this relation, meanwhile no such hosts in the rest of the animal kingdom need their respective parasites to this degree.

Sixth, with the interpersonal dynamic of mother to child, that relationship is more symbiotic than parasitic. Parasites, on the other hand exploit incidental features of their hosts with no interpersonal relation while typically harming the host. Such a host might have warmth and nutrition for a parasite, but it’s a difficult case to parallel that with the mother’s fantastically fine tune environment for the developing child inside her.

Seventh, the child-in-utero is not necessarily or normally a mortal threat to the mother, meanwhile the normal or “natural” disposition of parasites means harm and often mortal danger to the host. Some pregnancies incur medical complications putting the mothers health or life at risk, but–unlike parasitic relations–these dangerous pregnancies are not the normal, necessary, or intrinsic relation of child to mother....

The “parasite” affiliation runs the risk of a “loaded word” fallacy, proving nothing in directly logical terms but instead slandering the preborn child with connotations of “weed,” “unwanted,” “harmful,” and “deadly.” To justify killing a human being, something more than “parasite” would need to be established, such as “deadly assailant” or “murderer” or “rapist.” That case can be made if the child represents an distinct medical threat to the mother’s life, such as with tubal pregnancies. The baby is instrumentally threatening the mothers life, and so it would not be a loaded word but an apt description to call that preborn child–instrumentally deadly. That is an unfortunate but real scenario, yet when it occurs, that child’s presence threatens the life of the mother, and might be justifiably aborted on the grounds of self-defense. Those sorts of cases are widely admitted justifications for killing a human being, but apart from tubal pregnancies (and similar cases) the death penalty just doesn’t apply....

The “parasite” affiliation is also a non-sequitur. It “does not follow” logically into a pro-choice position especially since all human beings go through a stage where they are similar to parasites. If parasites should be destroyed, then–following the logic to it’s absurd ends–it seems all human beings should be destroyed. Even if one admits that parasites are also unwanted, and many children in utero are wanted, that does not change the fact that lots of brothers-in-law sleeping on the couch are “unwanted” guests. Why are they allowed to live there? Because it’s one’s family duty, or it’s the charitable thing to do, or he could really use some help right now after his divorce. In short, overriding family responsibilities–at least in that case–contradict the notion that unwanted dependents can rightly be expelled from one’s domain eventuating their death...

Lastly, it can be admitted that children, in utero or ex utero, are very dependent human beings, desperately needing the their parents. But just as puppies and kittens need extra love and care, so do baby humans. Their dependence is just cause for loving them tenderly and caring for them selflessly. Their dependence hardly excuses neglecting and killing them, as implied by this pro-choice lingo.


https://abortionhistorymuseum.wordpress.com/2014/06/24/are-human-fetuses-parasites/








I thought you claimed to be Libertarian at one time. What happened?

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RE: Congress pass new abortion law to ban late term abo... - 10/4/2017 2:53:56 PM   
heavyblinker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
I thought you claimed to be Libertarian at one time. What happened?


I'm guessing he was a Libertarian for Romney and now that it's Trump all of that is behind him.

Knowing who is in power makes me nervous that this is the first step the Christian fascists are taking towards completely destroying women's rights.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
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