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“Yes, means yes and no, no”? - 12/14/2017 2:14:39 PM   
Milesnmiles


Posts: 1349
Joined: 12/28/2013
Status: offline
“Yes, means yes and no, no”, this along with consent have been offered as the solution to serious problems between men and women.

In a couple of threads I started, the platitude “Yes, means yes and no, no” quickly came up and the way it was used got me to wondering if this simple platitude was everything they thought it was.

As I began to question it, I realized that some felt that questioning it was not to be allowed and that my questioning it meant that I had some evil intent in doing so.

It seems some have set “Yes, means yes and no, no”, along with consent, up as a “Golden Idol” and if you don’t immediately kneel and do obeisance it, then you are a heretic and infidel and no attempt to reason with you should be made and you be cursed and insulted until you submit to this “Golden Idol”.

Well, before the cursing and insults begin let me tell you about this “Golden Idol”.

First, like all platitudes this one does have a nugget of truth but is of limited use and even then, needs to be used with intelligence.

Both ends of “Yes, means yes and no, no”, without serious qualifications, is all but useless.

In the case of “Yes means yes”, those under the influence of drugs and alcohol or those who are mentally incapable of making such decisions, yes just does not mean yes.

As for the “no means no” part, there are subs and slaves who do not want anything to do with “no means no” and in fact want all decisions to be taken away from them and in fact there are those who want to be raped not play acted but just taken and raped, that’s how they get off. Are we to tell them that they can’t have what they really want? They want no taken away from them.

You can rationalize that these things should be “understood” but if you're going to make this a “Golden Idol” shouldn’t you giving some guidelines on how it should be understood and used?

But those are just minor problems with this “Golden Idol” you’ve set up.

One of the major problems is that it just doesn’t do what you feel it does. Somehow you feel like behind this “Golden Idol”, that you are safe as gold in Fort Knox but this “Golden Idol” doesn’t provide you with thick walls and a moat.

“Yes, means yes and no, no”, along with consent are nothing more than a “Gentleman’s Agreement” and as long as both have agreed to it and both are “Gentleman”, then great you’re safe but all it takes is one broken “promise” and you are no longer safe.

Now for the biggest flaw in “Yes, means yes and no, no”, what if they agree with you? That “Yes, means yes and no, no” and then shows you what “Yes, means yes and no, no” really means and points out that you didn’t really specify who’s “Yes, means yes and no, no” and so it is their “Yes, means yes and no, no” and not yours.

So, what is the moral to the story, what is the point? If you’re putting all your eggs in one basket and hiding behind “Yes, means yes and no, no”, along with consent and expecting to be saved from the monsters out there in the real world, might I suggest you find something a little more substantial.



Profile   Post #: 1
RE: “Yes, means yes and no, no”? - 12/14/2017 2:53:19 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline
I think your problem is you believe that we think that "the monsters out there in the real world" will take no for an answer. reality is, we are too well aware of the "real world" rapists and assaulters, abusers and other assorted scum.
Wrong Premise
Its why we have laws
And punish those who break them.
And why laws need to be enforced, for the morons who wont take no...for an answer.
I dont consent to having my property stolen....
its called theft.

It might happen, no guarantees in life, but if caught, punishment will be meted out.
Again you would benefit from learning how to post a well thought out OP..
because that wasnt one either.
jus mnsho



_____________________________

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\(•_•)
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(in reply to Milesnmiles)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: “Yes, means yes and no, no”? - 12/14/2017 3:23:54 PM   
Whiplashsmile4


Posts: 2298
Joined: 12/2/2008
Status: offline
OK, I'm sitting here thinking to myself... Here we go again with yet another thread on basically the same damn thing.

This kind of shit has not been a big issue or problem for me. I've had a great deal of sexual latitude in my relationships and those which I've dated. Even better is the fact that I have been the one to which Permission to do various things was asked of... So if anybody was responsible for a lot of this YES/NO none sense it was me. I don't always give permission either.

I'm just sitting here kind of mind blown to be honest. I haven't been with anybody in a relationship, which denied me using them for Sex and other things. Hell, I'm the type if it's the middle of the night and I want to get off... I will use somebody half sleeping. I might be kind and let the sleep... but I'll jack off and cum all over their tits, ass or whatever. General idea of things.

There was not some none stop ongoing affair of repeated permissions to do a lot of things.

With a complete stranger, Yes this stuff really does matter. I won't be involved with anybody which I can't grab their ass any time I feel like grabbing it. Nor anybody which I can't grab them by their pussy any time I want to. Why the hell would I torture myself being in a relationship where there was none stop negotiation over so many things? LOL.

I'm sort of shaking my head wondering about what all these threads are really all about?

I'm not into truly abusing and using anybody against their consent or will. With complete strangers, I roll with yes being yes and no being no... unless there is some other level of clarity injected or involved.

What's the real deal behind all these threads?

_____________________________

Жизнь ума ебет.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUzJI4Palq0

(in reply to Milesnmiles)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: “Yes, means yes and no, no”? - 12/14/2017 4:02:43 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline
And just because a woman is afraid to say no, doesn’t mean she’s consented.

The only thing that means yes is an enthusiastic yes. A sullen ‘I guess so’ doesn’t mean yes. Neither does ‘if you promise to leave right after’.

Unless it’s obvious through her words that she wants to, apologize and leave her alone.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


(in reply to Whiplashsmile4)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: “Yes, means yes and no, no”? - 12/14/2017 4:26:53 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

And just because a woman is afraid to say no, doesn’t mean she’s consented.

The only thing that means yes is an enthusiastic yes. A sullen ‘I guess so’ doesn’t mean yes. Neither does ‘if you promise to leave right after’.

Unless it’s obvious through her words that she wants to, apologize and leave her alone.


I think that gets to the nub of it, for me.

'Yes means yes, no means no' is questionable as a maxim if we assume that it's just the words that matter. I've for a long time suspected that people who get away with rape, for instance, in court cases, can do so (at least partly and in some cases) a) because they're able to make out that they're 'illiterate' when it comes to reading body language, facial expressions, emotions - all non-verbal communication, in fact and b) because it's unreasonable that there should be a requirement that they *be* 'literate' in any of these non-verbal ways.

_____________________________

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(in reply to DesFIP)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: “Yes, means yes and no, no”? - 12/14/2017 8:48:48 PM   
Milesnmiles


Posts: 1349
Joined: 12/28/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

I think your problem is you believe that we think that "the monsters out there in the real world" will take no for an answer. reality is, we are too well aware of the "real world" rapists and assaulters, abusers and other assorted scum.
Wrong Premise
Its why we have laws
And punish those who break them.
And why laws need to be enforced, for the morons who wont take no...for an answer.
I dont consent to having my property stolen....
its called theft.

It might happen, no guarantees in life, but if caught, punishment will be meted out.
Again you would benefit from learning how to post a well thought out OP..
because that wasnt one either.
jus mnsho



Great, let's talk about my problems.

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: “Yes, means yes and no, no”? - 12/15/2017 9:53:42 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32561
Status: offline
People are going to start to think I'm a freaking masochist.

I'm going to put this at the top, too. I'm probably not going to be invested in this enough to beat the same horse to death. While I consider consent to be a very important topic, I just don't have the energy (or time) to keep putting keystrokes into 'but what about this or that hair to split'.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles
“Yes, means yes and no, no”, this along with consent have been offered as the solution to serious problems between men and women.

In a couple of threads I started, the platitude “Yes, means yes and no, no” quickly came up and the way it was used got me to wondering if this simple platitude was everything they thought it was.

As I began to question it, I realized that some felt that questioning it was not to be allowed and that my questioning it meant that I had some evil intent in doing so.

It seems some have set “Yes, means yes and no, no”, along with consent, up as a “Golden Idol” and if you don’t immediately kneel and do obeisance it, then you are a heretic and infidel and no attempt to reason with you should be made and you be cursed and insulted until you submit to this “Golden Idol”.

Well, before the cursing and insults begin let me tell you about this “Golden Idol”.

First, like all platitudes this one does have a nugget of truth but is of limited use and even then, needs to be used with intelligence.

Both ends of “Yes, means yes and no, no”, without serious qualifications, is all but useless.


In the case of “Yes means yes”, those under the influence of drugs and alcohol or those who are mentally incapable of making such decisions, yes just does not mean yes.

At some point, I expect the average person to have something that I'm going with as reasonable, common knowledge. By this, I mean the vast majority of the adults living in the United States are aware of the fact that there are certain categories of people who can not legally consent, so any 'yes' obtained is invalid. Following this, it isn't plausible to equate 'yes means yes' as you would the same as someone who can legally consent because what you're really dealing with would be more 'yes without the legal basis to say yes'.

Coercion is another example. (Basic example of coercion being "agree to do X or I will <insert horrible thing here.>) Attempting to use a person's "yes" that was obtained under threat or duress isn't a legally obtained yes.

Should we be using extreme examples like this to attempt to invalidate theories such as enthusiastic or informed consent between adults who are capable of consent? Probably not.

As a personal note, I'm probably not going to feel bad for anybody who tries to start screaming that they shouldn't be held responsible for specifically targeting those who can't legally consent by trying the 'but the person said yes' bit. Trying to twist 'yes means yes' while ignoring 'can't legally consent' is somewhat repugnant.

quote:

As for the “no means no” part, there are subs and slaves who do not want anything to do with “no means no” and in fact want all decisions to be taken away from them and in fact there are those who want to be raped not play acted but just taken and raped, that’s how they get off. Are we to tell them that they can’t have what they really want? They want no taken away from them.

I don't think that those interested in alternative lifestyles/sexuality should attempt to see society in general through kink colored glasses. I view it the same way as I do regarding S/m. Yep. There are definitely people on this planet that enjoy the heck out of me hitting them with a crop. I don't walk out my front door and start whacking people on the street because there is a small fraction of other people that like it.

Maybe not the best math, but I was interested, so here are some numbers. As of 2016, there were 7.4~ billion people on the planet. Not even 1% of that number have a Fetlife account. Of that one percent, there honestly isn't any way without some serious flipping research, to figure out just how many of those people want to do a 'forced' anything scenario. From that smaller number, we always know there are some people who just fantasize about it compared to those who actually want to do it. Does this mean that we should invalidate that a person's "no" should be accepted? I don't think so.

quote:

You can rationalize that these things should be “understood” but if you're going to make this a “Golden Idol” shouldn’t you giving some guidelines on how it should be understood and used?

Should I? No. We have a criminal justice system that does that just fine, and while it's not perfect, it does a dang better job at the matter than I ever could.

quote:

But those are just minor problems with this “Golden Idol” you’ve set up.

One of the major problems is that it just doesn’t do what you feel it does. Somehow you feel like behind this “Golden Idol”, that you are safe as gold in Fort Knox but this “Golden Idol” doesn’t provide you with thick walls and a moat.

“Yes, means yes and no, no”, along with consent are nothing more than a “Gentleman’s Agreement” and as long as both have agreed to it and both are “Gentleman”, then great you’re safe but all it takes is one broken “promise” and you are no longer safe.

Hey, congrats! You did finally find something I agree with.

This is pretty much true about the nature of humans. There are no guarantees in life that anybody will do what they say and say what they do. There is no way on this planet for anybody to know as fact that any other person they encounter will not screw them over. It's a sad and disappointing truth, but it's reality, nonetheless.

quote:

Now for the biggest flaw in “Yes, means yes and no, no”, what if they agree with you? That “Yes, means yes and no, no” and then shows you what “Yes, means yes and no, no” really means and points out that you didn’t really specify who’s “Yes, means yes and no, no” and so it is their “Yes, means yes and no, no” and not yours.

As much as I talk, do you really think I'm difficult to understand? [/sarcasm]

There's some stuff I could say about this that I'm going to refrain on for now. It's a pretty dark path and I'm not sure I'm up to it toady. I'll try something else, instead.

My personal theory is whoever between the people engaging has the higher standard of consent wins. If you (general you) are not the person with the higher standard of consent, it might be wise to adhere to the other person's. Lacking that, it might be prudent to start researching what would apply in law.

quote:

So, what is the moral to the story, what is the point? If you’re putting all your eggs in one basket and hiding behind “Yes, means yes and no, no”, along with consent and expecting to be saved from the monsters out there in the real world, might I suggest you find something a little more substantial.

Again, I'm going with researching law or investigating what agencies can help you. If something criminal has happened to you (again, general you) at least look at your options.

Something else I'm going to say. I'm not particularly sure we can have reasonable discussions about consent in kink if we keep dragging the section of the population who couldn't care a flying fig less about consent into the discussion. I'm not going to sit here and try to say that 'no meaning no' is going to stop anybody that is hellbent on sexually assaulting someone.

Not discussing the (actual) criminal element and going back to people participating in consensual kink, I really can't lead people by the nose and get them to ask themselves "do I have consent" or even "do I really have consent" when they are engaging with others. Personally, I think it would be awesome if I had the ability to do that, but I don't. While I'd encourage people to figure out how they determine whether they have consent or not, there's no way for me to make them do it.



_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to Milesnmiles)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: “Yes, means yes and no, no”? - 12/15/2017 11:41:04 AM   
ThatDizzyChick


Posts: 5490
Status: offline


_____________________________

Not your average bimbo.

(in reply to Milesnmiles)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: “Yes, means yes and no, no”? - 12/15/2017 4:42:59 PM   
MissKatya


Posts: 341
Joined: 12/21/2007
From: NYC
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick




Damn...you beat me to it.

**insert drum shot**

_____________________________

"The desire to inflict pain, that is all that is uppermost"-Albert Fish

(in reply to ThatDizzyChick)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: “Yes, means yes and no, no”? - 12/15/2017 4:56:56 PM   
Milesnmiles


Posts: 1349
Joined: 12/28/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

People are going to start to think I'm a freaking masochist.

I'm going to put this at the top, too. I'm probably not going to be invested in this enough to beat the same horse to death. While I consider consent to be a very important topic, I just don't have the energy (or time) to keep putting keystrokes into 'but what about this or that hair to split'.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles
“Yes, means yes and no, no”, this along with consent have been offered as the solution to serious problems between men and women.

In a couple of threads I started, the platitude “Yes, means yes and no, no” quickly came up and the way it was used got me to wondering if this simple platitude was everything they thought it was.

As I began to question it, I realized that some felt that questioning it was not to be allowed and that my questioning it meant that I had some evil intent in doing so.

It seems some have set “Yes, means yes and no, no”, along with consent, up as a “Golden Idol” and if you don’t immediately kneel and do obeisance it, then you are a heretic and infidel and no attempt to reason with you should be made and you be cursed and insulted until you submit to this “Golden Idol”.

Well, before the cursing and insults begin let me tell you about this “Golden Idol”.

First, like all platitudes this one does have a nugget of truth but is of limited use and even then, needs to be used with intelligence.

Both ends of “Yes, means yes and no, no”, without serious qualifications, is all but useless.


In the case of “Yes means yes”, those under the influence of drugs and alcohol or those who are mentally incapable of making such decisions, yes just does not mean yes.

At some point, I expect the average person to have something that I'm going with as reasonable, common knowledge. By this, I mean the vast majority of the adults living in the United States are aware of the fact that there are certain categories of people who can not legally consent, so any 'yes' obtained is invalid. Following this, it isn't plausible to equate 'yes means yes' as you would the same as someone who can legally consent because what you're really dealing with would be more 'yes without the legal basis to say yes'.

Coercion is another example. (Basic example of coercion being "agree to do X or I will <insert horrible thing here.>) Attempting to use a person's "yes" that was obtained under threat or duress isn't a legally obtained yes.

Should we be using extreme examples like this to attempt to invalidate theories such as enthusiastic or informed consent between adults who are capable of consent? Probably not.

As a personal note, I'm probably not going to feel bad for anybody who tries to start screaming that they shouldn't be held responsible for specifically targeting those who can't legally consent by trying the 'but the person said yes' bit. Trying to twist 'yes means yes' while ignoring 'can't legally consent' is somewhat repugnant.

quote:

As for the “no means no” part, there are subs and slaves who do not want anything to do with “no means no” and in fact want all decisions to be taken away from them and in fact there are those who want to be raped not play acted but just taken and raped, that’s how they get off. Are we to tell them that they can’t have what they really want? They want no taken away from them.

I don't think that those interested in alternative lifestyles/sexuality should attempt to see society in general through kink colored glasses. I view it the same way as I do regarding S/m. Yep. There are definitely people on this planet that enjoy the heck out of me hitting them with a crop. I don't walk out my front door and start whacking people on the street because there is a small fraction of other people that like it.

Maybe not the best math, but I was interested, so here are some numbers. As of 2016, there were 7.4~ billion people on the planet. Not even 1% of that number have a Fetlife account. Of that one percent, there honestly isn't any way without some serious flipping research, to figure out just how many of those people want to do a 'forced' anything scenario. From that smaller number, we always know there are some people who just fantasize about it compared to those who actually want to do it. Does this mean that we should invalidate that a person's "no" should be accepted? I don't think so.

quote:

You can rationalize that these things should be “understood” but if you're going to make this a “Golden Idol” shouldn’t you giving some guidelines on how it should be understood and used?

Should I? No. We have a criminal justice system that does that just fine, and while it's not perfect, it does a dang better job at the matter than I ever could.

quote:

But those are just minor problems with this “Golden Idol” you’ve set up.

One of the major problems is that it just doesn’t do what you feel it does. Somehow you feel like behind this “Golden Idol”, that you are safe as gold in Fort Knox but this “Golden Idol” doesn’t provide you with thick walls and a moat.

“Yes, means yes and no, no”, along with consent are nothing more than a “Gentleman’s Agreement” and as long as both have agreed to it and both are “Gentleman”, then great you’re safe but all it takes is one broken “promise” and you are no longer safe.

Hey, congrats! You did finally find something I agree with.

This is pretty much true about the nature of humans. There are no guarantees in life that anybody will do what they say and say what they do. There is no way on this planet for anybody to know as fact that any other person they encounter will not screw them over. It's a sad and disappointing truth, but it's reality, nonetheless.

quote:

Now for the biggest flaw in “Yes, means yes and no, no”, what if they agree with you? That “Yes, means yes and no, no” and then shows you what “Yes, means yes and no, no” really means and points out that you didn’t really specify who’s “Yes, means yes and no, no” and so it is their “Yes, means yes and no, no” and not yours.

As much as I talk, do you really think I'm difficult to understand? [/sarcasm]

There's some stuff I could say about this that I'm going to refrain on for now. It's a pretty dark path and I'm not sure I'm up to it toady. I'll try something else, instead.

My personal theory is whoever between the people engaging has the higher standard of consent wins. If you (general you) are not the person with the higher standard of consent, it might be wise to adhere to the other person's. Lacking that, it might be prudent to start researching what would apply in law.

quote:

So, what is the moral to the story, what is the point? If you’re putting all your eggs in one basket and hiding behind “Yes, means yes and no, no”, along with consent and expecting to be saved from the monsters out there in the real world, might I suggest you find something a little more substantial.

Again, I'm going with researching law or investigating what agencies can help you. If something criminal has happened to you (again, general you) at least look at your options.

Something else I'm going to say. I'm not particularly sure we can have reasonable discussions about consent in kink if we keep dragging the section of the population who couldn't care a flying fig less about consent into the discussion. I'm not going to sit here and try to say that 'no meaning no' is going to stop anybody that is hellbent on sexually assaulting someone.

Not discussing the (actual) criminal element and going back to people participating in consensual kink, I really can't lead people by the nose and get them to ask themselves "do I have consent" or even "do I really have consent" when they are engaging with others. Personally, I think it would be awesome if I had the ability to do that, but I don't. While I'd encourage people to figure out how they determine whether they have consent or not, there's no way for me to make them do it.



Not that I agree with everything you say but I do appreciate your thoughtful answers.

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: “Yes, means yes and no, no”? - 12/15/2017 4:59:41 PM   
Milesnmiles


Posts: 1349
Joined: 12/28/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissKatya


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick




Damn...you beat me to it.

**insert drum shot**

I agree “Yes, means yes and no, no” is a dead horse and people should stop trying to get it to get up and dance. ;-)

(in reply to MissKatya)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: “Yes, means yes and no, no”? - 12/15/2017 5:40:34 PM   
Whiplashsmile4


Posts: 2298
Joined: 12/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissKatya


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick




Damn...you beat me to it.

**insert drum shot**


I want the beating a dead hooker one....

_____________________________

Жизнь ума ебет.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUzJI4Palq0

(in reply to MissKatya)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: “Yes, means yes and no, no”? - 12/16/2017 3:36:50 PM   
longwayhome


Posts: 1035
Joined: 1/9/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles

“Yes, means yes and no, no”, this along with consent have been offered as the solution to serious problems between men and women.

In a couple of threads I started, the platitude “Yes, means yes and no, no” quickly came up and the way it was used got me to wondering if this simple platitude was everything they thought it was.

As I began to question it, I realized that some felt that questioning it was not to be allowed and that my questioning it meant that I had some evil intent in doing so.

It seems some have set “Yes, means yes and no, no”, along with consent, up as a “Golden Idol” and if you don’t immediately kneel and do obeisance it, then you are a heretic and infidel and no attempt to reason with you should be made and you be cursed and insulted until you submit to this “Golden Idol”.

Well, before the cursing and insults begin let me tell you about this “Golden Idol”.

First, like all platitudes this one does have a nugget of truth but is of limited use and even then, needs to be used with intelligence.

Both ends of “Yes, means yes and no, no”, without serious qualifications, is all but useless.

In the case of “Yes means yes”, those under the influence of drugs and alcohol or those who are mentally incapable of making such decisions, yes just does not mean yes.

As for the “no means no” part, there are subs and slaves who do not want anything to do with “no means no” and in fact want all decisions to be taken away from them and in fact there are those who want to be raped not play acted but just taken and raped, that’s how they get off. Are we to tell them that they can’t have what they really want? They want no taken away from them.

You can rationalize that these things should be “understood” but if you're going to make this a “Golden Idol” shouldn’t you giving some guidelines on how it should be understood and used?

But those are just minor problems with this “Golden Idol” you’ve set up.

One of the major problems is that it just doesn’t do what you feel it does. Somehow you feel like behind this “Golden Idol”, that you are safe as gold in Fort Knox but this “Golden Idol” doesn’t provide you with thick walls and a moat.

“Yes, means yes and no, no”, along with consent are nothing more than a “Gentleman’s Agreement” and as long as both have agreed to it and both are “Gentleman”, then great you’re safe but all it takes is one broken “promise” and you are no longer safe.

Now for the biggest flaw in “Yes, means yes and no, no”, what if they agree with you? That “Yes, means yes and no, no” and then shows you what “Yes, means yes and no, no” really means and points out that you didn’t really specify who’s “Yes, means yes and no, no” and so it is their “Yes, means yes and no, no” and not yours.

So, what is the moral to the story, what is the point? If you’re putting all your eggs in one basket and hiding behind “Yes, means yes and no, no”, along with consent and expecting to be saved from the monsters out there in the real world, might I suggest you find something a little more substantial.




Just in case you think that you are educating us here, we all understand the premise that "yes" can be undermined by your ability to consent or by coercion, just as "no" can mean entirely the opposite in the context of a D/s scene or relationship.

That does not mean that reasonable, thoughtful people with a care for other people and themselves should not start from the position of seeking an enthusiastic "yes" from a person who has the capacity to consent in real time and translating any kind of "no" as an instruction to back off.

Most of us also understand perfectly well that BDSM does not provide a defence in law for any number of actions - assault is still assault in the eyes of the law, however supposedly consensual and someone going through with a sexual act after being told "no" would have a very hard time explaining consensual non-consent to a court room.

The point is that on one hand yes only means yes from a person capable at the time of consenting of giving informed consent, and no only means something else if both parties agree and are very clear about the risks and potential outcomes (RACK and all that).

That does not change the fact that "only yes means yes, and no always means no" is the best way to approach any situation where there has not been any agreement to the contrary. This covers all the vast majority of first encounters and dating, as well as anything in the workplace, even where sexual relations between staff are sanctioned or tolerated.

Finding exceptions only prove the rule. If you are a guy who likes to be able to do anything he wants at any time to a woman, you may well be successful in finding that sort of woman (although as with anything there are always limits). However if you treat people you meet for the first time in this way, you are probably going to end up in a courtroom and rightly so.

I'm never quite sure exactly where you are heading with any of these threads but you seem at least to be implying that men shouldn't always trust it when a woman says yes. If you are then that is probably true - men should be wary and be sure before proceeding. Likewise if you are suggesting that men shouldn't always take no for an answer, all I can say is that there are situations where that is acceptable, but these need to be properly understood and consented to by both parties. This is not news to most people on these Boards.

You have been told on more than one occasion on more than one thread by men whom like that sort of thing that they go out of their way to treat women with respect and only enter into that sort of scene or relationship when they are sure it is what somebody wants. These men seem to be very clear about the consent they require before embarking on their kind of D/s relationship with a woman, and what the limits are.

Some men may have a fantasy about randomly meeting women who resist, say no, fight back or run, but they win the day through sheer persistence, force of personality or actual physical force.

Great fantasy if you are both into it and explicitly agree to it. Abuse, harassment and rape if you aren't.

(in reply to Milesnmiles)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: “Yes, means yes and no, no”? - 12/16/2017 4:04:51 PM   
longwayhome


Posts: 1035
Joined: 1/9/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles

So, what is the moral to the story, what is the point? If you’re putting all your eggs in one basket and hiding behind “Yes, means yes and no, no”, along with consent and expecting to be saved from the monsters out there in the real world, might I suggest you find something a little more substantial.



The people who have quoted "yes means yes and no means no" have done so as a principle for good behaviour, not as some kind of suit of armour for people to wear to protect them from bad people.

Incidentally it is the basis of the law in most countries. We all know that the mere existence of a law does not mean that it will be adhered to but that is hardly the point.

A nuanced understanding of the principle that "yes means yes and no means no" (including a proper appreciation of what constitutes capacity) is certainly helpful to make people think about being very sure before they proceed so that they don't damage other human beings or put themselves at risk of such an accusation. For anyone who says "yes or no" understanding that they need to be clear and unequivocal about there communication is always helpful.

No-one has however suggested that an understanding of the principle or clear communication will deter determined attackers or "monsters".

I think you have just constructed another enormous strawman with which to accuse and deride your fellow posters.

What "something a little more substantial" do you suggest people find to "save them"? I'm intrigued to know. Without that you have merely picked holes in what you suppose to be other people's positions while offering nothing of substance yourself.

(in reply to Milesnmiles)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: “Yes, means yes and no, no”? - 12/16/2017 6:19:02 PM   
ThatDizzyChick


Posts: 5490
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles


quote:

ORIGINAL: MissKatya


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick




Damn...you beat me to it.

**insert drum shot**

I agree “Yes, means yes and no, no” is a dead horse and people should stop trying to get it to get up and dance. ;-)

Look Capt. God-Botherer, just because you are confused doesn't mean anybody else is

_____________________________

Not your average bimbo.

(in reply to Milesnmiles)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: “Yes, means yes and no, no”? - 12/16/2017 6:53:10 PM   
WinsomeDefiance


Posts: 6719
Joined: 8/7/2007
Status: offline
Miles, I can sum this all up for you.

IF you have to ask, then the answer is no.

For example:

"Is (insert pronoun) really not interested in me, or is (insert pronoun) being coy?"
"I know the individual is a minor, but they really like me; so is it ok to molest them?"
"Ok so they have hard limits, but they consented to be tied up and they can't 'technologically say no' to their hard limits being violated so is it ok to do so?"
"I know the workplace policy is no fraternization between subordinates, but she smiled at me and wears a tight skirt. She obviously wants me even though I've asked her out a few times already. Should I keep pestering her?"
"I like it when I can push my weight around and they know they can't say no or I'd blacklist them sooo of course they are consenting in a round about way, right?"

Knowing something is wrong, but talking yourself into doing it anyway is called rationalization.
Not even knowing the basic humanitarian rules is either being socially inept or a predator.

Yes Is yes, no IS no - any and most exceptions are either rationalization or predatory.

C(onsensual)N(on)C(onsent) begins with a communication of consent.

Again, if one has to ask; the answer is no.



(in reply to ThatDizzyChick)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: “Yes, means yes and no, no”? - 12/16/2017 7:08:41 PM   
WinsomeDefiance


Posts: 6719
Joined: 8/7/2007
Status: offline
Regarding the risk of predators. There are no sure fire ways of protecting oneself from predators. You can follow all of the BDSM rules of engagement and still find yourself in harms way.

Predators ,are predators because consent means nothing to them or because violating consent is their purpose.

If this isn't obvious, and rationalization comes into play in any way - consider that you might be a predator.

If yes, then go straight to a precinct and have yourself arrested or committed.

If no, then consider seeing someone who can teach you social cues so that you don't inadvertently violate consent.

Otherwise this is probably a no brainer.

(in reply to WinsomeDefiance)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: “Yes, means yes and no, no”? - 12/16/2017 7:25:50 PM   
longwayhome


Posts: 1035
Joined: 1/9/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick


quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles


quote:

ORIGINAL: MissKatya


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick




Damn...you beat me to it.

**insert drum shot**

I agree “Yes, means yes and no, no” is a dead horse and people should stop trying to get it to get up and dance. ;-)

Look Capt. God-Botherer, just because you are confused doesn't mean anybody else is


This, a thousand times.

It's just not that difficult for the rest of us.

(in reply to ThatDizzyChick)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: “Yes, means yes and no, no”? - 12/16/2017 8:29:33 PM   
Shandirra


Posts: 196
Joined: 11/28/2007
From: NYC
Status: offline
~FR~



_____________________________

Life shouldn't be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly shouting..."Wow! What a ride!

(in reply to longwayhome)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: “Yes, means yes and no, no”? - 12/16/2017 10:01:12 PM   
LTE


Posts: 461
Joined: 1/17/2017
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Milesnmiles


quote:

ORIGINAL: MissKatya


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick




Damn...you beat me to it.

**insert drum shot**

I agree “Yes, means yes and no, no” is a dead horse and people should stop trying to get it to get up and dance. ;-)


Only in the forums. In face to face contacts between those who meet here and in other lifestyle venues it is not the case. In the real world the old saying "fortune favors the bold" brings us success with women.

(in reply to Milesnmiles)
Profile   Post #: 20
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