RE: "No Tie = No Service"

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RE: "No Tie = No Service" - 12/24/2004 10:13:40 PM

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Whipenrod
It is obvious in Your words that he stated that He associates suit and tie with = work.
He dident desire his meeting with you to be business associated hence the casual release
of the * work* style.

It is plain that You are use to a Gentlemen in Suits in general and proper attire worn correctly
when in the public eye. You seem to desire to keep up appearances which while in his company
You dident feel You were doing. Make him aware of what You expect and give a second chance for him to get use to the idea that business and pleasure suits means proper attire including a tie to You and are not just for work. JMO

(in reply to EStrict)

RE: "No Tie = No Service" - 12/27/2004 6:37:07 PM

GoddessDustyGold

Posts: 2822
Joined: 4/11/2004
From: Arizona
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quote:

ORIGINAL: warlock4821

I have for the last few days elected to refrain from responding to any of the statements made by all contributing members in regards to this topic with the hope of gleaning some valuable information as to how people view this topic and how they make judgements based on the perspective of each respondant. I think each participant's comments were well stated and very enlightening. I want to thank all of you for your input and insight, whether you agreed with my position or not, which I view as irrelevant to the conversation.

I initially chose to respond to this discussion not to clear myself of any mis-step on my part, but to state my perspective of the aspects of the situation and given the circumstances, get a better understanding of the evaluation process, or lack thereof, and the acceptable interaction between the domme and the submissive. There was a noticeable gap in the responses due to the problems encountered on this site and I especially want to thank Topcat, MaitresseEden, and MistressJadeMTL for the comprehensive responses and in keeping the topic current considering the down time.

To add to my comments regarding the meeting in question, I personally hold no malice to any ones comments on either side of the issue nor the actions of the Mistress in question. I regard all the actions and responses as a having a very positive impact on my understanding of the dominate influence and hope others gain insight in reading the interaction of those envolved in the discussion.

The facts of the issue remain as I see them as follows:

1- During the first meeting or interview of a sub with a Mistress, when no codes or standards have been outlined or discussed, is it wrong for a sub to conduct himself within the parameters of acceptable social venues or standards, or is the sub evaluated based on not meeting standards in the mind of the domme only?

2- Can a sub fail an interview for only following the normal standards of acceptable social conduct and interaction before getting to know a domme and her pre-requisites?

3- Is a sub always wrong no matter what in the eyes of his domme and all other dommes because a domme says so?

I would appreciate further insights.

Thank you,

Warlock

warlock,
First of all I would like to say that in My scaning of all this, I did not realize that you were the subject of the discussion. If I had, I would have addressed your post also, as I only glanced at part of it, and thought you were referring to another experience in a different set of circumstances with a different Mistress. I thought your choice of dress was very elegant and appropriate. So I do apologize for making a wrong assumption in a quick and partial read of your post.
At times, when arrangements are being made for a first meeting, the sub will ask about My preferences for his dress. In that case, I will tell him, and W/we can determine if he has something appropriate in his closet. I have met subs in formal Tuxedos, and in jeans and a polo shirt.
In answer to your questions and keeping in mind that all Dommes have different standards and codes of acceptable behavior:

1. No, I would not have considered you wrong and from what I understand, your behavior would have been perfectly acceptable to Me.

2. No, you would not have failed with Me.

3. We often speak of things in a somewhat general manner on these boards, or we should, since everyone has different standards and expectations. So even when something pretty specific is brought up, you will still see different answers and attitudes, as priorities are different with each person. I, Myself, looked at this as a possible future problem, if the attitude is "no tie", because it is more important for the sub to be comfortable. So I might do a test or two, to see how important I am, and how much the sub has the capability of pleasing Me. We all agree to disagree alot here, and the discussions are very helpful in giving new perspectives. Often, something that seems terribly important will turn out to be be not so important , after all, or we learn new ways to look at things.
I will say this: Unless you are into complete 24/7 browbeating and humiliation, if you are with a Domme who always makes you feel like you are wrong, no matter what, best find a new Domme! However, if you choose a Domme, and She chooses you, and She says you are wrong, by Her standards, in some specific matter or the other...then, you are wrong. It really doesn't matter what other Dommes think, because you are still wrong according to Her standards. It may be perfectly okay for Me, but if it is not for Her...well, you get the drift!
Choose wisely, and best of luck to you!

_____________________________

Dusty
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
B Franklin
Don't blame Me ~ I didn't vote for either of them
The Hidden Kingdom

(in reply to warlock4821)

RE: "No Tie = No Service" - 12/31/2004 4:52:13 AM

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Moleculor, perfection is not attainable, however politeness is.

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.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to Moleculor)

RE: "No Tie = No Service" - 12/31/2004 5:46:02 AM

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Joined: 5/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel

Moleculor, perfection is not attainable, however politeness is.

For a significant portion of my life I was the most polite person you could ever meet. This ended up with me being the most ignored person you could ever meet as well. So I changed.

Besides, I -was- being polite. I just tossed in some sarcasm along the way to make things more interesting.

(in reply to darkinshadows)

RE: "No Tie = No Service" - 12/31/2004 6:02:38 AM

Posts: 205
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Utah
Status: offline

I think....

If during a first meet the only thing you found in error with him was a lack of a tie.....give me his number to pass along to some of my Domme friends. LOL

If everything else went well.....having him dress for you is easy to fix.

My 2 cents ;)

Ms Sandi

_____________________________

"The Masochist desires to experience stronger sensations, but desires that it should be inflicted with Love. The Sadist desires to inflict stronger sensations, but desires that it should be felt as Love" Havelock Ellis The Project Gutenberg

(in reply to Moleculor)

RE: "No Tie = No Service" - 12/31/2004 7:54:23 AM

Posts: 203
Joined: 3/23/2004
Status: offline

I know this isn't really going to be a popular response (or receive a popular response), but this is one of the things that has bothered me over the last decade in the way the bdsm society has completely changed. I see this thread as a great example of how many dominant women today are so focused on finding fault to substantiate eliminating the relationship at any cost. Ten years ago, I never got that impression. I get that impression all the time, from actual meetings with people, to munches, to personal advertisements on collarme.com.

I understand a lot of the reasons behind the desire to eliminate a lot of the excess noise (being that of a lot of submissives), but I think in the process there has been an all too easy tendency to eliminate the music as well as the noise. Instead of thinking, "okay, this person needs work, but is otherwise quite excellent", the responses tend to be "let me dump this moron because I'm sure the next guy is going to be a lot better than this one" (even though that was said about the last ten potentials).

I got dumped once (about seven years ago) because my former mistress of many years wanted to remain my friend (instead of my enemy). My potential dominant partner didn't like the fact that she was still there in the picture, even though my former mistress and I were no longer on relationship terms, nor would we ever be again. I was treated as if I had done something seriously wrong because I chose to remain friends with a former partner rather than make her my mortal enemy or just completely ignore her in the future.

I thought this was an isolated incident. It was not. The next woman to come after that was so specific in what she wanted, and I really wasn't all that into her to begin with to want to change to what she wanted me to be in this very specific relationship. But that didn't stop her from pursuing me, convinced that I could fit into this ideal she had for me to be, which was completely opposite of anything I actually was. When she finally gave up, she put me through hell in my own community, talking about how I was a fake submissive and making all sorts of insults that others in the community will listen to because they come from a hot potential domme rather than from simple little me.

I left San Francisco after that last one because I was so tired of going through this process while I still hadn't managed to get over losing my longtime mistress. The more I attempt to find anyone today, the more I find myself being pulled away from the bdsm society because of the way that it has completely changed to this completely negative attitude towards submissives.

I am so sick and tired of being responded to with "one-liners" that are surface-level at best. That's an obvious offshoot of the whole sickened paradigm.

_____________________________

Give a man a fish, he eats for a day...
...teach a man to fish, he steals your fishing hole and then charges you for the fish.

(in reply to UtahGoddess)

RE: "No Tie = No Service" - 1/1/2005 9:41:26 AM

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From: UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moleculor

quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel

Moleculor, perfection is not attainable, however politeness is.

For a significant portion of my life I was the most polite person you could ever meet. This ended up with me being the most ignored person you could ever meet as well. So I changed.

Besides, I -was- being polite. I just tossed in some sarcasm along the way to make things more interesting.

I truely feel saddened that society makes people feel they must be pushy, sarcastic or not bother with politeness to try and gain attention, even negative attention. That kind of expectation I (personally) could not feel comfortable submitting to. Blessings and peace.

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to Moleculor)

RE: "No Tie = No Service" - 1/1/2005 11:19:16 AM

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Joined: 2/25/2004
Status: offline

It was expected from the Restaurant that he dress appropriately, why would it make any difference that she expect the same?

I would have left and told him that if I had taken the time to dress properly, then he should have as well. I would have told him he was disrespectful towards me and to others in the restaurant.

I would have humiliated him to the point that he did I. It would be totally unexceptable in my books. What that shows to me is he was only thinking of himself and not ME what so ever...WRONG!

MC

(in reply to EStrict)

RE: "No Tie = No Service" - 1/1/2005 11:40:49 AM

Posts: 2156
Joined: 4/3/2004
From: Naples Island- Long Beach CA - Southern California
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressCheeky

It was expected from the Restaurant that he dress appropriately, why would it make any difference that she expect the same?

I would have left and told him that if I had taken the time to dress properly, then he should have as well. I would have told him he was disrespectful towards me and to others in the restaurant.

I would have humiliated him to the point that he did I. It would be totally unexceptable in my books. What that shows to me is he was only thinking of himself and not ME what so ever...WRONG!

MC

You need to read the entire thread. The sub was dressed appropriately for where she had decided to eat. After she had failed to make sure her first choice was available, they ended up at his first choice; the expensive place. He was within the dress code for either place. Next time, read it all instead of one or two bits before you make your decision about responding

_____________________________

Beach Mystress
*Do not threaten the weak. Intimidate the strong. ~ Stevenson*
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/beachmystress/

(in reply to MistressCheeky)

RE: "No Tie = No Service" - 1/1/2005 11:48:12 AM

stef

Posts: 10215
Joined: 1/26/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressCheeky

I would have humiliated him to the point that he did I. It would be totally unexceptable in my books. What that shows to me is he was only thinking of himself and not ME what so ever...WRONG!

*boggle*

If not wearing his tie would have humiliated you so, you've got more issues than TV Guide.

~stef

_____________________________

Welcome to PoliticSpace! If you came here expecting meaningful BDSM discussions, boy are you in the wrong place.

"Hypocrisy has consequences"

(in reply to MistressCheeky)

RE: "No Tie = No Service" - 1/1/2005 3:13:43 PM

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Joined: 2/25/2004
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I have issues? the only issue I have is when someone doesn't respect me by dressing properly. If you go to an expensive restaurant and your wearing a suit, then you dress with a TIE, he made an excuse for not doing so.

My opinion is just that, if you read my post properly in the first place I said "ME". If you go for the tee-shirt and baseball cap type, then thats your choice, it's not what I look for.

She posted asking opinions, I gave mine, so get off my back.

I know how to read, thank you very much BeachMystress, perhaps you should go back and have a look at what she said.

MC

(in reply to stef)

RE: "No Tie = No Service" - 1/1/2005 3:54:00 PM

stef

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Joined: 1/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressCheeky

I have issues? the only issue I have is when someone doesn't respect me by dressing properly. If you go to an expensive restaurant and your wearing a suit, then you dress with a TIE, he made an excuse for not doing so.

So where is all this humiliation coming from? I'm just not seeing it. Does anyone else here see it?

quote:

My opinion is just that, if you read my post properly in the first place I said "ME". If you go for the tee-shirt and baseball cap type, then thats your choice, it's not what I look for.

I'm well aware that you're just stating your opinion. I wouldn't presume to think you were speaking for anyone other than yourself. At any rate, wearing a suit without a tie and wearing a T-shirt and ball cap are hardly synonymous. Can we please try to keep the drama to a minimum? There's already so much here.

quote:

She posted asking opinions, I gave mine, so get off my back.

We're all giving our opinions, that's what makes this such a useful forum. One person's opinion carries no more weight than anyone elses.

~stef

_____________________________

Welcome to PoliticSpace! If you came here expecting meaningful BDSM discussions, boy are you in the wrong place.

"Hypocrisy has consequences"

(in reply to MistressCheeky)

RE: "No Tie = No Service" - 1/1/2005 6:10:34 PM

Posts: 189
Joined: 5/23/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel

I truely feel saddened that society makes people feel they must be pushy, sarcastic or not bother with politeness to try and gain attention, even negative attention. That kind of expectation I (personally) could not feel comfortable submitting to. Blessings and peace.

*shrug* That's society for you. Yes, I'm a baa-ing sheep that conforms to the accepted standard of men needing to be assholes in order to be interesting. Sue me. 'course, this behaviour tends to go in cycles. You're seeing me on one of my more sarcastic months.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sfgrrl

*boggle*

If not wearing his tie would have humiliated you so, you've got more issues than TV Guide.

Damn, I've gotta remember that one.

(in reply to darkinshadows)

RE: "No Tie = No Service" - 1/1/2005 7:21:17 PM

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Joined: 3/31/2004
From: Sacramento, California
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sfgrrl
*boggle*

If not wearing his tie would have humiliated you so, you've got more issues than TV Guide.

~stef

LOL!

I'm with you stef.

I also agree with what sarbonn said - I see a lot of this disposable mindset - dress is something that can be worked on and changed - it would not be something I'd base a decision of continuing to get to kow someone on - unless it was very extreme, like say wearing his undershorts only. *That* would indicate to me they weren't that stable and had some social skill issues, far beyond what I'd want to bother trying to improve.

As for formal versus casual, well, I guess I just view life in such a way that clothes aren't the breaker for me. I simply wouldn't view that as even being an issue, and I certainly wouldn't even be to the point that I'd overanalyze the possible unspoken symbolism of it to the point that I'd dismiss a human being on that alone.

I'm not saying that to do so is wrong, just that for me, I'd view the whole thing as an anthill (not even a molehill) and certainly not a mountain.

If I found a bunch of other things that I enjoyed about the person, I myself would not have the slightest issue with it.

I would see nothing wrong with it, especially after seeing the submissive's recount of the evening, and the logic that was behind their thinking and choices.

JMO, FWIIW.

~ShadeDiva

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(in reply to stef)

RE: "No Tie = No Service" - 1/1/2005 10:16:16 PM

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quote:

I also agree with what sarbonn said - I see a lot of this disposable mindset - dress is something that can be worked on and changed - it would not be something I'd base a decision of continuing to get to kow someone on - unless it was very extreme, like say wearing his undershorts only. *That* would indicate to me they weren't that stable and had some social skill issues, far beyond what I'd want to bother trying to improve.

This reminds me of when I first started going to munches. I loved this nighttime social we had out here. Long time ago. I don't remember their names.
You know how you feel when you first go to a munch? Will they be freaks? Normal? Will I fit in? Anyway, there was a Master? and following him Master?s sub.
These people had on matching overalls...that had tears in them. Halfway up to their knee's. Patchwork flannel shirts on underneath. The farm type hats. Each social they came dressed the same way. It was such a site to be seen. I really don't think they were making a statement.
Dress does matter sometimes.

(in reply to ShadeDiva)

RE: "No Tie = No Service" - 1/2/2005 12:31:08 AM

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You have not interpreted what was written correctly. Go back and read it again.

(in reply to darkinshadows)

RE: "No Tie = No Service" - 1/2/2005 8:26:35 AM

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A Happy and Rewarding New Year to all.

In the spirit of the New Year, I thought it appropriate to add a new perspective to the thread discussion. In reading the "opinions"
of all that have posted their view of the topic it appears that a recurring bone of contention is the ability to communicate. Which is
quite ironic if one reads the thread.

An issue was originally posted and later the counterpositioning statement was entered by me, describing the events leading up to
the supposed "infraction" of dress code that was totally and only in the mind of the Domme. not in the mind of the Establishment
that it occurred in or any of the patrons present, not by the Sub in question. Only in the mind of the Domme.

What is most interesting is how so many opinions were entered in this forum without reading the details of the events.
Talk about communication!

It appears more interesting to me that given the status of a Mistress or Domme, in judging the conduct of a sub, or anyone else for
that matter, and for that Domme to administer whatever disciplinary action is to be taken, the facts leading up to the decision would
be of paramount importance. Now perhaps I may be wrong here, but it is my opinion that most of the Dommes within this forum,
made without benefit of reading any of the facts.

Which brings me back to my original question regarding this topic, Was the decision of the Domme or any Domme for that matter to
find fault with something that evening to reinforce her position of superiority, and the lack of a tie a trumped up afterthought to justify
her displeasure?

Do Dommes normally have a made-up-mind of the outcome of sessions and relationships before the actual event has a chance to play
out? Is the outcome more important that experiencing the interaction?

Your thoughts would be appreciated.

(in reply to Whipenrod)

RE: "No Tie = No Service" - 1/2/2005 8:44:44 AM

Posts: 549
Status: offline

By the tone of your post, you already have an answer in mind. . .but you are trolling for those who will agree with you. It is obvious by some of your statements.

quote:

describing the events leading up to
the supposed "infraction" of dress code that was totally and only in the mind of the Domme.

You obviously want us all to think that there was no infraction. . hence the quotes around the word infraction.

quote:

in judging the conduct of a sub, or anyone else for
that matter, and for that Domme to administer whatever disciplinary action is to be taken, the facts leading up to the decision would
be of paramount importance.

If you want to decide what is important or not. . .I guess you are the dom in the situation.
It was important enough for you to defer to her as to an appropriate location to dine. . .but when it came to attire, you decided you'd be your own man and wear what you wanted. So I guess you just wanted to pick and choose how you wanted to defer. If there was any question about the matter, take it upon yourself to ask before hand. Then there wouldn't be any confusion.

quote:

Was the decision of the Domme or any Domme for that matter to
find fault with something that evening to reinforce her position of superiority, and the lack of a tie a trumped up afterthought to justify
her displeasure?

You'd probably get the most accurate answer if you asked her. Anything put here by anyone else but her would be mere conjecture.

quote:

Do Dommes normally have a made-up-mind of the outcome of sessions and relationships before the actual event has a chance to play
out? Is the outcome more important that experiencing the interaction?

This is the kind of question that is something like. . .
Do men usually want their dick sucked?
Do black people usually like friend chicken and watermelon?
Do Japanese people usually not know how to drive?
Are you seriously expecting an all encompassing answer in regard to what "dommes" (in general) expect?

Some women viewing this thread will have the opinion that your behavior was acceptable and some will think that it wasn't. None of them are right or wrong. It's about personal preference.

J

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(in reply to warlock4821)

RE: "No Tie = No Service" - 1/2/2005 10:35:10 AM

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Joined: 11/29/2004
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quote:

Which brings me back to my original question regarding this topic, Was the decision of the Domme or any Domme for that matter to
find fault with something that evening to reinforce her position of superiority, and the lack of a tie a trumped up afterthought to justify
her displeasure?

Do Dommes normally have a made-up-mind of the outcome of sessions and relationships before the actual event has a chance to play
out? Is the outcome more important that experiencing the interaction?

I am going to agree with Jules, here. Clarifying to further your understanding is one thing. We've gone way past clarifications at this point, however. It's easy to see that there were divergent opinions given on whether or not 'sub's' attire was or was not appropriate.

I did not find fault with your choice of clothing. I wouldn't give you the time of day if you pulled this nonsense with me.

(in reply to warlock4821)

RE: "No Tie = No Service" - 1/2/2005 1:00:14 PM

Posts: 2156
Joined: 4/3/2004
From: Naples Island- Long Beach CA - Southern California
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressCheeky

I know how to read, thank you very much BeachMystress, perhaps you should go back and have a look at what she said.

MC

Unlike you, I've read the entire thing. Unlike you, I have all the facts presented. Her side of the story is NOT the only one here. We've also heard from the sub in question. That is the problem with responding to a thread without bothering to read all of it. *gentle smile*

_____________________________

Beach Mystress
*Do not threaten the weak. Intimidate the strong. ~ Stevenson*
http://beachmystress.jigsy.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/beachmystress/

(in reply to MistressCheeky)

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