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RE: "No Tie = No Service" - 3/6/2006 3:54:51 PM

Beatmehrdr

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Well, reading through this ancient, so dead-it-needs-carbon-dating thread is that whatever her *real* reasons for dumping him, the stated reason was lack of respectable neckwear.

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RE: "No Tie = No Service" - 3/14/2006 12:26:42 PM

incognitoinmass

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My dad always told me that you never get a second chance to make a first impression. There was nothing inherently wrong with the way the gentleman presented himself--very few establishments require ties anymore.

Usually those that extend the invitation set the dress code. However, if his unwillingness to wear a tie in this situation is a deal breaker for you than that's your call.

Seeing as how his behavior could hardly be characterized as inappropriate, though, this seems like the flimsiest of reasons to avoid another encounter. In the future, if you have concerns about his choice of wardrobe, you can ask/request/order that he wear something you consider proper.

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RE: "No Tie = No Service" - 3/14/2006 3:20:59 PM

UtopianRanger

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quote:

He took you to a restaurant, instead of some dumpy diner, or to a cheap coffee shop and you have the audacity to sound downright arrogant because he wore no tie, and didnt apologize for it

Yup... gotta laugh sometimes...some very pretentious folks out there. I love blazers and sport coats, but I'll take a pass on the whole tie thing...

I used to bust up laughing at my father{He was an attorney}.He used to go into his office and work every day dressed in ''Fila'' sweats ….just to mess with some of the other professionals nearby. The funny thing was... that while I know most of them looked down on him wearing those Fila sweats all the time, none of them ever noticed the 35k Patek Philip he was wearing. LMFAO!!!

The whole tie vs. no tie thing is way overblown -- The finest and most popular eating establishments in Portland are all ''dress as you will'' , with no paticular code.

- The Ranger

< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 3/14/2006 3:32:38 PM >

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RE: "No Tie = No Service" - 3/14/2006 3:25:41 PM

HouseofBear

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I do not state a preference for a first meeting, as they are not collared to me at that time. However, if they show up looking like a slob, their chances of getting a second meeting are next to nil. If they show up neatly attired and well groomed then it does make a better first impresson.

Lady Ursa

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RE: "No Tie = No Service" - 3/14/2006 4:23:43 PM

AAkasha

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quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger

quote:

He took you to a restaurant, instead of some dumpy diner, or to a cheap coffee shop and you have the audacity to sound downright arrogant because he wore no tie, and didnt apologize for it

Yup... gotta laugh sometimes...some very pretentious folks out there. I love blazers and sport coats, but I'll take a pass on the whole tie thing...

I used to bust up laughing at my father{He was an attorney}.He used to go into his office and work every day dressed in ''Fila'' sweats ….just to mess with some of the other professionals nearby. The funny thing was... that while I know most of them looked down on him wearing those Fila sweats all the time, none of them ever noticed the 35k Patek Philip he was wearing. LMFAO!!!

The whole tie vs. no tie thing is way overblown -- The finest and most popular eating establishments in Portland are all ''dress as you will'' , with no paticular code.

- The Ranger

Some people can "get away with it."

A mere description of "no tie with top button undone and undershirt showing" is not the full story, really. How did it compare to the way others were dressed? How was his overall hygeine -- was it also sloppy and unkept? Did he look rushed, unclean, sloppy? Was his body language equally sloppy and showing little regard for the atmosphere?

Some women prefer men who dress and behave with *class*. It has nothing to do with a tie, or not a tie. It has to do with taking pride in appearance and not communicating a sense of laziness, disregard or dismissal of appropriateness.

You can't judge "appropriateness" without seeing the whole picture. The way someone carries themselves and how they show respect or lack of respect for the venue can be a sign of unpreparedness, of disregard, of lack of social sense or the absolute completely opposite -- the ability to be incredibly casual despite social expectations and carry it off with absolutely class. This, however, is a rare trait, and not everyone can pull it off.

Akasha

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RE: "No Tie = No Service" - 3/14/2006 5:36:30 PM

MistressLorelei

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She was so offended by his lack of neckwear, yet she wasn't offended enough to dine with, and eat the expensive food paid for by the offender.

Anyone can wear a tie... class can't be worn by anyone. Usually people who are confident enough to feel they do not have to overdress to impress, are worth looking into. Sure, he should want to impress, but unless it was clear that she had a tie fetish... perhaps he thought he was.

Personally, I don't see the point in ties (though a male in a tux does do something for Me), though I realize society finds them necessary sometimes... was this one of those times? Probably not, but who really knows. Hopefully she incorporated tie wearing into her list of protocols. Perhaps he would have learned to read her mind 'after' the first date.

Is this ancient thread dead yet??

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RE: "No Tie = No Service" - 3/14/2006 8:13:00 PM

UtopianRanger

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quote:

You can't judge "appropriateness" without seeing the whole picture. The way someone carries themselves and how they show respect or lack of respect for the venue can be a sign of unpreparedness, of disregard, of lack of social sense or the absolute completely opposite -- the ability to be incredibly casual despite social expectations and carry it off with absolutely class. This, however, is a rare trait, and not everyone can pull it off.

Amen. The man makes the man, not tie! ;}

I've seen guys dressed in hi quality formal-wear looken' like Rip Van Winkle just woke up from long nap from underneath the tree.

Again, to go on record : I'll take the James Gandolfini-Bergen-Hunt social club-loafer-look over the pretentious pseudo-west wing-fake-aligator-shoe-Martin-Sheen look, any day of the week.

By the way…. Does anyone know who it was that said ''a fat roll of c-notes always trumps the gold card''?

- The Ranger

< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 3/14/2006 8:14:41 PM >

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RE: "No Tie = No Service" - 3/14/2006 8:44:35 PM

Evanesce

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quote:

The whole tie vs. no tie thing is way overblown -- The finest and most popular eating establishments in Portland are all ''dress as you will'' , with no paticular code.

Master and I think it's very sad that people don't "dress" for dinner any more, and were just discussing this very thing over the weekend. We went out Saturday night with another couple to the nicest restaurant in town - the men in sport coats, slacks and dress shirts, the women in casual evening dresses - and we were GROSSLY overdressed! The last time Master and I had been in there, we fit right in in our casually dressy evening wear. This time, practically everyone in the place was in jeans.

I LIKE being able to go to dinner where everyone is a bit more formally dressed. In fact, there are times even at home where we'll dress for dinner - especially during the holidays.

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RE: "No Tie = No Service" - 3/14/2006 10:14:00 PM

cloudboy

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I'm just curious about one thing. How can you be an "Expert" in receiving a massage?

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RE: "No Tie = No Service" - 3/15/2006 3:26:32 PM

SimplyV

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Evanesce

quote:

The whole tie vs. no tie thing is way overblown -- The finest and most popular eating establishments in Portland are all ''dress as you will'' , with no paticular code.

Master and I think it's very sad that people don't "dress" for dinner any more, and were just discussing this very thing over the weekend. We went out Saturday night with another couple to the nicest restaurant in town - the men in sport coats, slacks and dress shirts, the women in casual evening dresses - and we were GROSSLY overdressed! The last time Master and I had been in there, we fit right in in our casually dressy evening wear. This time, practically everyone in the place was in jeans.

I LIKE being able to go to dinner where everyone is a bit more formally dressed. In fact, there are times even at home where we'll dress for dinner - especially during the holidays.

Like lots of things in society.. things are lost as society evolves. Every society has had this happen, and yes its a shame to lose somethings.

I think there should be certain places where you dress up. I have a hard time going to places like Applebees/TGI Fridays if I'm in sweats or the grungy equivalent, and yet I see people there in that state of dress. But that is for the establishment to decide what is right for it.

As for the "he didn't wear a tie".. I think thats one of the things that is becoming lost in our society. Tuxes will probably always require a tie, but anyone who has looked at suit cataloges probably has noticed the more "hip" way to wear them is with a dress-casual shirt under it, or a collar-less dress shirt (can't put a tie on that), or with the shirt open at the neck giving a glimpse of the undershirt. Actually, I would have to give the guy kudos for wearing an undershirt under his dress shirt. I've seen way too many that don't.

As for the "he wore a tie all day" thing.. Geez.. have some compassion.. For some guys.. thats the equivalent of making me wear pantyhose all day. I might do it for a job (no actually I probably wouldn't) but to do it all day then have to keep them on all night as well? Ain't gunna happen. For some people ... a tie is restraining. If you wear it .. you have to sit right, talk right, behave right.. its like being on societies leash or for some.. wearing a tie signifies that they're "at work". (You know much like wearing a collar you go into BDSM mindset, and taking off that collar you go back to vanilla world) Some people have to remove that tie to get out of work-mode.

I think there was more to this Dominants issues with the sub than just the tie thing. She sounded angry at him, as if he didn't live up to her expectations and thats his fault. To me.. sounds like a communication problem. Either she communicated her expectations, and he didn't live up to it. Or he lead her to believe he was something that he's not. Or she's just plain evil and holding a list of expectations to "grade" her suitors on but refuses to let them know what those are (which is usually a pretty good sign that she's not ready to be looking for anyone IMO).

V

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RE: "No Tie = No Service" - 3/16/2006 12:42:08 AM

UtopianRanger

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quote:

As for the "he wore a tie all day" thing.. Geez.. have some compassion.. For some guys.. thats the equivalent of making me wear pantyhose all day. I might do it for a job (no actually I probably wouldn't) but to do it all day then have to keep them on all night as well? Ain't gunna happen. For some people ... a tie is restraining.

You nailed it there. I find ties very restrictive and uncomfortable. Like I said... A blazer with an open collared shirt is classy and ''happening'' these days.

And up here in the PCNW, it's all about the ''mismatch'' - A retro velvet sports coat, a handmade Italian collared shirt, an otomix tank top underneath, some faded-ass jeans with a few frays, some sweet calf-skin penny loafers, and a black ''fossil'' belt, with a light mist of Tommy - Damn... you're good to go. LMAO!

- The Ranger

< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 3/16/2006 12:43:15 AM >

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RE: "No Tie = No Service" - 3/16/2006 6:38:21 AM

MysticalPhoenix

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quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger

You nailed it there. I find ties very restrictive and uncomfortable. Like I said... A blazer with an open collared shirt is classy and ''happening'' these days.

And up here in the PCNW, it's all about the ''mismatch'' - A retro velvet sports coat, a handmade Italian collared shirt, an otomix tank top underneath, some faded-ass jeans with a few frays, some sweet calf-skin penny loafers, and a black ''fossil'' belt, with a light mist of Tommy - Damn... you're good to go. LMAO!

- The Ranger

Although some people might like the restrictiveness of a tie or pantyhose, the real blame for the sartorial issues is the Dominant herself. All she had to do was issue clear instructions to the person meeting her as to how he was to be dressed. That's worked very well for me in the past.

Phoenix

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RE: "No Tie = No Service" - 3/16/2006 7:35:54 AM

AAkasha

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MysticalPhoenix

quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger

You nailed it there. I find ties very restrictive and uncomfortable. Like I said... A blazer with an open collared shirt is classy and ''happening'' these days.

And up here in the PCNW, it's all about the ''mismatch'' - A retro velvet sports coat, a handmade Italian collared shirt, an otomix tank top underneath, some faded-ass jeans with a few frays, some sweet calf-skin penny loafers, and a black ''fossil'' belt, with a light mist of Tommy - Damn... you're good to go. LMAO!

- The Ranger

Although some people might like the restrictiveness of a tie or pantyhose, the real blame for the sartorial issues is the Dominant herself. All she had to do was issue clear instructions to the person meeting her as to how he was to be dressed. That's worked very well for me in the past.

Phoenix

There's definately a benefit in specifically telling a sub how to dress. However, you can tell a lot about a person by letting them make their own decisions. For one, you can tell their common sense and ability to make good decisions. If I had a sub with no real sense of appropriate dress and I was too rushed to tell him exactly what to wear to an important dinner function, I would be mortified if he showed up looking sloppy.

I want classiness to be something I don't need to dictate or explain. More importantly, I want a sub who feels more comfortable in that skin than in "slob" skin.

Akasha

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RE: "No Tie = No Service" - 3/18/2006 11:15:46 AM

DelightMachine

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This post just amazes me for how bitchy it is. And how unfair. Compare what she says to what the OP previously said:

quote:

She was so offended by his lack of neckwear, yet she wasn't offended enough to dine with, and eat the expensive food paid for by the offender.

Anyone can wear a tie... class can't be worn by anyone. Usually people who are confident enough to feel they do not have to overdress to impress, are worth looking into. Sure, he should want to impress, but unless it was clear that she had a tie fetish... perhaps he thought he was.

Now here's what the OP said in a follow-up post (No. 45 in this thread) which can be found here:

http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=52807

quote:

No, I didn't order him to put on a tie--I mentioned it, and saw how he reacted. Not satisfactory, as he brushed off the mention. So I took a note. Like the 'final save' in a sports game, he would have had to overcome the deficiency so I waited to see. Perhaps there was still a spark of 'compatability' that would help me overlook the problem.
I usually analyze my impressions after the interview. But the spark never came.

I'd call that class on the OP's part. She saw a sign (lack of tie) that the person applying to be her submissive was not taking the situation seriously enough and she did NOT end the encounter right there but looked for more signs -- a totally reasonable thing to do, giving him further chances to impress.

Contrast this to MistressLorelei who feels free to attack the character of the OP and either ignores one of the OP's posts in this thread or doesn't bother to look up whether or not the OP had additional posts.

Who really has class here and who doesn't?

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RE: "No Tie = No Service" - 3/18/2006 11:42:22 AM

DelightMachine

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quote:

You nailed it there. I find ties very restrictive and uncomfortable. Like I said... A blazer with an open collared shirt is classy and ''happening'' these days.

And up here in the PCNW, it's all about the ''mismatch'' - A retro velvet sports coat, a handmade Italian collared shirt, an otomix tank top underneath, some faded-ass jeans with a few frays, some sweet calf-skin penny loafers, and a black ''fossil'' belt, with a light mist of Tommy - Damn... you're good to go. LMAO!

Would you wear that to a job interview? First meeting with a Domme at a fancy restaurant is very, very close to that. If you want to impress, you don't take chances.

I'm amazed at the idea from so many of the people contributing to this thread (since it was raised from the dead) that there's something offensive in expecting a man to wear a tie -- in assuming he should wear a tie to a fancy restaurant. And it wasn't as if he'd made some kind of sophisticated sartorial judgment here, just that he was tired of wearing one at work (meaning he had to impress people he worked with, but didn't think he had to work that hard to impress the Domme he was meeting for the first time).

Our whole mainstream culture loses something when people get offended with the idea that they should dress more formally on some important occasions. Really -- fancy restaurant + first time meeting with Domme = dress well and don't take chances being underdressed. No brainer.

Down in the meatpacking district in Manhattan several years ago, I saw a BDSM club and was curious about what it was like. But I was stopped at the door. I was wearing white sneakers and they had a firm dress code -- either boots or at least dark shoes. No, I wasn't offended either. Later I went back, and it was impressive how everyone was dressed.

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RE: "No Tie = No Service" - 3/18/2006 12:59:46 PM

MistressLorelei

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DelightMachine

This post just amazes me for how bitchy it is. And how unfair. Compare what she says to what the OP previously said:

quote:

She was so offended by his lack of neckwear, yet she wasn't offended enough to dine with, and eat the expensive food paid for by the offender.

Anyone can wear a tie... class can't be worn by anyone. Usually people who are confident enough to feel they do not have to overdress to impress, are worth looking into. Sure, he should want to impress, but unless it was clear that she had a tie fetish... perhaps he thought he was.

Now here's what the OP said in a follow-up post (No. 45 in this thread) which can be found here:

http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=52807

quote:

No, I didn't order him to put on a tie--I mentioned it, and saw how he reacted. Not satisfactory, as he brushed off the mention. So I took a note. Like the 'final save' in a sports game, he would have had to overcome the deficiency so I waited to see. Perhaps there was still a spark of 'compatability' that would help me overlook the problem.
I usually analyze my impressions after the interview. But the spark never came.

I'd call that class on the OP's part. She saw a sign (lack of tie) that the person applying to be her submissive was not taking the situation seriously enough and she did NOT end the encounter right there but looked for more signs -- a totally reasonable thing to do, giving him further chances to impress.

Contrast this to MistressLorelei who feels free to attack the character of the OP and either ignores one of the OP's posts in this thread or doesn't bother to look up whether or not the OP had additional posts.

Who really has class here and who doesn't?

Well... despite the finding of others in similar opinion, if you wish to make Me the Poster Bitch for the thread, i'm fine with that. If the slave had other chances to redeem himself for his tie faux paux, then the tie wasn't really what equalled no service in the end.

A tie seems like such an insignifcant and unfair thing to judge common sense upon, or to place such importance on, without making prior mention of it. The need for a tie has become 'relative', as ties have become nearly obsolete. Though with your comments, I am assuming you have worn a tie to all of your 'job interviews' with potential Dommes, right?

I don't feel I need to prove the level of My class to you, however, if I found that a potential slave had violated My dress code, I would have stated I had a dress code ahead of time (apparently it wasn't a problem with the restaurant police), or asked him to simply fix the problem, rather than letting it go and waiting to complain about it here.

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RE: "No Tie = No Service" - 3/18/2006 1:41:52 PM

AAkasha

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DelightMachine

quote:

You nailed it there. I find ties very restrictive and uncomfortable. Like I said... A blazer with an open collared shirt is classy and ''happening'' these days.

And up here in the PCNW, it's all about the ''mismatch'' - A retro velvet sports coat, a handmade Italian collared shirt, an otomix tank top underneath, some faded-ass jeans with a few frays, some sweet calf-skin penny loafers, and a black ''fossil'' belt, with a light mist of Tommy - Damn... you're good to go. LMAO!

Would you wear that to a job interview? First meeting with a Domme at a fancy restaurant is very, very close to that. If you want to impress, you don't take chances.

I'm amazed at the idea from so many of the people contributing to this thread (since it was raised from the dead) that there's something offensive in expecting a man to wear a tie -- in assuming he should wear a tie to a fancy restaurant. And it wasn't as if he'd made some kind of sophisticated sartorial judgment here, just that he was tired of wearing one at work (meaning he had to impress people he worked with, but didn't think he had to work that hard to impress the Domme he was meeting for the first time).

Our whole mainstream culture loses something when people get offended with the idea that they should dress more formally on some important occasions. Really -- fancy restaurant + first time meeting with Domme = dress well and don't take chances being underdressed. No brainer.

Down in the meatpacking district in Manhattan several years ago, I saw a BDSM club and was curious about what it was like. But I was stopped at the door. I was wearing white sneakers and they had a firm dress code -- either boots or at least dark shoes. No, I wasn't offended either. Later I went back, and it was impressive how everyone was dressed.

It seems to me that people try to make excuses for being a slob. They tend to lump the "accept me, I am kinky, so accept me as I am" mentality right in with "accept me for being a slob and dressing any way I please; and if I offend people around me, that's their problem."

The lack of hygeine and attire sense is what turned me off to munches and bdsm get togethers in general. I'm fine with the "accept me as I am" mentality, but I was disappointed with the overall lack of care for cleanliness, haircuts, hygeine and manners. Whenever people start treading toward any thread about "appearance" there is a lot of resistance and backlash from those that want to defend their physical attributes - whether they be too fat, too skinny, too short or too hairy. Whatever -- people can be classy and beautiful in any shape or size, but it starts with having care for appearance, and at least dressing in appropriate clothing and being clean.

I don't feel that people need to apologize for expecting someone to dress or appear in a manner that would not be embarrasing should I introduce them to a boss, to my mother or to my best friend. If they can't come up with a "look" that at least satisfies that criteria, I don't think a second date is in order.

Akasha

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RE: "No Tie = No Service" - 3/18/2006 1:47:35 PM

DelightMachine

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quote:

Though with your comments, I am assuming you have worn a tie to all of your 'job interviews' with potential Dommes, right?

I've never met a new Domme at a fancy restaurant. If I did, I'd wear the tie and jacket.

Yes, others had a similar point of view, but you became the "Poster Bitch" because you were more insulting. Maybe you just weren't thinking about how mean your comments were, but that doesn't make them any less bitchy.

Signs of disrespect can be rather small, but all cultures have them. I thnk a tie is part of dressing well, most of the time. The sub in this case clearly looked sloppy, it seems to me. We can disagree about that. Impugning other people's character is something to rebuke, not just disagree with.

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RE: "No Tie = No Service" - 3/18/2006 2:55:49 PM

MistressLorelei

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I am not sure how I am "mean" for addressing a post made by the OP as she encouraged us to do... yet your directly saying I have no class is okay. However, you are as free to your opinions, as I am to Mine. Arguing is not My thing, so I will let My opinions stand, and agree to disagree with you... and I will do so without returning your insults.

Cheers.

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RE: "No Tie = No Service" - 3/18/2006 4:54:55 PM

TexasMaam

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Like you, I would have been exceedingly disappointed at the open shirt and visible undershirt for a first meeting, expecially in such an environs.

Like you, I'd hate to pass up what seemed to be an otherwise pleasing initial introduction.

I'd go to a second meeting and follow the same suggestion MistressFire gave:

quote:

MistressFire70
If him dressing in a specific way is important to you (and it seems that it is), tell him. Give him a specific "uniform" to wear the next time you go out and see 1) how well he obeys it and 2) if he complains about it all evening. If he is lax in obeying or whines all night, you have your answer. If he does both well, then you know he is just a little clueless and needs guidance.

I very nearly tossed bobbi aside for whining or complaining. There have been times when I was dismayed at his attire or lack of attention to detail.

I've given him instruction which he's been delighted to follow, and I've given him clothes that he balked at when he first opened the boxes. He has delighted Me with wearing them and in doing so has practically preened himself while basking in the warmth of My praise and approval.

Overall, the effort at guiding him toward what pleases Me has been worth it these past four years.

I certainly don't think of that as being 'bought'.

Give the boy another shot. But I'd let him know in NO uncertain terms how I felt about his oversight that first evening.

I let bobbi know how I felt about his attire when he came to meet me, and I stipulated that I'd like to always see him in a tie on such occasions.

He's not without his own quirky sense of defiant humor, though. We refer to Lucy and Charlie Brown a lot in jest. He always tells Me I'm like Lucy, yanking the football away, letting him 'whump' to the ground.

One day he showed up at My office in a suit and tie, every inch the corporate gentleman, except for the Peanuts tie he wore. It was Snoopy, kicking the proverbial football.....

; )

Texas Maam

(in reply to Whipenrod)

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Post #: 120