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RE: What has happened? - 9/17/2007 7:57:12 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		Gotta love when an old thread gets revived and people start snarking at posts made by people that will never even see them.

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Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: What has happened? - 9/17/2007 9:09:31 AM   
Celeste43


Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline 		Your profile claims you are 55. If you were involved in s&m 50 years ago, then obviously it wasn't as elegant as you imagined since forcing this upon one way too young to give informed consent doesn't match my definition of elegant and refined.

I grew up on one of the Fire Island gay communities. My mother played bridge with anyone in the community who played. As a result we were welcome in fully half the homes, many of whom were involved in power relationships. I can't say that elegance and refinement ever struck me as a term to apply to any of these people.

I recall a psychiatrist with huge problems who had a new master twice every season, a bottom with no power exchange who was a good friend of the family for 20some years to whom the term elegance and refinement also didn't apply. I remember people, of all different ages, backgrounds, jobs, financial levels etc. But I do not recall an overall sense of elegance, nor of crudeness. I just remember people in their infinite variety, some kind, some snobbish, some confused. Just like in the vanilla world back then and now.

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Profile   Post #: 122
RE: What has happened? - 9/17/2007 9:59:20 AM   
DarkDaddyZ


Posts: 805
Joined: 4/7/2006
Status: offline 		~fr~

These type threads do nothing but go all bad... so I say this: "The Good Old Days" are the days ahead of you, enjoy them If you want to learn about some of the older INVIDUALIZED traditions that may have made some communities, seek out those who have the experience.

Have a great start to the week!
DDZ


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(in reply to Celeste43)
Profile   Post #: 123
RE: What has happened? - 9/17/2007 10:29:58 AM   
dovie


Posts: 1211
Status: offline 		"~fr~

These type threads do nothing but go all bad... so I say this: "The Good Old Days" are the days ahead of you, enjoy them If you want to learn about some of the older INVIDUALIZED traditions that may have made some communities, seek out those who have the experience.

Have a great start to the week!
DDZ "

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"hear hear!!"

dream well,
dovie    (who forgot to quote first)


< Message edited by dovie -- 9/17/2007 10:33:04 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 124
RE: What has happened? - 9/17/2007 11:36:52 AM   
Missokyst


Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		I had to check to see how old you were.  I was picturing an old guy with no teeth until I saw you were around my age.  I am curious about the references to rituals and ettiquette of which you speak.  Do you mean the servant, employer, behavior of old?  Are you referring to secret societies where women serve their men in silence wearing nothing more than a leather collar?  Or are you talking about civility in general? 
Yes, society has changed.  People are more relaxed, class differences are largely money related.  Education has improved as has the opportunity to be exposed to other life/love styles.  In the coarse of change, things will fall by the wayside.  Other less appealling traits will be picked up, passed on, then discarded.  Every one of us was a "young whippersnapper" in some decade where old folk had to stop and wonder what is happening to modern society. 
The good thing about today is that people are not afraid to look for what they seek.  If they want formal training all it takes is a google search, a local community, and there they have it.
I myself do not believe there is adequate data on so called formal societies of bdsm.  The population was too small, the need for secrecy too great.  I wonder where all this data from the secret societies came from, beyond the old harlequin romance harem stories.  But then, I am perfectly ok with modern bdsm.  I do what I need to do, as do we all.
Kyst
quote:

ORIGINAL: MHOO314

To the elegance, refinement, class and rituals that SM once was 50 or so years ago? How did it get to the point of, blatant crudeness, vulgarity and disrespect for others?
 
Once there were rituals, long term training, etiquette----where did all that go? and how do we as a community begin to bring that dignity and elegance back?


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pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding ~Gibran, Kahlil

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(in reply to MHOO314)
Profile   Post #: 125
RE: What has happened? - 9/17/2007 11:43:26 AM   
LotusSong


Posts: 6334
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Domme Emeritus
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

you cannot force others to go back to the "Good Ol Days".


While this is very true, you can make people yearn for them by example.  I know "my way" isn't down and dirty enough for some, but it is one of peace and grace.  I'll stick to my "old ways".  It avoids future embarassment.

< Message edited by LotusSong -- 9/17/2007 11:44:47 AM >

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RE: What has happened? - 9/17/2007 2:08:56 PM   
MadRabbit


Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterLDesade

Interesting , maybe you should book in and learn , Traditional Values might help your impeded by i live in the U.S.A attitude and all begins and ends in the U.S.A . Fortunately it is in the states for you .
Mistress Savana will I'm sure turn you from a Boi to a Man if you accept her and her colleges training methodology and listen , learn which by your One Thousand , Two Hundred and Eighty Four Posts in here which the vast majority are purely Ego Driven by a posting junkie who has never had any time on a " Working Dungeon Floor " and at the tender age of 23 would  not have had the experience to pull the top of a custard let alone himself .
You have not been chosen  nor deemed by a Mistress nor Master to worthy of such " Training " , in Traditional Values .
The " Real World " my young Boi is very different to this  "Cyber One " step outside in the fresh air and go to this conference and just maybe even if you buy it get a clue .
                                      Regards
                                                    MasterLDeSade


Great... now  I am getting stalked by a delusional madman who beleives a 1000 year old BDSM society really did exist.

Please crawl back into whatever dark corner of the Internet that spawned you and your completely asasine fantasies

< Message edited by MadRabbit -- 9/17/2007 2:16:01 PM >

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RE: What has happened? - 9/17/2007 2:25:15 PM   
MadRabbit


Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Celeste43

I grew up on one of the Fire Island gay communities. My mother played bridge with anyone in the community who played. As a result we were welcome in fully half the homes, many of whom were involved in power relationships. I can't say that elegance and refinement ever struck me as a term to apply to any of these people.



I recently attended a lecture and slideshow on Leather History on the Mineshaft, the famous Leather bar in New York City.

Believe me, elegance and refinement are the last two descriptors for those pictures. It was about dirt, sweat, the manly smell of men and leather, rough sex, piss, cum, anal fisting, beer and filth.

Everyone I have had the pleasure of meeting in real time who was around back in the "good old days" pretty much sheds this perspective regarding the Leather sub culture.





_____________________________

Advice for New Dominants
The Unpolitically Correct Lifestyle Definitions

Obama is NOT the Messiah! He's just a VERY NAUGHTY BOY

(in reply to Celeste43)
Profile   Post #: 128
RE: What has happened? - 9/17/2007 2:26:55 PM   
mmb1


Posts: 304
Joined: 8/3/2007
Status: offline 		LOL

(in reply to MadRabbit)
Profile   Post #: 129
RE: What has happened? - 9/18/2007 2:32:54 AM   
MistressMercia


Posts: 44
Joined: 4/14/2007
Status: offline 		 I couldnt agree more , well said, well written and still maintained the honor of silence as one should. Yes they still exsits , but it is to the chosen few to attend........as you know .So motte it be..Mistress Mercia

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Profile   Post #: 130
RE: What has happened? - 9/18/2007 5:42:23 AM   
chellekitty


Posts: 3923
Joined: 3/27/2005
Status: offline 		ok....so i didn't read this the first time it passed through, didn't read it now...i just wanted to say...

where have all the flowers gone, long time passing
where have all the flowers gone, long time ago
where have all the flowers gone, little girls picked them everyone
when will they ever learn, oh when will they, ever learn

(and yes, i do know that song by memory...my moms a hippy, born a decade too late)


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RE: What has happened? - 9/18/2007 7:26:29 AM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline 		Fast Reply

A person can choose to be civil and mannerly, despite what others around them do.  I was raised to be a gentleman and I do my best to continue on in that manner.  Does it mean that I cannot get down and dirty?  No.  Does that mean that I prefer the days when men beat women in an abusive fashion or fathers diddled their daughters with impunity or women were paid less than men for the same work?  No...but I can and do prefer the manners insisted upon during that time.  There is nothing that says you cannot be open and bring out what is wrong in society and correct it but to do so, you must set manners and civility aside.  Rather ironic that one of the favorite sayings of certain segments of society is "Can't we all just get along?" when much of that same segment of society insists that the only way to get along is to accept THEIR crude manners and caustic behavior.  Sorry...doesn't work that way in my world. 

(in reply to chellekitty)
Profile   Post #: 132
RE: What has happened? - 9/18/2007 12:02:07 PM   
Celeste43


Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

quote:

ORIGINAL: Celeste43

I grew up on one of the Fire Island gay communities. My mother played bridge with anyone in the community who played. As a result we were welcome in fully half the homes, many of whom were involved in power relationships. I can't say that elegance and refinement ever struck me as a term to apply to any of these people.



I recently attended a lecture and slideshow on Leather History on the Mineshaft, the famous Leather bar in New York City.

Believe me, elegance and refinement are the last two descriptors for those pictures. It was about dirt, sweat, the manly smell of men and leather, rough sex, piss, cum, anal fisting, beer and filth.

Everyone I have had the pleasure of meeting in real time who was around back in the "good old days" pretty much sheds this perspective regarding the Leather sub culture.



You've left out the huge component of anonymous sex. Men met at night in a hollow just off the sand path between the two gay communities and it was assumed that whoever you groped in the dark was amenable to whatever. Dirty, drunken, druggy, sweaty and sandy were the watchwords, certainly not elegant and refined.

(in reply to MadRabbit)
Profile   Post #: 133
RE: What has happened? - 9/18/2007 5:16:09 PM   
teamnoir


Posts: 226
Joined: 4/5/2005
From: San Francisco Bay Area California
Status: offline 		As far as I can tell, the rituals about which you speak are largely a myth. And there very much are rituals today, but you may not recognize them as such.

One of the most fabulous things about the scene is that it's largely dominated by rugged individuals and anarchists. There is no central or controlling authority and we tend to like it that way. People who attempt to set themselves up as central or controlling authorities tend to get torn down fairly quickly.

In my opinion, that's all excellent. Those rituals you're thinking of all require a central authority and a turning a blind eye to any possible abuses of power. If you're looking for that in a sexual setting, I'd encourage you to look into the Morman church. They're full of that sort of ritual, central authority, and the abuses of power that go along with them.

(in reply to MHOO314)
Profile   Post #: 134
RE: What has happened? - 9/26/2007 5:49:19 AM   
MasterLDesade


Posts: 67
Joined: 2/22/2007
Status: offline 		Ron , why dont you take your opinion over to somewhere re-Lollipop Littles an Age Play Party in Upcoming Events , herein is a topic a reverent and self boasting upstanding B.D.S.M citizen such as yourself i would have thought would have taken the time to address such as the seriousness of this issue and the underlying social issue to all whom play in this lifestyle are  relevant , important . But your time is spent criticizing , postulating , point scoring but no teeth or testicles to go for issues that effect the most vulnerable section of our community and the involvement of said activities in B.D.S.M , and the rotten apple effect which has pervaded our society will with your lack of retort and examining of such subjects effect all whom play by association and acceptance ,whether you agree , disagree , without intervention measures, prevention , rehabilitation and a good understanding of subject matter etc  in place amonst the B.D.S.M  community lead by so called leaders such as yourself at the vanguard helping practically , yet you brag of your community involvement on your profile proudly stating so and yet your silence on this subject up until now indeed show's the  true depth of your  character  . Ron take that Penis Nose of yours and put into the above mentioned thread   where you are more needed as a leader in the community of b.d.s.m and your valued and highly held opinions will see Solomon style openness to the subject forum . I am a Pro-Master and as such pop in and out of the forums when my time allows , my answers are delivered at such times , and you think you will force me out of Collarme Ron.....L.M.F.A.O do you think in your small insipid mind that your own ego is more important than what i have to say and will continue to say freely .
                                 Regards
                                                MasterLDeSade

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Profile   Post #: 135
RE: What has happened? - 9/26/2007 4:00:27 PM   
WildeDanny


Posts: 27
Joined: 9/3/2007
Status: offline 		There is definately a parallel in what you said about the BDSM community and society in general. We have become a crass, rude society. One main reason I see for this is the medium known as television, especially situation comedies. Over the latter half of the twentieth century, comedy turned from the mere telling of a joke to primarily jokes at the embarrassing expense of others. Don Rickles is an excellant example of this. I am sure you can think of many others. Another cause would be the music industry. The world of music has gone from providing young people of opposite genders something to dance to while they got to know each other and has moved on to expressions of violent opinion. These mediums are, to My mind, the majority of the reason that society has degenerated as it has. The general mindset has been convinced that the way to appear intelligent and popular is to be insulting, demanding, and generally rude. This mindset has permeated into all aspects of the human experience, including BDSM.
So far as a solution to the problem, even the experts appear stumped. They contradict each other very rudely as they struggle to contrive ways to make the rest of us behave ourselves. So, for lack of a less rude suggestion, you're just going to have to deal with it and try to exist as you please within your own little world, just as the rest of us must.

(in reply to MHOO314)
Profile   Post #: 136
RE: What has happened? - 9/26/2007 4:06:54 PM   
camille65


Posts: 5746
Joined: 7/11/2007
From: Austin Texas
Status: offline 		As far as this site goes I have seen several that take pride in being rude or even mean. They actually pride themselves on it which is something I do not understand.
It is widespread and pervasive, an attitude of not caring. I see it in the way for example people dressed at the airport. There was a time when folks would dress nicely for travel and now its sweat pants and tube tops. A sort of sloppy insular view of the world.
'Take me as I am, and too bad if it pisses anyone off. It's my right'.


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Profile   Post #: 137
RE: What has happened? - 9/26/2007 4:14:07 PM   
YourhandMyAss


Posts: 5516
Joined: 6/25/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		hell yes lol, if I am going to be on a plane for how many ever hours it takes to go where I've gotta go I am not going to put my best wear on just to get it all wrinkled and maybe dirty while I am on the plane. I'm going in something comfy, usualy one of my over sized dresses and sandles.

quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65

I see it in the way for example people dressed at the airport. There was a time when folks would dress nicely for travel and now its sweat pants and tube tops. A sort of sloppy insular view of the world.
'Take me as I am, and too bad if it pisses anyone off. It's my right'.


(in reply to camille65)
Profile   Post #: 138
RE: What has happened? - 9/26/2007 4:17:04 PM   
Prinsexx


Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MHOO314

To the elegance, refinement, class and rituals that SM once was 50 or so years ago?


Hindsight has 50=50 xision that's all. And it wasn't wasn't. as above............it was stuck, repressed, shame and bllame ridden and ritualistic to the point of exclusivity, two-faced and spoke with forked tongues and mostly went on in the proverbial closet.
Fuck the past, live for now and plan for the future............

(in reply to MHOO314)
Profile   Post #: 139
RE: What has happened? - 9/26/2007 5:50:41 PM   
LadyHugs


Posts: 2299
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Dear Ladies and Gentlemen;
 
Interesting how old threads come alive again however, the topic and reflections never seem 'to old.'
 
As far as manners, etiquette, rituals, ceremonies and respectful exchanges go; each person cannot control another's behavior--just their own.  In keeping with this understanding; I do my best to be good to others even though they act like a pile of fresh, easily spreading pile of manure and or speak like a pile of and or easily spreading flow of loose manure from their mouth. 
 
My parents were keen on good manners, as their parents had been.  I knew of no other manner of behavior.
 
Rituals can be much the same as habits and or routine.  Re-wording rituals as to a routine and or a practiced habit; people suddenly see that they have rituals and never recognized them as such. 
 
That said, one person can make a difference anywhere and or anytime.  For those who see that being polite and respectful is not a sign of weakness --but, seriously; it is a strength as well as controlling self; those who resort to petit behavior and or words as to defame and or debase anothers are the ones who lack it.
 
Just some thoughts.
 
Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs

(in reply to CreativeDominant)
Profile   Post #: 140
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