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RE: People should not have to work for a living. - 8/22/2006 9:44:23 AM

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

I certainly agree with you julia that a lot of dmage to the world has been done in the name of increasing shareholder profits. Some good has come of it - capitalism isn't all bad. But lots of damage, too. No doubt.

- Susan

controlled capialism isn't all bad. I have decided to concentrate on globalism and economic anthropology in my graduate work. I have read so much about free market system, fiat currency, how capital flows and, trade agreements between nations. I did some research about NAFTA for a project. Did you know that no environmental groups were at the table and no one representing organized or unorganized labor either. Guess who was there? Corporate America was in on the discussions and helped write NAFTA. Why? Because the they have more rights than people.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to SusanofO)

RE: People should not have to work for a living. - 8/22/2006 9:44:44 AM

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Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
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Tigresse, $27 per hour isn't a lot of money these days.

(in reply to SusanofO)

RE: People should not have to work for a living. - 8/22/2006 9:45:30 AM

Posts: 5094
Joined: 11/15/2005
From: Toronto
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I think that if people made educated choices, they would be better off.

"I don't support Wal-Mart because of their treatment of staff."
"I don't support Exxon because their profits are too high."
"I don't support Coors because they are not environmentally friendly."
Etc....

If people actually thought about what they were buying, and who's pockets they are lining, the world would be a better place. But people are sheep.

So I say this - as long as the flock is healthy, willing to give wool, and willing to make lambs to keep it going, why not be the shepherd? Their cooperation is in their own hands, but they know too well that if they stop cooperating, they won't get Armani grass to eat.

And why do we buy cheap? So we can afford more luxuries. When we make more money, we become like our overlords.

The problem is that, despite hating the rich, we want to be like them. We buy a cheap, 60 inch plasma screen made in China, because the guys in the rap videos have them and they look cool, instead of a nice, American made 20 inch non-plasma. We want more, more, more, not realizing that by spending a bit more on what we really want, we are better off in the long run.

Yours,

benji

_____________________________

Prevent global warming. Stop burning patchouli.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

RE: People should not have to work for a living. - 8/22/2006 9:58:49 AM

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Joined: 11/7/2005
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quote:

Benji: I come from the opposite end of the spectrum - my family is the employer of a few thousand people.

I KNEW it. Not only are you a dog, you are a running capitalist dog!

As for Me, I really hate the system and I love "stickin' it to the Man" when I can. (Looks around at his law office, his computers, his secretaries, his Prius in the lot (a sop to vanity, and I HATE oil companies)....

Hey wait....I AM the Man. Sheeeesh.

E.

--We have met the enemy, and he is us. -- Walt Kelley

_____________________________

"When you wake up, Pooh," said Piglet, "what's the first thing you say?"
"What's for breakfast? What do you say, Piglet?"
"I say, I wonder what's going to happen exciting today?"
Pooh nodded thoughtfully.
"It's the same thing," he said.

(in reply to gooddogbenji)

RE: People should not have to work for a living. - 8/22/2006 10:02:31 AM

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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Tigresse, $27 per hour isn't a lot of money these days.

I made that, and sometimes more, waiting tables, but I didn't make the benefits

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to popeye1250)

RE: People should not have to work for a living. - 8/22/2006 10:10:59 AM

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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: gooddogbenji

The problem is that, despite hating the rich, we want to be like them.
Yours,

benji

I do not hate the rich. I value nice quality things. I have had my own business. I am seeing someone that was raised in an econically affluent at least upper middle class, bordering on wealthy, family. I think that part of my problem is that my generation is the first generation of Americans to not share "The American Dream", most of us will not surpass our parents in upward mobility economically. We will not do as well as they did for the most part.

The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer. The Middle Class is shrinking. I think it is no coincidence that the voice of organized labor has been decreasing as this phenomena is occuring. Stating this is not hateful. Stating that those with power have been loathe to give it up is not hateful. Stating that those with real wealth control laws and elections is not hateful. Stating that the deck is stacked against common people is not hateful. Stating that from my perspective the poor and the working poor are often blamed for every social ill when the cause is on high is not hateful. I think the poor and the working poor are treated hatefully.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to gooddogbenji)

RE: People should not have to work for a living. - 8/22/2006 10:11:09 AM

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Benji, I think you're right about that.
I haven't been inside a Walmart in about 4-5 years now ever since they had that scandal about hiring illegal aliens.
I shop at Costco because I was reading an article one time online that said they are very good to their employees!
I talked to one employee in the Costco store here and she told me that they pay their employees very well and they have great benefits.
The article stated that they made an "average" of $18 per hour.
I don't know if that includes benefits or not.
I just feel that if I'm going to spend my money somewhere I'd rather do it at a business that takes good care of it's employees.
Julia, you really earned your money if you were a waitress.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

RE: People should not have to work for a living. - 8/22/2006 10:16:44 AM

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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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Lots of people work hard in this world popeye...smiles. I noted a long time ago that people who worked harder than me often made less too... I have cleaned hotel rooms, washed dishes, done landscaping... many other things. My mom worked and I was an orphan who needed money. I have worked since I was 14.

Benji.. as to the other parts of your post, we should boycott companies that trouble us, and I do!

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to popeye1250)

RE: People should not have to work for a living. - 8/22/2006 10:21:19 AM

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From: Santiago, Chile
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Yes they should.

Unions Vs Corperations - Sadly, it's not much better of a fight then the Democrats verses the Republicans. The polarization of issues, in order to achieve balance isn't great in either practice or theory, but as Winston Churchill said about Democracy, "It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried." The fact is that without capitalism, there's no incentive to work (or work harder, or work smarter, or just plain do things better.) As said before, Wall-mart is the representation of the Ultimate Mediocrity. The lowest prices possible, for the lowest acceptable quality possible. Who needs fine crystal wine glasses, when you can get cheap plastic ones made in China for 99 cents?

And, as well stated before, Unions simply provide a service, for a fee. In theory, it's supposed to protect the workers, in practice it results in many workers losing their jobs. I'm not sure I understand why people are so angry at corporations for wanting to earn profits? That's what they were established to do in the first place, and any corporation that doesn't increase profits goes out of business - and loses the money of the people who invested it. People easily accuse corporations as being the 'bad guys' and the people who invest as 'money hungry' - after all, the class war between the rich and the poor has always existed. It's easy to hate people with more money, but I don't see anyone - rich or poor - giving money away because they're ashamed to have too much. More importantly, the reality that real money doesn't come from luck, sports ability, or lottery tickets is vastly ignored. Bill Gates, richest man in the world, wasn't born rich, didn't come from old money or by exploiting south asian toy companies. He got that way by having a good idea, buying the tools to put it in use, and continually reinvesting what he earned into the company he was building. Anyone... anyone can do that. Hating the people who do won't make you any closer to being rich.

Stephan

http://www.collarchat.com/m_548947/mpage_3/tm.htm#549375

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http://www.vv3b.com/

"There is always some madness in love, but there is always some reason in madness." - F. Nietzsche

(in reply to juliaoceania)

RE: People should not have to work for a living. - 8/22/2006 10:21:21 AM

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From: Toronto
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Julia,

The "despite hating the rich" was a bit of a hyperbole; I don't think we hate them.

I do think, however, that there is a lot of resentment to their perceived greed (Perceived because profits are not born of greed, but of concerns for the future. Huge payouts are greed)

I also think that the wealth accumulated by past generations of Americans and Canadians is slowly starting to fizzle out, as people are becoming decadent. We EXPECT the government to pay for things, it is our right. It is our right for this and that and everything. In the past, people worked their asses off for their rights (and I don't mean in wars) They worked for what they had, now we expect the Chinese to do this work.

Why shouldn't they get the money for the work? Give them 20 years, and they'll be moving factories back to North America because it's cheaper.

Yours,

benji

_____________________________

Prevent global warming. Stop burning patchouli.

(in reply to popeye1250)

RE: People should not have to work for a living. - 8/22/2006 10:28:15 AM

Posts: 841
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Santiago, Chile
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benji,

seems we've always relied on the Chinese to do the hard work for us. The railroads didn't just spring up across our country by magic....

But I agree with you, for the most part. You take out what you put in. When everyone is demanding more out of the cookie jar than they're baking, soon there's no cookies for anyone.

Stephan

_____________________________

http://www.vv3b.com/

"There is always some madness in love, but there is always some reason in madness." - F. Nietzsche

(in reply to gooddogbenji)

RE: People should not have to work for a living. - 8/22/2006 10:32:29 AM

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Joined: 3/13/2006
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I'm all for people working their asses off if they are stupid enough. Hard work doesn't make you rich but understanding how the capitalist system works does. I don't see any reason behind all this discussion about work, its pointless. You have to concern yourself with making what money you have work for you, rather than worrying about how to keep your job. There are plenty of jobs out there should you get desperate but the point is not to need one.

(in reply to gooddogbenji)

RE: People should not have to work for a living. - 8/22/2006 10:39:59 AM

Posts: 463
Joined: 6/10/2006
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oh god, you folks have sure been busy, got alot of work done around here.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BrutalAntipathy
This was the Lake Geneva Convention, written by Frank Zappa and Mick Jagger in the Stones mobil recording studio. After 6 dime bags of Swiss weed, a quart of raspberry schnapps, and a magic mushroom pizza, they declared that they weren't going to perform any more if they didn't want to. And thus was born the Lake Geneva Convention. It was used as a coaster for a margarita glass shortly thereafter, and as rolling paper the next afternoon.

lol. so it was. magic mush pizza, yumm... uhh.. hey, did you just tilt that pink wall over there ?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Slipstreme
(Which told me they consider money more mportant than my happiness.)

you are probably mistaken about your parents. they just think nobody can be happy with a transexual in need of hormones. this is so because they don't see how they could be, and more importantly because they don't see how they could impress any friends with something like that.

that's the funny thing about parents, they are indeed just as dumbskully shortsighted folks as the children think, but absolutely never in the way children think.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO
It really isn't funny at all, and we know that (and I am an Amnesty International donor) . It's just that there isn't much we can do about it, since Americans, as a whole, will probably never willingly give up all of their reallly, really low prices goods.

sadly, my dear, the joke is on the americans. you see, the chinese, poor and enslaved as they are, still manage to keep a positive trade balance. something the us hasn't managed in 30 years. in fact, the us as a whole is like the average us college kid, raking up debt by the tens of thousands each year to pay for drugs beer and whores in "college", you know, gender studies and ecology, whereas the chinese are just like the chinese, doing physics math and engineering for a few k's a year, then making their own house, own space program and own bionic whore. luckily that last project still has a couple decades to completion, which at least ensures a stable income for roughly half the generation currently in school. after that tho, the plug gets pulled.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

RE: People should not have to work for a living. - 8/22/2006 10:40:20 AM

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Joined: 11/15/2005
From: Toronto
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

I'm all for people working their asses off if they are stupid enough. Hard work doesn't make you rich but understanding how the capitalist system works does. I don't see any reason behind all this discussion about work, its pointless. You have to concern yourself with making what money you have work for you, rather than worrying about how to keep your job. There are plenty of jobs out there should you get desperate but the point is not to need one.

Good example of someone eating my cookies.

Yours,

benji

_____________________________

Prevent global warming. Stop burning patchouli.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

RE: People should not have to work for a living. - 8/22/2006 10:44:24 AM

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Voltare

Yes they should.

Unions Vs Corperations - Sadly, it's not much better of a fight then the Democrats verses the Republicans. The polarization of issues, in order to achieve balance isn't great in either practice or theory, but as Winston Churchill said about Democracy, "It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried." The fact is that without capitalism, there's no incentive to work (or work harder, or work smarter, or just plain do things better.)

You are right, people never invented anything before capitalism and democracy.

quote:

And, as well stated before, Unions simply provide a service, for a fee.
My father's union and my Daddy's union were democractic anf they used representatives from their ranks. Sure they are reimbursed for their work with the union, but they return to the rank and file when they are not doing that anymore.

quote:

In theory, it's supposed to protect the workers, in practice it results in many workers losing their jobs.
As I pointed out, non-unionized workers are also losing jobs to outsourcing.

quote:

I'm not sure I understand why people are so angry at corporations for wanting to earn profits? That's what they were established to do in the first place, and any corporation that doesn't increase profits goes out of business - and loses the money of the people who invested it. People easily accuse corporations as being the 'bad guys' and the people who invest as 'money hungry' - after all, the class war between the rich and the poor has always existed. It's easy to hate people with more money, but I don't see anyone - rich or poor - giving money away because they're ashamed to have too much.
Corporations have more of a voice in this "democracy" than individuals do, but they are absolved from an individual responsibility when they harm others. They also form government policy, which is antithetical for a democracy seeing that we do not vote for them.

quote:

More importantly, the reality that real money doesn't come from luck, sports ability, or lottery tickets is vastly ignored. Bill Gates, richest man in the world, wasn't born rich, didn't come from old money or by exploiting south asian toy companies. He got that way by having a good idea, buying the tools to put it in use, and continually reinvesting what he earned into the company he was building. Anyone... anyone can do that. Hating the people who do won't make you any closer to being rich.
Tell that to the kid working in china that is illiterate and will be a slave to a company that sells cheap consumer shit to WalMart. They do not have any opportunity, and yes we are connected economically to such things. What you are saying is it is ok for American based corporations to go multi national and exploit child labor overseas, but that has no implications here at home, it is justified because of profits... if that IS your view (I did not mean to make a strawman if I am wrong), well it is not a very ethical or moral one, and sorry, I just do not agree with you.

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 8/22/2006 10:47:08 AM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Voltare)

RE: People should not have to work for a living. - 8/22/2006 11:01:37 AM

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quote:

More importantly, the reality that real money doesn't come from luck, sports ability, or lottery tickets is vastly ignored. Bill Gates, richest man in the world, wasn't born rich, didn't come from old money or by exploiting south asian toy companies.

this proof of idiocy is instant grounds for being ignored in any serious discussion.

1. bill gates the 3rd was born rich. in fact his parents sit on money 3 generations old

2. bill gates made his money EXACTLY by exploiting, if not stealing form, a naive community. you are welcome to read up on the history of MS DOS intellectual property and inform yourself.

either way i'm not going to be able to read you again.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

RE: People should not have to work for a living. - 8/22/2006 11:01:52 AM

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From: New Hampshire
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Julia, "NAFTA" was and is a COLOSUL MISSTAKE!
Where are all the "High-Paying Jobs" that President Clinton promised us that would be created if "NAFTA" passed?
And he also said it would cut down on Illegal Aliens, we can see just how good that's working, can't we?
And even the Japanese car makers are "backdooring" us through "NAFTA", I didn't realize that JAPAN was part of "North America!"
I'll vote for anyone who'll totally scrap "NAFTA!"

(in reply to juliaoceania)

RE: People should not have to work for a living. - 8/22/2006 11:14:20 AM

Posts: 5094
Joined: 11/15/2005
From: Toronto
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: Voltare

Yes they should.

Unions Vs Corperations - Sadly, it's not much better of a fight then the Democrats verses the Republicans. The polarization of issues, in order to achieve balance isn't great in either practice or theory, but as Winston Churchill said about Democracy, "It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried." The fact is that without capitalism, there's no incentive to work (or work harder, or work smarter, or just plain do things better.)

You are right, people never invented anything before capitalism and democracy.

Actually, they didn't really - capitalism has been around since the first cavemen traded pteradactyl wing for leg.

Granted, democracy came about much later, and a while after many many inventions, but no one is really praising it either.

quote:

And, as well stated before, Unions simply provide a service, for a fee.
My father's union and my Daddy's union were democractic anf they used representatives from their ranks. Sure they are reimbursed for their work with the union, but they return to the rank and file when they are not doing that anymore.

I think almost every union uses union reps. These still are chosen based on the perceived benefits they will bring, in exchange for the fee. Similarily, our government is elected, and returns to normal citizenry when they come out of office, but that does not stop them from doing things which are not necessarily in the citizen's interests.

quote:

In theory, it's supposed to protect the workers, in practice it results in many workers losing their jobs.
As I pointed out, non-unionized workers are also losing jobs to outsourcing.

Yep. Here's why - Company A is unionized, and pay $40/hour.
Company B is not unionized, and pay $20/hour.
To stay competitive, A outsources to China, and now pays $0.50/hour.
Company B now has to outsource as well, to stay cometitive.

I'm not saying it's all the union's fault, but if worker(union) demands were less, less companies would make the giant logistical move to China.

quote:

I'm not sure I understand why people are so angry at corporations for wanting to earn profits? That's what they were established to do in the first place, and any corporation that doesn't increase profits goes out of business - and loses the money of the people who invested it. People easily accuse corporations as being the 'bad guys' and the people who invest as 'money hungry' - after all, the class war between the rich and the poor has always existed. It's easy to hate people with more money, but I don't see anyone - rich or poor - giving money away because they're ashamed to have too much.
Corporations have more of a voice in this "democracy" than individuals do, but they are absolved from an individual responsibility when they harm others. They also form government policy, which is antithetical for a democracy seeing that we do not vote for them.

We do vote for them, in several ways - We spend money on them, we vote for politicians who tolerate this, we invest in them to make our money work for us.

quote:

More importantly, the reality that real money doesn't come from luck, sports ability, or lottery tickets is vastly ignored. Bill Gates, richest man in the world, wasn't born rich, didn't come from old money or by exploiting south asian toy companies. He got that way by having a good idea, buying the tools to put it in use, and continually reinvesting what he earned into the company he was building. Anyone... anyone can do that. Hating the people who do won't make you any closer to being rich.
Tell that to the kid working in china that is illiterate and will be a slave to a company that sells cheap consumer shit to WalMart. They do not have any opportunity, and yes we are connected economically to such things. What you are saying is it is ok for American based corporations to go multi national and exploit child labor overseas, but that has no implications here at home, it is justified because of profits... if that IS your view (I did not mean to make a strawman if I am wrong), well it is not a very ethical or moral one, and sorry, I just do not agree with you.

I realize this argument is clicheed, but because of this outsourcing, China is fast becoming industrialised. Because of cheap labour there, people have incomes, trade is blooming, and freedoms are appearing. Is this a bad thing for the kids there?

I know, this was not a response to me, but I thought I'd add my 2 cents worth anyway.

Yours,

benji

_____________________________

Prevent global warming. Stop burning patchouli.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

RE: People should not have to work for a living. - 8/22/2006 11:21:50 AM

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

We have a "seperation of church and state" in the U.S. and we should also have a "seperation of big business and state".
It TOTALLY corrupts our government!

(in reply to gooddogbenji)

RE: People should not have to work for a living. - 8/22/2006 11:22:04 AM

Posts: 1553
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: zenofeller

It really goes against human dignity to have to do stuff, especially stuff other people don't want to do, and especially because someone else told you to do it ! It's like non consensual domination. It stinks.

Besides, people should only do what they feel like, it says so right in the geneva convention or something. Right ?

Should it be allowed ongoing continuity, technological advance will eventually rise upon an age in which we humans have little manual labor left to do, save what effort we may dispose at will toward the pursuance of our soulful and fleshly desires, of our eccentricities and unending curiosities about the Universe. Lovecraft sees it darkly:

"The sciences, each straining in its own direction, have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the deadly light into the peace and safety of a new dark age."

(in reply to zenofeller)

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