RE: Safeword Usage Over Time

RE: Safeword Usage Over Time (Full Version)

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marieToo -> RE: Safeword Usage Over Time (8/30/2006 11:30:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 How can you hold anything in your hands in bondage mittons? The question is how can you monitor the safety of your submissive during a scene? If you want her gagged, she cant speak. If you want her gagged and hands covered than she cant signal you. If you blindfold her, you cant read her eyes I dont know, Ive never placed myself in hands in someone who didnt know what they were doing. Thats my 'safeword'. But then what if I began to have an anxiety attack while scening. Should a dom be THAT good, that he can mind read her heart beginning to race and panic setting in....maybe he thinks shes getting off when shes really freaking out. I would think "Master please stop something is wrong" would be a pretty good indication that he should untie her and stop whatever he's doing. Theres a risk invovled not matter what, but I think if you are new, you should leave her mouth open. Or if shes gagged then I think body movement would change. The look in her eyes would change. The struggle would be different. Check her face, her head, her eyes, or ask her if shes ok.

SirMichealspeach -> RE: Safeword Usage Over Time (8/31/2006 12:30:58 AM)
This may be backwards for some of you but i am finding the need for a safe word more now that i have more experience. In the beginning of Master and my's relationship He gave me a safe word to use. i have never used it but once until recently. As my tolerance level grows and my trust for Him and His ability it seems He has become very fond of pushing my limits. I belive in the beginning He was easier on me, using floggers and paddles and stuff He knew i enjoyed .. this built my trust and eased my nerves thus no need for safe word .. Now however, We have expanded into some extreme play with whips, Bondage, Fire play, Breath Play ect... Don't get me wrong i do not "code" everytime we play these days because He does know me and is able to read my body language quite well. But somedays i am more tired or still sore from a previous scene and cannot tolerate as much. Sorry for the long reply. it just stuck me weird that most get to a point where a safe word is never needed .. i wonder how many go through this growing stage where the intensity is taken up a notch or two and find themselves need one more Sir Micheals peach

twicehappy -> RE: Safeword Usage Over Time (8/31/2006 4:35:37 AM)
I do believe safe words allow a newbie or new play partners a way out. Often saying something like stop will make a new person feel like they have failed at something when they have not, while saying red is easier. That being said i've only ever scened with a committed partner and i have always been comfortable with saying if something was wrong. When Scooter and Jewel and i scened the first time Scooter very seriously asked me what my safe word was and if i wanted to use one.(Do not get me wrong they believe in safe words, ours was an unusually high level of commitment and trust at that point). I giggled and replied if i say "fuck, stop that" they could be really sure i meant it. Neither of them had an issue with that. I think some people are just not as open or blatant about what they are feeling good or bad as others so a safe word allows them to communicate with their partner how they are feeling.

mstrjx -> RE: Safeword Usage Over Time (8/31/2006 4:36:27 AM)
On safewords: I have several points. Bear with me. For the most part, we who post here with some regularity for the most part have had sufficient experience such that arguing one way or another doesn't really change our minds about ourselves. What we have to keep in mind is that when we use this forum, we are also informing the people who come here just to look and not participate. They might be new and learning, they might be experienced and have firm opinions already. For these 'newbies' we often point them to 'starter' manuals, like Screw the Roses or Jay Wiseman's books or the Topping and Bottoming books, etc. In these, because the authors do not wish to get caught up in people reading their books and having their readers inadvertantly getting hurt, go over safety issues (and rightly so). Safe words are always mentioned in a positive light. I at least offer safe words when I enter into a new relationship. Like the OP and most of the respondents, they might be remembered but are ever so rarely used. In 15 years I'm sure I'm still on my first hand of how many times one has been used in my presence. For those who believe safe words are a prerequisite for stopping a scene (i.e. the beating will continue until you 'safe out'), I guess I think that's horse manure, but that's me. I find it so much more 'artful' to know exactly when to stop. Whoever is on the bottom is not only pleasantly surprised, but appreciates my skills ever so the more. As some relationships progress, some people decide to 'leave' D/s and 'enter' M/s. There's a mixed bag about what that actually entails, but I suppose it would be fair to me that the word 'surrender' is the mindset that the submissive person offers. Usually in their mind, and in mine as well, that means that my choice is the one that counts afterwards. That the safety net of a safeword is not permitted. But this point occurs because both parties understand that this point didn't occur except complete trust had been earned. How do I earn that situation with this person or that? Because they know that I pay attention. That I understand that person better, in the heat of the moment or not, than they do themselves quite a bit of the time. So yes, I will employ the use of gags and blindfolds and anything else that a) will give me pleasure and control in ways I find interesting and b) to mentally and psychologically alter the subject's abilities, not only physically. (These things ramp up the intensity in an already physically intense situation. So be it. All the better.) Do I watch for safety issues? Of course. So, there are reasons to have them, reasons not. It's probably not worth 'arguing' over, just stating a position and walking away. And Popeye, I believe that I hold the life of my submissive in my hands every time I play. Even if I am wearing bondage mittens. It's just a little harder to hold the floggers. Easier on the hands during a spanking, though. Jeff

popeye1250 -> RE: Safeword Usage Over Time (8/31/2006 4:47:19 AM)
What if she can't remember the safe word? "RED! No,...GREEN!,...shit! YELLOW? CHARTREUSE!!!?" "MAUVE!!!"

Homestead -> RE: Safeword Usage Over Time (8/31/2006 4:47:32 AM)
It's not a big issue if one is not a Sadist.

darkinshadows -> RE: Safeword Usage Over Time (8/31/2006 4:53:04 AM)
I would never be or play with someone who couldn't communicate or understand a scene without the use of a safe word. That isn't a case of growing out of it... it is a case of understanding how to communicate correctly. Peace and Rapture

mistoferin -> RE: Safeword Usage Over Time (8/31/2006 5:05:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mstrjx For the most part, we who post here with some regularity for the most part have had sufficient experience such that arguing one way or another doesn't really change our minds about ourselves. What we have to keep in mind is that when we use this forum, we are also informing the people who come here just to look and not participate. They might be new and learning, they might be experienced and have firm opinions already. Um really unsure of what your meaning is here. Twice in your post you referred to "arguing". I don't think that this is an argument, I think maybe it might be a debate, but even more it is just people stating differing views on a topic. I'm not sure how that tell people to "look and not participate". On the topic of safewords, you and many of the other posters here come from a vantage point of some experience. We are talking about newbies using safewords as their safety net. Most newbies have little knowledge and don't have the opportunity to have their first experiences guided by someone who has a vast amount of experience. The newbies are the ones who are usually falling prey to the clueless predator types or those who themselves have little practical experience. I don't believe that in such situations people should be reliant upon a code word for safety. In new relationships, even experienced people with new play partners, communication should be the top priority. You also mentioned M/s vs D/s relationships and said that when you cross the line into M/s safewords are sometimes not permitted because you have reached the point where complete trust had been earned. I would like to point out that a week does not go by here on CM where someone who is unattached one week meets and becomes the owned property slave of someone else....we usually hear about it in glowing reports about how they found their "One", only to watch it all come crashing down days or weeks later. Newbies tend to rush into things and they often lose all common sense in the process. Often times that means putting themselves in situations of trusting when no trust has indeed been "earned".

twicehappy -> RE: Safeword Usage Over Time (8/31/2006 5:05:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mstrjx I find it so much more 'artful' to know exactly when to stop. Whoever is on the bottom is not only pleasantly surprised, but appreciates my skills ever so the more. As some relationships progress, some people decide to 'leave' D/s and 'enter' M/s. Usually in their mind, and in mine as well, that means that my choice is the one that counts afterwards. That the safety net of a safeword is not permitted. But this point occurs because both parties understand that this point didn't occur except complete trust had been earned. How do I earn that situation with this person or that? Because they know that I pay attention. That I understand that person better, in the heat of the moment or not, than they do themselves quite a bit of the time. Do I watch for safety issues? Of course. I believe that I hold the life of my submissive in my hands every time I play. A most wonderful post and extremely well put. I believe a lot of us see it this way. It is true i never worry about being blindfolded etc because i know they pay attention and know me to a tee. I have never worried about whether or not either of them could read me by body language alone because they always do. I am never afraid to try anything or be in any situation with them either, my safety is always first in their minds, after all they do want to keep me healthy and happy, most important i KNOW they love me. Edited to ad i do think this applies to long term relationships only. As i said in my original post folks who are new or playing with new partners should have a safeword in place.

ADomDoc -> RE: Safeword Usage Over Time (8/31/2006 5:07:46 AM)
Just a few of my thoughts on the subect of safewords: 1) Good idea for beginners (on the giving or receiving end) & for new relationships til folks learn ea other's limits & body language. 2) A safe word is only as good as the Dom/me is honorable. A Dom/me w/o integrity can easily ignore your safeword ... except in public play (assuming there are DMs & they are potent enough to stop a scene). 3) The comment that some Dom/mes might get their feelings hurt when a safeword is called is no excuse ... get over it! If the Dom/me is so unskilled or insensitive to the sub/slave's body language, and is so inept as to push limits w/o first putting the sub/slave into subspace ... then s/he needs to get stopped. 4) A 3-step (or more) safeword seems to be a better system ... a common one is green ok // yellow ... gettin' intense // red ... stop you sonofabitch. At least with a 'yellow' the beginner Dom/me will know to back off a bit ... or at least not get any more intense. 5) I don't mind any sub/slave wanting a safeword ... but I've never had more than a yellow in almost 40 yrs of experience ... and I'm considered a 'heavy' playing Dom by everyone who's seen me play. It's all a matter of the Dom/me paying attention to ONLY the sub/slave ... watching body language & listening to the sub/slave. ANY Dom/me who plays to the crowd (trying to look cool, or more "Domly", etc) will invariably give the sub/slave a bad scene ... either too wimpy, or inconsistent (wimpy/rough/wimpy/rough), or insensitively harsh. Advice to any Dom/mes ... if you find yourself being aware of the crowd & how your scene looks ... then you are not focused on your sub/slave ... refocus. The BEST scene is one where the sub comes away satisfied ... and that will only happen if you focus on the sub/slave. 6) With time, all of my subs/slaves find they don't need a safeword with me because I can read where a sub/slave is in relation to her limits. Heck ... even slaves of other Doms who ask me to play them find I can push them farther than their own Dom & they ask for more (see my Journal entry). It's all about being aware of the sub & making her the focus of everything during a scene. YMMV

OriginalWench -> RE: Safeword Usage Over Time (8/31/2006 6:41:57 AM)
Just skimmed through the replies here, because I'm frikkin' exhausted, and need to lay down. So please, keep in mind that I may not be at my most lucid right now. But, what the heck, nothing ventured, nothing gained. When The Mate and I first discovered that we wanted a little kink in our lives (we started out nilla), we found a local group that was very much into having safewords. So when we started to play, we always had one. Thing is, he knows me and my body so well, that I've never had to even think about using it. He can play me like an instrument, and he's a maestro at it. So now, we don't bother with a safeword. If there is ever a problem, I have full trust that he will see it anyway. If we're playing in a newer area for us, we're better off if I just tell him what I'm feeling, i.e. "The rope on my left wrist is a little tight." or "Ouch! The bewbs are extra sensitive right now." In other areas, he already know exactly what reaction he's trying to elicit, and he just does what he does. So for us, in our play, safewords are not needed. We didnt' so much agree not to use them, just stopped talking about it. Now, we're monogamous for now, and likely to stay so for quite a while, as we seem to have found our 'groove' so to speak, and we don't need anything else. That may change later, and we'll deal with it then if it does. At a dungeon, safewords might be a really good idea, especially for playijng with somebody one doesn't know well, because the DM can put a halt to play if the Dom/me were to ignore a safeword. So when it comes to that, it's a good thing, and a very important thing. I think it also helps makes newer or more nervous players feel more at ease, knowing that they have the means to stop a scene. I've noticed some people like to play to a safeword, and will go to great lengths to make the bottom safe out. This is basically a style The Mate and I don't use, but that may change later too, we're pretty open to going with the flow, and if the relationship heads that way, then that's the way it goes. I've also met some folks who generally don't play to safeword want to try it 'just once'. Watching a scene between a Domme friend and a sub that she plays with regularly at a party one night was really impressive. They do have a safeword, but it isn't really needed for them. The Domme spends a lot of time checking on the sub, and makes it look like part of the play, which I suppose it is. This sub is a real pain slut, and plays for release. She wants it hard and painful, and takes a lot more than I likely could. The scene was so intense and personal, and I felt honoroed to share in it by just watching. As it progressed, I could see the sub getting deeper and deeper, and closer to that release. I'm not sure whether the release came a moment before the Domme knew it was time to stop, or if the Domme knew to stop the moment before the release came, but when that time hit, the Domme immediately was taking the sub off the cross with another sub's help. The sub collapsed and the Domme caught, her, wrapped her in a blanket, and held her as she sobbed for several minutes. Once she was done sobbing, and ready to rejoin the party, in a manner of speaking, she was giggly and happy the rest of the night. I'm not doing the scene justice, but it really hit home with me for some reason. Maybe because I could feel the build up and release as well. Anyway, I don't think safewords are a bad idea, but a couple would need to to decide for themselves. Much like a lot of life, it's a personal choice, and one should be aware of as much as possible before making a decision. And nobody should ever be denigrated or put down because their choice is different than another might make. And now I need to put myself to bed, I'm seeing three screens instead of one.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Safeword Usage Over Time (8/31/2006 6:57:40 AM)
Reposted: I think I'm going to smash my computer to bits if I read one more post that suggests you need safewords more somehow in the beginning of a relationship than you do later in the relationship, or that safewords are some magical symbol of trust. The logic in that is so completely off and incomplete. True to my previous words, here is a story by Ownedgirlie which is the epitome of how ACTUAL communication works in ACTUAL scenes: No safeword here. Once I thought my ankle was about to break and I shrieked "ANKLE!!!" because really the only thing going on in my head at that very second was ANKLE!!! and he pulled back so that my ankle didn't break after all and we kept going. It's not a safe word though. He could have chosen to break my ankle if he wanted to, and then I'd be in a cast for awhile. Typically the change in my cries/moans/yelps clue him in pretty good if something is wrong - gag or no gag. It's rare such a thing happens, but 100% of the time it has happened, he adjusted immediately. So far nothing has ever occurred which actually stopped our activity. An ankle push can happen in Scene #1, or Scene #1000. This has nothing to do with TRUST, it has to do with LIFE. You have to understand and use communication in EVERY scene, on EVERY step of the way. The trust you need is that everyone will communicate honestly and respond as expected- NOT some ridiculous idea that if you trust someone enough that they won't snap your ankle. Communication doesn't get to go away, subs don't get to stop communicating and doms aren't omnipotent. Shit happens in scenes, no matter how many years you've been together or how awesome a player you are. Use a safeword or not, but for crying out loud stop suggesting that they hold some magical properties or that you somehow don't need them in the future- because accidents and problems happen in scene #4796 just as much as they happen in scene #1. http://www.collarchat.com/m_489399/mpage_2/key_safeword%252Ctrust/tm.htm#490123 Schools of thought...an off shoot http://www.collarchat.com/m_355604/mpage_1/key_safeword/tm.htm#355604 Safewords are NOT for novices! http://www.collarchat.com/m_232414/mpage_1/key_safeword/tm.htm#232414 safewords? http://www.collarchat.com/m_228130/mpage_1/key_safeword/tm.htm#228130 safeword http://www.collarchat.com/m_137937/mpage_1/key_safeword/tm.htm#137937 Forcing your sub to safeword? http://www.collarchat.com/m_131432/mpage_1/key_safeword/tm.htm#131432 Safe words http://www.collarchat.com/m_93603/mpage_1/key_safeword/tm.htm#93603 Overuse of a safeword? http://www.collarchat.com/m_69981/mpage_1/key_safeword/tm.htm#69981 safewords not allowed? http://www.collarchat.com/m_14335/mpage_1/key_safeword/tm.htm#14335 should a slave in training be allowed safewords?

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Safeword Usage Over Time (8/31/2006 7:00:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 How can you hold anything in your hands in bondage mittons? Let's not take this literally Popeye. Any signal can be used- an eyeblink, a foot stomp, a twitch, a sound, whatever signal you want to devise. Obviously if you want them to use a particular signal and you take away their ability to do that, then you can't use that signal. Then you have to decide if you want to use another signal or not use a signal at all.

Homestead -> RE: Safeword Usage Over Time (8/31/2006 7:06:23 AM)
This subject is hashed over endlessly. And really just comes back to competence and common sense.[&:]

mstrjx -> RE: Safeword Usage Over Time (8/31/2006 7:11:16 AM)
deleted, see below

Miseri -> RE: Safeword Usage Over Time (8/31/2006 7:27:10 AM)
I'm not quite sure about how I feel about this. As a submissive, I have a safeword (toast...yes, I picked a silly one). But, I never ever wanted to use it because I felt it was a failing to give in and say 'stop'. I still don't like to but now I can understand it's use. I can see how things can get confusing for a Dominant. If I'm screaming my head off, it doesn't mean to stop. No (in this case) doesn't mean to stop. Leaving marks on my skin doesn't mean stop. So how else will he know if I need to? It's not that he isn't good or doesn't know how to read me as has been implied in this thread. It is because he wants to be cautious. He trusts that I can seem to be in great pain and want to keep going, but he also trusts that I will let him know when it is enough or too much. It seldom is necessary for me to stop anything he does. I am a very good communicator. He is good at reading me, but then again, I give him a lot to go on. All of my responses are easily read by my dominant...I express things in my body language, my facial expressions and am pretty vocal. I guess I could see this going either way, really...I see merit in both arguments. One more thing I wanted to add...I am not sure who originally said: "You also mentioned M/s vs D/s relationships and said that when you cross the line into M/s safewords are sometimes not permitted because you have reached the point where complete trust had been earned", but I take umbridge at that. I am in a D/s relationship (of 6 years) where complete trust is an important component. Most D/s relationships are based on trust. I don't view M/s or D/s as being any better than the other. I just wanted to contest the implication there that M/s has a deeper trust level.

mstrjx -> RE: Safeword Usage Over Time (8/31/2006 7:33:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin quote: ORIGINAL: mstrjx For the most part, we who post here with some regularity for the most part have had sufficient experience such that arguing one way or another doesn't really change our minds about ourselves. What we have to keep in mind is that when we use this forum, we are also informing the people who come here just to look and not participate. They might be new and learning, they might be experienced and have firm opinions already. Um really unsure of what your meaning is here. Twice in your post you referred to "arguing". I don't think that this is an argument, I think maybe it might be a debate, but even more it is just people stating differing views on a topic. I'm not sure how that tell people to "look and not participate". On the topic of safewords, you and many of the other posters here come from a vantage point of some experience. We are talking about newbies using safewords as their safety net. Most newbies have little knowledge and don't have the opportunity to have their first experiences guided by someone who has a vast amount of experience. The newbies are the ones who are usually falling prey to the clueless predator types or those who themselves have little practical experience. I don't believe that in such situations people should be reliant upon a code word for safety. In new relationships, even experienced people with new play partners, communication should be the top priority. mist, this is what confuses me most. Newbies coming here look at us, whether we are or not, as experts. Some here really are, some less so, but we are looked up to. Erring on the side of caution, to say that one of us (an expert) doesn't use safe words, see the need of them, and that they are probably more counterproductive than not (paraphrased) is possibly sending the wrong message. Most people here have said that they condone them, but don't require them in their own practice. I think that is the better message. Taking a hard line one vs. the other does seem more of an argument than debate. I think this subject is at least important enough to newer folks that it falls into something that requires a little more heat. quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin You also mentioned M/s vs D/s relationships and said that when you cross the line into M/s safewords are sometimes not permitted because you have reached the point where complete trust had been earned. I would like to point out that a week does not go by here on CM where someone who is unattached one week meets and becomes the owned property slave of someone else....we usually hear about it in glowing reports about how they found their "One", only to watch it all come crashing down days or weeks later. Newbies tend to rush into things and they often lose all common sense in the process. Often times that means putting themselves in situations of trusting when no trust has indeed been "earned". I agree completely, of course. I daresay that a newbie coming to visit 'mstrjx' and one who sees 'MasterSnertUserDom' probably get two first impressions. That much of their prior communications comes across in written word, there are a lot of people who know how to spin a word, regardless of their actual experience or their intent. For me, the 'monkeys at the typewriter in the backroom' has done fairly well. They're just better at BDSM philosophy than Shakespeare. Maybe one day. It would be lovely for newbies to find one of 'us' first. I've been doing WIITWD for 15 years, but I would imagine that it was my character going in that allowed me to gain (and earn, and keep earning) someone's trust even back then. Communication, compassion, empathy. These are easy concepts for me (as I responded to in another post). But I don't have all newbies coming to me the first time. Apparently what communications I have when I send out initial messages aren't as 'masterly' and 'compelling' than the abusers. I try not to overwhelmingly feed someone's fantasies going in. But I no doubt have a better chance of being able to actually achieve that. It just isn't how I approach someone. Can I get off the soapbox now? Jeff

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Safeword Usage Over Time (8/31/2006 7:44:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mstrjx Erring on the side of caution, to say that one of us (an expert) doesn't use safe words, see the need of them, and that they are probably more counterproductive than not (paraphrased) is possibly sending the wrong message. Most people here have said that they condone them, but don't require them in their own practice. I think that is the better message. I think Erin's sending exactly the right message. You should check out the "Safewords are NOT for novices" thread.

mistoferin -> RE: Safeword Usage Over Time (8/31/2006 7:47:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mstrjx Erring on the side of caution, to say that one of us (an expert) doesn't use safe words, see the need of them, and that they are probably more counterproductive than not (paraphrased) is possibly sending the wrong message. Most people here have said that they condone them, but don't require them in their own practice. I think that is the better message. See though mstrjx, while you see it as the wrong message...I see it as the absolutely right message. That doesn't mean that I have any desire to get into an argument over it....but I do want to clearly state my stance. Both perspectives ought to be laid right out there so that as I said before, people can evaluate the risks and make informed decisions. Often I see a lot of people with very little experience that tout or condemn an issue....I want to be able to offer the perspective of someone that has a good deal of experience. I have very valid reasons why I feel the way I do about safewords...and I can cite many specific examples of how I came to my opinion on the matter. It is not something that I speak just to hear myself, it is a subject that I have strong opinions on as this position that I take is one that I have come to "from" experience. If people don't choose to apply what I say I don't have any issue with that. It is their choice to make. However, I at least want to make clear to them that there is a choice.

PhoenixLM -> RE: Safeword Usage Over Time (8/31/2006 7:50:10 AM)
Safewords are good tools when used properly or a sub/slave/bottom has the ability to actually use it, without abusing it. I am one of the ones that when in a scene can not physically use a safe word or signal. With this in mind I have the limit of never playing with someone I am not in a relationship with. This limit has expanded to a degree I will act as a target for someone as long as my Mistress is right there to stop the scene if need be, and she request it of me. We do not play often, but when we do it is always a little over the top. The first time we were going to do a public scene at our local munch we warned the DM's in advance. We explained to them that I have a very high pain tolerance (but am not a painpup) and I cuss like a salior. We were immediatly asked what my safeword was, we both looked at the DM's and said "What safeword?" We had to then explain it was a waste of effort to come up ith one because I had never been capable of using one. So again while safewords are good tools if used properly, some of us are incapable of using it.

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