RE: Do slaves have the right to say no?

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RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? - 9/2/2006 5:22:17 AM

calla

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To their owner, No . they can say it all they want but will it be honored is up to the owner. To another other than their owner if it means that their owner's property would be damaged then by all means yes.

begs forgiveness if she has been unpleasing
calla{MJ}

(in reply to IronBear)

RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? - 9/2/2006 5:32:30 AM

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To me its obvious that you do have limits and have found one. It also sounds like you had expressed your past trauma to your master and rather than taking care of his property he chose to cause more trauma. If you want to continue to label yourself as a no limits slave find someone with good sense and ditch the putz.

Ever since I got into this I've always believed that the ultimate safeword (even for those who claim to have none) is goodbye. If he is not willing to care about your mental and emotional safety and well being I would suggest using it.

(in reply to toughbutgood)

RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? - 9/2/2006 5:39:32 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yourkajira

Isnt that the trade off? Obedience for the security of being cared for?

In the type of slavery you are talking about, and by your nic I'm assuming you're going by Gorean ethics, I would not put it that way. I'm not arguing for slaves having rights per se or security per se, I'm making a somewhat different argument about a master's responsibility or at least tactful ownership. An owner should not harm a slave – what is the sense in that?

Beat in a manner that the slave will heal on their own? Fine by me. Like it or not, if you are property, that isn't your place to decide.

Use sexually? Let's be honest, that's part of why we're doing this. Like it or not, that isn't your place to decide.

Anal sex without lube is a different story, this is a dumb idea. That is physiological fact and has nothing to do with the power exchange. A little rough is one thing but this part of the body isn't really designed to lubricate itself like a vagina is. The little sister of someone I dated a few years back actually had an anal fissure, as in bad rectal tearing, from rough anal play. (And yeah, that's a conversation that I would have liked to have erased from my brain.) Google that term, it ain't pretty. I'd detail it here but I'm eating breakfast as I write this. Suffice to say, tearing your rectum can require surgery to repair. The only good statistical figure I found was on http://www.medicinenet.com and it stated that anal fissures result in 6-15% of visits to a rectal surgeon – this is a fairly easy area to injure if you are not careful. Know what you are doing and the risks of what you are doing. Some people recommend it being so lubed that it is a slip and slide, which is a bit too much if you ask me. That's the amount of lube used to introduce anal sex to a vanilla newbie. One should add at least add enough to make it tolerable but not too much so you lose all friction and feeling.

If anal sex is hurting badly, physiologically that isn't good for the body. If painful anal sex is also causing psychological trauma, that's two problems and I'd hope an owner would address them. As this is not a theoretical circumstance but something that actually happened, I'd also hope that the slave in question has made her owner aware of what was going on so he can make the correct decision. “Master, this hurts” isn't saying a lot. “Master, this could injure me and I think I may have a rape flashback” is another thing entirely.

By my ethics, if someone has consented with me to what some call “consensual nonconscent” or what I call “blank check consent” and I cause her more pain than she wants or enjoys, I haven't done anything wrong. If I cause an injury (such as a good solid welt from a cane) that will heal without requiring more medical attention than I can give her, that is ethical in my book. Personality modification is also kosher. Where I draw the line is injury that I should not be treating, causing significant psychological damage, outing her to family and friends and things along those lines. I don't cause pointless injury to a slave any more than I need to kick my car to teach it that it is mine -- that is what I have the title for.

In your case, from what you described your owner decided that the potential injury and potential psychological damage wasn't worth using a little lube. If that is the case, it looks like he was just thinking with his dick to me. If he wanted to prove a point by causing you pain then he could have chosen many other ways to do it that would avoid risking injury. Making a slave endure pain could be his right and I'm not arguing with that at all, sometimes more pain than she wants or likes can be a good thing to do with a slave to make her feel her place.

To sum up my early morning rambling (keep in mind, it is 5:00AM here) the gist is, I don't have a problem with a slave being used by her owner or forced to endure pain by her owner. Risking injury that could require surgery “just because” is an entirely different matter and a pretty dumb thing to do. People who do dumb things with their property often find that either it breaks if it isn't alive or if it is living property, it leaves.

If that kind of thing continues, slave or not, he can succeed in driving you away. No slave wants to be injured enough to have to go see a doctor. I can't quote the Gor books on it but they do state on at least a couple of occasions that only a fool injures his slave. Use her, punish her, brand her but harming a slave, like the free woman did in Assassin of Gor and Norman made sure that it came back to haunt them. In the book, the free woman's karma came back in the form of a power hungry merchant who shaved her head, reduced her to slavery and tried to get the mutilated slave to cut off the free woman's nose and ears if I remember correctly. In real life, it may be the police – especially somewhere with mandatory domestic violence reporting.

I'm not against the practice of Gorean philosophy, even though John Norman is. What I am against is the notion that some Goreans have that reading 26 fantasy, fictional novels without reading any non-fiction qualifies someone to own a slave or to become one. Why one uses lube with anal sex is considered pretty basic information in BDSM circles and so I have to question how much practical knowledge does this man have? I don't know you, I don't know your master and I am not going to pretend to by judging you or him – I have tried to carefully frame much of my post as conjectures. What I can say is that if you and your owner have not educated yourselves on the reality of a master / slave relationship or neglect to apply that knowledge, your relationship isn't going to be long for this world. Even if you have educated yourselves, one can always learn more.

Joe

(in reply to toughbutgood)

RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? - 9/2/2006 5:40:05 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yourkajira

In certain cases.

for example, you have a slave and you are interested in anal sex. you are not interested in lube, or whatever, and when you do (she obediently complies) the girl who has such a high pain tolerence begs you stop, because it hurts too much.Now, this is a girl who has been raped (on several different occurances) in the past and you know this. Do you tell her basically that she has no right to deny you something that you want, and do it anyway, especially if you are...um...well endowed and don't take it easy. So, do you stop or tell her to shut up?

i am sorry for your trauma experiences, they must have been difficult to process and recover from. i think deep down you know the answer to your own question.

You chose a lifestyle "Gorean" which has very defined and strict guidelines for what it is to be a slave and Master. There are no negotiations, by and large, for those who practice its philosophy. Just the mere fact that collarme has a whole section for Goreans and yet you come here with your question, speaks volumes. You know what those on the Gorean boards will tell you. Does your Master know you are posting these questions here?

i am not trying to be critical or hard here, just trying to make you rethink your own decisions so you can make the decisions that are right for you.

IMO there are no such thing as no limits - it's silly to even contemplate such a thing. And to equate saying you are a no limits slave with having the same limits as your Master is playing with fire in my book - people lie, people, change, etc.

i think you got more then you bargained for and are over your head *tosses you a life preserver* Hope it all works out for you.

_____________________________

Religion is for people who are scared of hell, Spirituality is for people who have been there

(in reply to Yourkajira)

RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? - 9/2/2006 5:45:35 AM

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[reply deleted]

< Message edited by JustaDom -- 9/2/2006 5:56:16 AM >

(in reply to IronBear)

RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? - 9/2/2006 6:06:10 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JustaDom
quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

In a word, NO!!!!!

If she does she is breaching her slavery and should be begging release or sold to another Master.

I know there are times and especially with a newby or inexperienced master or just with a pseudo master that she needs to refuse to protect her safety but than she nedds to be out of that situation and collar.

Um...IronBear...she needs to take back her right to say no to get out of the situation you just described. Taking back her right to tell him no is going to be one of her first steps in that process.

Joe

Greetings, Master Joe.

please forgive her for arguing, but, in actuality, there are two ways to end a Gorean Master/slave relationship... and neither involve taking back the right to say 'no' to one's Master. The first is begging release from His collar... in which case, should he grant it, you are given back said right, and then he is no longer your Master, so it matters little. The second is just walking away... still not taking the right to say no to one's Master... as, again, at that point, he is no longer her Master.

Best wishes to Thee and Thine,
With all respect, and in hopes that this is pleasing to the Free,
bina, of Wolf.

< Message edited by millisande -- 9/2/2006 6:09:21 AM >

_____________________________

[img]http://www.swampreclamation.org/forum/images/avatars/gallery/home%20made/camelback-mountain.jpg[/img]

(in reply to JustaDom)

RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? - 9/2/2006 6:10:12 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

In a word, NO!!!!!

than she nedds to be out of that situation and collar.

And this is the quandry. If the word is "no" but "she needs to be out of that situation and collar", then the word is NOT "no" but "yes" when your health is at risk. And in my world, before all else, I have the obligation to keep myself healthy - be it for him or for me, or for whomever, if I am not healthy, then I can not do whatever else I am called upon to do - whether that be to care for him, work my job or take care of my family. First rule is to keep yourself healthy. If that means you have to take the steps necessary to step out of that situation, then that's what you have to do.

juliet

(in reply to IronBear)

RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? - 9/2/2006 6:46:17 AM

cutew

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For what it matters, I noticed the name, and although, don't have a full understanding of  Gorean idea's. (I was suggested to stay away from this, LONG ago, because, of the idea's that slaves are treated as "animals")
But for myself, I am slave, I actually don't have limits, because I invested my time BEFORE starting with Master ;-). HIS opinions and mine do match...My hard limits will never be crossed because his and mine are the same. For those that change, it is rather simple...I understand Master will NEVER do any thing that will truly harm me, in body or mind! He knows much of my past, and at times the past has caused issues...But if a "new" flash back comes, or such, I freely talk with him and warn him, it could be a problem, really never is. I believe Master and I are a good match because even on simple things, he relates. I strive to please at all times, he understands although he gave me safewords, that I refuse to use them...IF I ever said NO to him, I know he would stop, because it is so unlike me. He understands that every one has limits to body and mind...he would never do any thing that would cross those hard limits we talked about, in the beginning! He and I agreed both had the same limits...He does protect his property!
See the point is, I have promised Master the only right I will EVER hold on to for myself, is IF I serve him or not! It is the right that every one will always have!
I could careless what lifestyle you lead, who you belong to, or what place you hold (bottom, sub, slave, top, dom, Master/Owner), YOU still ALWAYS hold the choice of to state who you are with, or not with!   Even in Gorean...Because NO matter your world of fantasy, the world of reality, states, that every person has this right...IF you are refused that right, well the law has words for it ;-).
     I can understand the pain and torment the OP may have by going through this, and putting this to the boards, but the true answer to this, is inside her, and she only needs to look for it!
     Each has their own points of view, each and every person on this planet has their own needs and wants as well. I am who I am to Master NOT because he forces it, but because it is what I need, to start with. I can't be slave, without an Owner, but the reverse is true too! Owner is nothing without his property!
Does it make you less of a slave? I don't think so, it makes you human! Talking and being open with the one you are with, is the best choice you have...Slave's IN my opinion have the right to say NO, to explain why, to state the problems, but then you accept Master's choice on the matter! HE should be making the choice based on what is BEST for BOTH of you, NOT just himself! Is my opinion...but every one is different...although your post gives the impression this is what you are looking for, and may not be getting...then it is up to you, to make him see this, or leave!
Be well,
C W

(in reply to julietsierra)

RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? - 9/2/2006 7:00:36 AM

Posts: 2311
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From: South Central CO
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Hmmmmmmmm; interesting dilemma.

Not having been privy to the actual ‘incident’, nobody here can actually say, for certain what actually happened. The girl MAY be exaggerating her case here; ‘no’ lube could mean ‘not enough lube for her preferences’ and ‘shut up and relax’ could have been: ‘you’re fine, baby’ We don’t really know…but I’m going to discuss the issue of ‘Do slaves have the right to say no’

First of all, I believe slavery in the context of the BDSM lifestyle is consensual…be it Gor or otherwise. Having said that, I want to also suggest that the smartest thing I’ve seen you state is “i was always of the opinion that i would never be made to do something that was harmful for me in a way that i would want to stop.” Yes…there in lies common sense, no? (well, assuming ‘something’ is actually harmful and not just unpleasant)

Tell me, from what you’ve said…he has his own issues (kicks & screams at night?) and seems not concerned with your physical or psychological well-being. Should he decide, in the mental state he seems to be in, that…say for ‘punishment’…you need to have your finger cut off…would you allow it or would you say NO?

I believe this is much like any other ‘domestic violence’ act…it will escalate with time. He may want to hurt you with anal sex sans lube today, but he WILL get more creative; IF that is his desire…to hurt you.

I agree with so many here who say; it is up to YOU to keep yourself (property) safe. If he chooses not to ‘hear’ you when you suggest you are not…then you need to walk. THAT behavior (not keeping you safe) is NON consensual.

beverly

(in reply to Yourkajira)

RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? - 9/2/2006 7:02:47 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: femilina

am sweet slim looking good lady with long hair with 100 % trust and hornest and love am good girl who can do anything for a man in my life a man who is ready to be with me for the rest of my life.am a lady with good body and good ass and nice body and a clean lady am so hornest that i want a life partner.am a lady to satisfy a man with all my haert my heart my soul and my body to give my man who can love me cus am so caring and a loving lady. am lady who realy long time relationshp and i want sriuse relationship.am lady who realy love to make love all the time and i like sex .join me on [email protected]

alright..did I miss something here?

(in reply to femilina)

RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? - 9/2/2006 7:04:58 AM

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From: South Central CO
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quote:

ORIGINAL: femilina
am sweet slim looking good lady with long hair with 100 % trust and hornest and love am good girl who can do anything for a man in my life a man who is ready to be with me for the rest of my life............and i like sex .join me on yahoomaster.femijames1983@

EWWWWWWWWWWWWW I do hope the mods find this and empty the trash!

Oh sorry...did I say that outloud?

(in reply to femilina)

RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? - 9/2/2006 7:05:37 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissyRane

quote:

ORIGINAL: femilina

am sweet slim looking good lady with long hair with 100 % trust and hornest and love am good girl who can do anything for a man in my life a man who is ready to be with me for the rest of my life.am a lady with good body and good ass and nice body and a clean lady am so hornest that i want a life partner.am a lady to satisfy a man with all my haert my heart my soul and my body to give my man who can love me cus am so caring and a loving lady. am lady who realy long time relationshp and i want sriuse relationship.am lady who realy love to make love all the time and i like sex .join me on [email protected]

alright..did I miss something here?

Missy, apparently I did also.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to MissyRane)

RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? - 9/2/2006 7:09:05 AM

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From: South Central CO
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Right Missy...you missed a (perhaps) 16 year old boy sneeking under the tent! Or, might it have been some alien hawking her wares where she can?

Wierd to keep messing up 'honest' with 'horniest', huh? LOL

(in reply to MissyRane)

RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? - 9/2/2006 7:17:14 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: millisande

Greetings, Master Joe.

please forgive her for arguing, but...[snip]

bina, at this point, I think we are discussing semantics. I thought that my reply to IronBear would cause this and I was right, which is why I deleted it. Begging for release is also asking for permission to say no to the relationship and just walking out is a very strongly worded no to the entire relationship.

Of the two you mentioned, begging for release is at least the respectful option. I'm sure we both know of some slaves, Gorean or not, who have ended relationships in other fashions. Some of the ways I am thinking of were pretty negative and I'm not going to repeat them here. I have no need to scare off the newbies.

Joe

(in reply to millisande)

RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? - 9/2/2006 7:28:32 AM

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Greetings, Master Joe.

this girl appoligizes, she did not realize that you had deleted your post, at the time that she posted.
re-reading it, she sees where you feel that it is a semantics issue, and she both agrees and disagrees on different levels... thank you for correcting her,
Best wishes to Thee and Thine,
With all respect, and in hopes that this is pleasing to the Free,
bina, of Wolf

_____________________________

[img]http://www.swampreclamation.org/forum/images/avatars/gallery/home%20made/camelback-mountain.jpg[/img]

(in reply to JustaDom)

RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? - 9/2/2006 7:35:20 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yourkajira
In certain cases. for example, you have a slave and you are interested in anal sex. you are not interested in lube, or whatever, and when you do (she obediently complies) the girl who has such a high pain tolerence begs you stop, because it hurts too much.Now, this is a girl who has been raped (on several different occurances) in the past and you know this. Do you tell her basically that she has no right to deny you something that you want, and do it anyway, especially if you are...um...well endowed and don't take it easy. So, do you stop or tell her to shut up?

You stop.   Latter, you might ask if she really wanted you to stop.   But there is no question,
you shouldn't do anything she doesn't want you to do, unless that was clearly negotiated
IMEDIATELY beforehand and put on paper. For the sake of not causing tissue damage,
you should always use lube.   Not using lots of lube in my opinion is insane. There needs
to be a lot better communication between sub and slave. This question would never
come up, had this been discussed with the sub before hand. What makes bdsm
legal is the fact that it is consensual. And consensual requires a level of communication
to ensure there are no misunderstandings.

In any event you need to be very careful when you do anything like this to make
sure you don't tear tissue or cause any damage.    Any dom who causes physical
damage to their sub, should be hung by his balls. If this law was in effect, would
you stop, if your sub asked you to stop during such an act.

Even if a sub told me before hand that I could do this, I would stop.    It is the Top's
ultimate responsibility not to damage the body of the sub. If a sub begged me to
damage her body, I would not do it. It would also be against the law in many
states and a prosecutable offense.    You can't legally damage somone's body,
even if they consent.

Concerning the fact she was raped in the past, this is something that requires
extensive discussion before play, and you need to discuss how forced play
would effect her. In a situation like this you need to be extra careful, not to
damage her psyche. It is always better to err on the side of caution and safety.
You can always ask her she felt about it. If you are into forcing her to endure
things she really doesn't want, and you know she raped, you have to find out if
this is really something she generally wants you to do. If you are doing it against
her general wishes then you are being abusive and taking advantage of her.

If you are the sub, you should get therapy and flee from this guy. He is
dangerous and uncaring.

Except for real tissue damage, everything is negotiable and should be
negotiated before hand. If a top does something without first getting
consent, it is most likely a crime and a presecutable offense. If a top
does something without consent, that you really didn't like, you should
flee from this top or dom.    A collar is not a license to abuse a sub or
violate the law.

< Message edited by WhipTheHip -- 9/2/2006 7:55:42 AM >

(in reply to Yourkajira)

RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? - 9/2/2006 7:42:20 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissyRane

So do you think that if a person says no limits it means that you could also ask the slave if they'd mind if you killed them and they wouldn't have the right to say no or say hey now I'm gonna try a new game..it's called skin-you-alive doesn't it sound fun? EVERYBODY has some kind of limits, it's human to have limits be it slave or not.
My 2 cents

I guess it was only a matter of time before someone would bring up the asinine situations that everyone knows full well a sane person isn't going to get into. Stupidity is afoot.

_____________________________

If you love somebody, you have to be willing to break them.

Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.

Have you slapped your slave today?

(in reply to MissyRane)

RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? - 9/2/2006 7:49:29 AM

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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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Children who do not play nicely with their toys break them, and then they have no toys anymore. If a dominant is like a child who misuses a toy and breaks it, perhaps it would be better to find one that has grown up and respects their toys

Just my thoughts

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Yourkajira)

RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? - 9/2/2006 7:57:12 AM

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But why do some people end UP in 'asinine' situations then huh?

(in reply to juliaoceania)

RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? - 9/2/2006 7:59:00 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yourkajira

quote:

ORIGINAL: JustaDom

Would you also make the argument that their owner has no obligations or responsibility at all in regards to their health and safety?

Joe

Isnt that the trade off? Obedience for the security of being cared for?

If the Obedience causes serious physical or emotional damage, where is the security of being cared for?

(in reply to Yourkajira)

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