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The problem with pro femdoms - 9/29/2006 9:33:52 AM   
AAkasha


Posts: 4429
Joined: 11/27/2004
Status: offline 		There are a lot of reasons male subs continually come around and complain about pro femdoms, and wonder out loud why so many women are in it for the money and that he THOUGHT that he could find a femdom who would want to dominate him for her own pleasure....

I believe, on some level, many subs have an image in their head of the femdom as a seductress, a woman with a healthy sexual appetite, one who WANTS domination (as bad as he wants submission) and is seeking it, passionately, and will gladly entertain the idea of submission even from a man she may not know.  This is part of the fantasy of submission - the idea that really, he doesn't have to DO anything except be in the right place at the right time.  In fact, he may not even have a choice -- she's a "hungry" femdom, and he's available prey -- just walk right in and get snatched up. At least, that's what the femdom literature says, right?

The idea that he might actually have to develop mutual respect with a woman, date her, god forbid - COURT her, and win affection, goes contrary to the entire fantasy/ideal in the first place.  That's not a FEMDOM, that's not a HUNGRY DOMINANT WOMAN -- that's just a -- another "woman" that needs to be wined and dined and romanced.

Yet, here are these ladies, they DO want no strings attached, they do want all the hot fetishes, they are willing to take him and make him endure all that stuff without even knowing his last name.  However, there's a catch. He has to pay her! He can't reconcile why, if she wants THIS as much as he does, does she not just do it for free?  Don't even try to explain to him that she DOES to it for free -- to men with whom she shares romance, affection, friendship, or maybe just lust.  But with the absense of all these things, all she requires is compensation for her time.

This "Why won't a woman dominate me for free?" lament has a simple analogy.  Imagine a guy saying, "Why won't any woman fuck me? I know many want and like sex, so why not fuck me when I walk up to them and proposition me? The only ones that say yes then ask for cash! Those whores!"

Well, it's obvious.  Women might LOVE sex just as much as men do, but generally they like some substance behind it, and don't fuck random guys without at least being attracted to them, friends with them, or romantic with them. The ones that DO fuck random guys with no strings attached are out there, but chances are they are fucking the men they find hot and attractive who have a big charisma factor -- or, they don't really care who they fuck, have no self esteem and a variety of other issues that probably make them unattractive to men.

Dominant women, who enjoy dominating for FREE, generally need a reason to dominate, just like women need a reason to fuck.  Usually it boils down to attraction on a physical or emotional level.  Without that, forget it.

Akasha


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RE: The problem with pro femdoms - 9/29/2006 9:43:46 AM   
Aine


Posts: 820
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline 		Definitely a well thought out explanation.

Though I won't be  surprised if there might be a misconstrument (if that's even a word, I just woke up) of your thread title and an ensuing flame war.  Seems some people have been way up on their high horses with telling other OPs what the OPs meant instead of reading the op for what it was.


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Honey, you obviously missed the "want to be used as a toilet fetish" thread or "where do I get instructions on setting my sub on fire" thread. LOL

Thank you, DelRay for that one.

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RE: The problem with pro femdoms - 9/29/2006 10:38:42 AM   
MasterFireMaam


Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline 		I think this attitude carries over from the adult industry. Most submissive men come to this because it fulfills sexual fantasies (this is not a bad thing). In the adult industry, the women use marketing techniques that put forth that sexually active females "do" a great deal of men and certainly would do any of their fans. Thus, when a man is a "fan" of a particular Dominant women, he expects the same fanship status and are then angry when told, "No." It simply doesn't dawn on him that sexually active women are discriminating.

Oh, and besides that, we have men's magazines like Maxim publishing articles that say, "If you want a hot woman in bed, find a Dominatrix."   But, remember, this is usually in reference to new men who have come to this through the kinky sex route. They will either find someone who is a match, get frustrated at their lack of ability to get laid and leave, or learn about service and how to please a Dominant woman.

Master Fire

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RE: The problem with pro femdoms - 9/29/2006 10:47:29 AM   
Frank01


Posts: 270
Joined: 9/7/2006
Status: offline 		Earn it or pay for it-there is no third alternative.

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RE: The problem with pro femdoms - 9/29/2006 10:59:14 AM   
MasterFireMaam


Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline 		*chuckle*

Well said, Frank.

Master Fire


_____________________________

The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
-----
Ms Relationship Books
-----
BDSM How-To Books

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RE: The problem with pro femdoms - 9/29/2006 11:02:53 AM   
MstrssScarlet


Posts: 633
Joined: 6/3/2005
From: Indianapolis, Indiana
Status: offline 		A very well written post.  Thank you!  As one of the femdoms you are referring to, I attend large events where I play with people I know well and just enjoy spending time with.  I also have a personal submissive who EARNED my respect and friendship who's only tribute is to make sure I'm happy when I'm around him.
A lot of men think less of us because they have to "pay to play" with us.  Try this perspective:  There are people out there who have significant others who are totally vanilla and they don't want any relationships where strings are attached.  Their only chance to participate in the lifestyle is to go to someone who will do it for money and then leave them alone once they're done.
Another thing to think about:  If I have a personal submissive, he's going to do a lot of things for me around the house that I can't perform myself such as painting, cleaning the gutters, etc.  If someone is coming to me as a client, he has no desire whatsoever to do these things for me.  So he pays for his time with me and I take that money and hire someone to do those things for me instead.  Essentially, he is doing for me what a personal submissive would do. 
I already know a lot of people won't agree with me or the OP, but to each their own.  The "business" is here to stay because there are a lot of people who DO agree.
Mistress Scarlet

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RE: The problem with pro femdoms - 9/29/2006 3:27:55 PM   
zenofeller


Posts: 463
Joined: 6/10/2006
Status: offline 		utter nonsense.

firstly, the idea that it's a male job to actually "develop" mutual respect with a woman, date her, god forbid - COURT her, and win affection is crud. i don't see any reason why it couldn't, or shouldn't be a female job.

that reason certainly can't be the fact that women are in short supply. they are not. that reason also certainly can't be that female sex drive is in short supply comparative to the male. it is not.

creating artificial standards that women and women only have to follow (she has to be this tall, weigh this much, be this shaved, breasts this big so forth) only works so far. sure, it artificially diminishes supply so that an outdated model (the woman for sale) is perpetuated, but at the cost of admiting that only some women are marketable. if most women alive aren't, then it's not really about women, is it. besides, people are bound to observe eventually that fashion magazine grade beauty fails to deliver.

but at any rate, the woman that needs to be wined and dined in fact only needs to be shown the door.

quote:


He can't reconcile why, if she wants THIS as much as he does, does she not just do it for free?


there simply is no reconciling. as long as she's in it for the money, she's in it for the money.

quote:


This "Why won't a woman dominate me for free?" lament has a simple analogy.  Imagine a guy saying, "Why won't any woman fuck me? I know many want and like sex, so why not fuck me when I walk up to them and proposition me? The only ones that say yes then ask for cash! Those whores!"

Well, it's obvious.  Women might LOVE sex just as much as men do, but generally they like some substance behind it, and don't fuck random guys without at least being attracted to them, friends with them, or romantic with them. The ones that DO fuck random guys with no strings attached are out there, but chances are they are fucking the men they find hot and attractive who have a big charisma factor -- or, they don't really care who they fuck, have no self esteem and a variety of other issues that probably make them unattractive to men.


you seem to presume that the guy you're talking about is so completely bereft of any qualities, in fact by definition incapable of sparking any interest in any woman. this, i suspect, has to do with your personal outlook on men, and not with anything else.

the criticism against pay per view "femdoms" remain, and are numerous.

1. if you pay she's not dominating anyone. you are. it's the equivalent of being a fat cat and making a starlet suck you off in the restaurant, except your fetish is not restaurant suck but whips and canes.

2. there is no difference between for-pay femdom and for-pay whoredom. in fact most competent whores are perfectly capable of acting out at least basic bdsm scenes. exactly what niche is then left ?

3. there can exist no relationship. even if people are very inclined to fool themselves on the subject, there can never be a relationship. that's why relationships are forbidden in the workplace. that's why psychologists are held to not get involved with patients. to the extent for hire femdom impersonators are anything more than two bit whores, they have similar rules.

4. it is still illegal in many places to exchange money over sexual favors. therefore, to remain this side of prison, most of them will not do anything that could be considered sexual. bdsm without sex ? how about checks with no signature.

5. it is certainly not clear that this imbalance (namely, that male dominants, many of them good at it, would never consider charging, whereas female dominants, from what i hear many of them good at it, would rarely consider pro bono) does not indicate a certain lack of affective capacity of the female.

this last point being the most pungent problem in the entire block. are women simply not capable of love, at least not to the extent and depth men are ?

(in reply to AAkasha)
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RE: The problem with pro femdoms - 9/29/2006 3:35:15 PM   
gooddogbenji


Posts: 5094
Joined: 11/15/2005
From: Toronto
Status: offline 		Why is it that as soon as one thread starts on prodommes, 4 more start up and rant pro prodommes?  Then the men are invited to bash them, someone claims they're against TOS, and we all get pissed off.

Maybe if the pro prodomme segment got off their high, overdefensive horse, and stop making threads, there would be less people bashing them.

Or no?

Yours,


benji

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RE: The problem with pro femdoms - 9/29/2006 3:36:45 PM   
zenofeller


Posts: 463
Joined: 6/10/2006
Status: offline 		benji, pissed off is not that bad.

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RE: The problem with pro femdoms - 9/29/2006 3:40:08 PM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		Some women are capable of great love.

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My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: The problem with pro femdoms - 9/29/2006 3:46:34 PM   
missturbation


Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
Status: offline 		Whilst i agree with the op in that if a man wants a domme who will instantly dominate him, no getting to know one another, no dating etc that his only real option is a pro domme i also agree with good dog benji.
Whilst there is certainly a place for pro dommes and i personally have no problems with what they do i do feel they can be over sensitive and always think they are being criticised.
I have found that most men who go to a pro domme are going for the sexual kick they get out of it whether actual sex is involved or not. Therefore i would say in my opinion that a pro domme works in the adult industry. Of course there are those out there who go just for the control aspects but i would personally say they are far and few between. God forbid though that you voice this opinion to a pro domme as she will tell you sex and sexual kicks have nothing to do with pro dommeing.

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RE: The problem with pro femdoms - 9/29/2006 4:04:32 PM   
LotusSong


Posts: 6334
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Domme Emeritus
Status: offline 		Just one question  (maybe two) for the guys...
 
Could it be that women have figured out your weak spot and therefore have the control in this matter?
 
The ONE thing a woman has to her advantage is your needs.  All males have them.. the tall, small, bald, hairy, fat, and skinny. 
 
Your "needs" created the market. 
 
How you want things to be handled (i.e. the "no strings" concept).. created the market.
 
It's your ideal-  Women know that and.once again.... YOU have created the market.
 
I  see pros as business women.  We can't overpower you.. but we have learned to outsmart you.  And understanding human nature and what drives it is the cornerstone of marketing.
 
Ever look up the Psychic Sylvia Browne's site?  Or Sonia Fitzpatrick's pet  communicator's site? 
.
I think I understand the Pros better now reading these threads and seeing the guy's laments and why. I COULD NOT do their job.   The energy drain from you guys must be horrendous. The OP was very well written. But it leaves me to ask: 
 
What then is your PERFECT scenario?




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RE: The problem with pro femdoms - 9/29/2006 4:34:32 PM   
gooddogbenji


Posts: 5094
Joined: 11/15/2005
From: Toronto
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

Just one question  (maybe two) for the guys...
 
Could it be that women have figured out your weak spot and therefore have the control in this matter?
 
The ONE thing a woman has to her advantage is your needs.  All males have them.. the tall, small, bald, hairy, fat, and skinny. 
 
Your "needs" created the market. 
 
How you want things to be handled (i.e. the "no strings" concept).. created the market.
 
It's your ideal-  Women know that and.once again.... YOU have created the market.
 
I  see pros as business women.  We can't overpower you.. but we have learned to outsmart you.  And understanding human nature and what drives it is the cornerstone of marketing.
 
Ever look up the Psychic Sylvia Browne's site?  Or Sonia Fitzpatrick's pet  communicator's site? 
.
I think I understand the Pros better now reading these threads and seeing the guy's laments and why. I COULD NOT do their job.   The energy drain from you guys must be horrendous. The OP was very well written. But it leaves me to ask: 
 
What then is your PERFECT scenario?



Pros have just as much of a need for the money as men have for the kink.  Otherwise they would not do it for money, but for something else, like devotion, service, and love, or whatever.

The world is about supply and demand.  Look up the number of prodommes in any large city.  Granted, some of them are insanely busy, but most are not (at least in my experience)

There is a balance.  Enough are making money to keep the industry alive, the same as any other industry.

And saying it's outsmarting us is like saying Microsoft outsmarted us by selling us software - it's a business transaction where both sides win.

Yours,


benji

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Prevent global warming. Stop burning patchouli.

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RE: The problem with pro femdoms - 9/29/2006 4:43:19 PM   
LotusSong


Posts: 6334
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Domme Emeritus
Status: offline

And saying it's outsmarting us is like saying Microsoft outsmarted us by selling us software - it's a business transaction where both sides win.

Yours,


benji
[/quote]

And were would we be without our computers....and the software that runs it...


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RE: The problem with pro femdoms - 9/29/2006 4:48:04 PM   
justheather


Posts: 1532
Joined: 10/4/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong
And were would we be without our computers....and the software that runs it...





You still should have bought a mac.

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And the table perfectly level
When you cut me out of my life
And paste me in that book you always carry.
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RE: The problem with pro femdoms - 9/29/2006 4:48:13 PM   
Frank01


Posts: 270
Joined: 9/7/2006
Status: offline 		There are very few businesses that cater as EXACTLY to customer specs as Pro Dommes.

It's a wonderful alternative for toppers from the bottom-most free Fem doms would bounce your ass to the curb for doing that.

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RE: The problem with pro femdoms - 9/29/2006 4:52:21 PM   
gooddogbenji


Posts: 5094
Joined: 11/15/2005
From: Toronto
Status: offline 		Not on CM, that's for sure.

No one is gaining more than anyone else in the Domme/sub transaction.  If prodommes could ask for more money, they would.

Yours,


benji

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Prevent global warming. Stop burning patchouli.

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RE: The problem with pro femdoms - 9/29/2006 5:18:20 PM   
Najakcharmer


Posts: 2121
Joined: 5/3/2004
Status: offline 		Even when I'm at BDSM event thinking that I'd really like to do some spanking and flogging and maybe fuck a willing submissive up the ass, I am totally turned off by a crude or impersonal approach even if the sub is offering exactly what I was in the mood to do.  Yes. I want to do these things because I enjoy them.  But most importantly I want to do those things with someone I actually like and click with as a person, and with someone who likes and respects me as a person in turn. 

The whole "I don't care who you are, I don't especially like you, I don't want to take the time to get you know you, I don't care what you want, just do me the way I wanna get done" approach is so unattractive that I'll turn it down even if it's offering something I really do want.  It's kind of like being hungry and being offered a plate of steak covered with dogshit.  No thanks, I'm not quite THAT hungry. 

Yes, I do want to do those things.  I just don't automatically want to do them with YOU, and if you act like a selfish dick who cares about nothing outside of himself and his own desires, I will never want to do those things with you. 

Do I need to be "wined and dined"?  Sometimes that's appropriate and sometimes it's not.  Depends on the circumstances and the individual.  Spending money is only one way in which you can show that you care about another person's pleasure and happiness.  There are many other ways that work just as well. 

I do need to be treated like a fellow human being who is worthy of caring, consideration and respect .  The way I usually ask to be treated is like a friend, which may seem counterintuitive to some male subs who want to get to know a dominant woman.  But that's the "getting to know you" type of relationship that works for me.

PS - anyone who is calling professional dommes "two bit whores" and stating that women are not capable of love is revealing far more about himself and his emotional issues than about women or pro dommes.

< Message edited by Najakcharmer -- 9/29/2006 5:20:14 PM >

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RE: The problem with pro femdoms - 9/29/2006 5:28:20 PM   
zenofeller


Posts: 463
Joined: 6/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

Just one question  (maybe two) for the guys...
 
Could it be that women have figured out your weak spot and therefore have the control in this matter?

 
no, seriously. this way of thinking is actually an effective, if subtle, way of keeping women bound. think about it.

quote:


The ONE thing a woman has to her advantage is your needs.  All males have them.. the tall, small, bald, hairy, fat, and skinny. 
 
Your "needs" created the market. 

 
this worldview is really not different from proposing female circumcision.


< Message edited by zenofeller -- 9/29/2006 5:29:20 PM >

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RE: The problem with pro femdoms - 9/29/2006 5:31:11 PM   
zenofeller


Posts: 463
Joined: 6/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Najakcharmer
I do need to be treated like a fellow human being who is worthy of caring, consideration and respect .  The way I usually ask to be treated is like a friend, which may seem counterintuitive to some male subs who want to get to know a dominant woman.  But that's the "getting to know you" type of relationship that works for me.

PS - anyone who is calling professional dommes "two bit whores" and stating that women are not capable of love is revealing far more about himself and his emotional issues than about women or pro dommes.


righty. do you feel like you need to be treated as a fellow human being that needs to pick up the check every other time ?

(in reply to Najakcharmer)
Profile   Post #: 20
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