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RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submissive?


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RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/12/2006 6:07:07 PM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		Jewel, it's interesting to note that the process of distinguishing submissive from slave requires (admittedly interesting) personal stories, rather than a straight forward rendition of what those differences are.  I think that's testimony to the fact that they defy definition (though the effort is both amusing and enjoyable).
 
A few things that jumped out at me:

She wants to retain the "right" to decide whether or not she wants to do what is asked of her and how she does it if she does decide to.

What sort of power exchange relationship does that describe?  Certainly not one that I'm familiar with, though anything is possible if the two (or more) parties in the relationship agree to it.  Still, I cannot imagine how such an arrangement can rise to the level of a power exchange relationship, if no power is exchanged (ie: if the Dominant is not in control).
 
Afterward... well, hopefully before she got much of it done, we could look at it and say "that's hideous!!" and she could agree and not be concerned about our reaction because she isn't accountable... it's our fault.
 
That's all fine and good when you really ARE acountable, as in she followed your instructions.  But let's say she just did a poor job of it, the polka dots were sloppy and the orange paint got all over the baseboards and molding.  Are you still accountable?  Or is she responsible for her own handiwork?  If a slave is unaccountable for their actions, then you bear the burden of all that they do.  My experience with human nature is that those who aren't accountable generally don't put forth their best effort, so be prepared to live with "good enough to get by".
 
Further, if a slave is unaccountable for their actions, then there would be no purpose in correction or punishment.  In fact, beyond being worthless, punishment and correction would serve no purpose beyond retribution or as a method of releasing anger. 

 
It isn't about making decisions. The submissive mindset is about pleasing the owner and in return being pleased that they were able to do it. They can, and sometimes do, purposefully disobey an owner in order to see to it that something is done that they know for a fact the own wants done. That's one mindset...

I'm not sure I agree with this analogy.  None of my submissives would have disobeyed my instructions for an orange wall with purple polka dots because they thought I wouldn't end up liking it that way.  They would not deign to defy my instructions by trying to infer my "tastes" for fashion (my fashion tastes are deplorable).  In fact, several of them would relish the task knowing full well that I would dislike the result, and quietly relish the "I told you so" running through their head.  *LMAO*
 
Now if we were headed to the gym and I instructed her to turn right and she knew the gym was to the left, she might "disobey" my instruction in order to accomplish my objective... arriving at the gym.  But that's not a matter of her inferring my taste, but rather adhering to my stated desire to arrive at the gym.  I would be miffed if she had knowingly turned right and allowed my gaffe to take us out of our way (despite rumors to the contrary, I have not yet achieved perfection and do, on rare ocassion, make mistakes).

A slave will do what they are told... period (ok, sometimes they disobey but not for the same reason) because doing what they are told is more important. If I were to tell twicehappy that she is to never answer the phone she wouldn't... even if it was me calling. No, that wouldn't make me very happy at the time, but she was obeying.
 
Does any of that make sense?

I must confess, now we're on to inferring motivation and it has become rather confusing.  Would she never answer the phone, even if you were laying on the floor unconscious and it was the rescue squad calling for directions to your home?  Isn't it just a tad contradictory to say that a slave will always disobey... period, well, with exceptions?  Seriously, the "iron clad" characteristics of a slave that I was expecting are beginning to appear as tin foil.
 
I'll dispense with the issues on which we have agreement.  Namely the "submissive continuum" and "heirarchy".  And truth be told, I would be exceptionally disappointed if you were to decide one day not to travel the path less taken. :)
 
Tag, you're it.
 
John

< Message edited by Rover -- 10/12/2006 6:11:47 PM >

(in reply to ShiftedJewel)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/12/2006 6:10:58 PM   
liljoy


Posts: 577
Joined: 3/25/2004
Status: offline 		Hybrid lol that's exactly how i've always felt because what i am has always fallen somewhere inbetween most peoples definitions. so i am a slubbie :)
lil_joy

(in reply to ShiftedJewel)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/12/2006 6:18:50 PM   
crouchingtigress


Posts: 4387
Joined: 3/19/2006
From: Maui
Status: offline 		i am going to guess that you are asking this question because you want to see who you are in relation to this new world you are about to explore....might i suggest not doing that for a while?
 
hang out, have fun, play laugh make friends...and i promise you that your definitions of all the words in this lifestyle will shift and grow just like you will.

_____________________________


Service slut, durable plaything, and ponypenquincatdogpig, to Lee Harrington

This is him

"Its none of my buisness what other people think of me."




(in reply to liljoy)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/12/2006 6:29:14 PM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

quote:

Ok, let me see if I'm following this correctly.  You stop me if I have it wrong.  First, you're making a distinction between a Dominant and a Master?  I can understand that there is a difference between being Dominant, and being Master to a submissive or slave (ie: Dominant describes the individual, whereas Master describes their position in a power exchange relationship).  However, unless I'm mistaken, you're inferring that there is some other different between a Dominant in a power exchange relationship, and a Master in a power exchange relationship.   

It has always puzzled me why there are so many heated debates on the slave vs submissive issue but so little, if any, on the dominant vs master or mistress.  I have brought it up in other forums and it has been met with a silence that is deafening every single time.
Just wondering.


catize, obviously the issue did not escape my notice either.  But before jumping to any conclusions, it's only fair to allow the poster to further elaborate so that we fully understand her intentions.  Then we'll hang her.
 
John

(in reply to catize)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/12/2006 6:57:48 PM   
DiurnalVampire


Posts: 8125
Joined: 1/19/2006
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline 		Personal stories are not necessarily necessary, they just grease the proverbial wheels, since they are far easier to tell.

My personal take on this question, as learned from the years I have been in the lifestyle...
A submissive is a person who feels more comfortable NOT being the one in charge They are happiest when someone else is making the decisions, sexually and often socially as well. They retain a lot of their abilities to make the decisions, and can excercise that freedom to do so. They devote themselves to the one they are submissive to, but they do not necessarily exist for that person.

A slave, however, exists for his/her owner. They need to be controlled, and find it difficult to be happy without someone else calling all the shots. They willingly give up their rights to make decisions on their own, as wel as often giving up the rights to most things.  They want to give up their freedom to someone they trust will take care of their needs whom they can then focus their energies on pleasing.

This is just my personal take, of course.  I do hope it helps, without any personal stories.  I have plenty of those as well... however, I think this should prove the point im trying to make.

DV

_____________________________

I will be your Dominate if you will be my submit - Fox

Snarko Ergo Sum
If you cannot change your mind, how are you so sure you still have one? -proverb

*Owner of Fox - collared 10/13/07*
VampiresLair

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/12/2006 7:02:47 PM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		DV, thanks for your contribution to this most vexing topic.

A slave, however, exists for his/her owner. They need to be controlled, and find it difficult to be happy without someone else calling all the shots. They willingly give up their rights to make decisions on their own, as wel as often giving up the rights to most things.  They want to give up their freedom to someone they trust will take care of their needs whom they can then focus their energies on pleasing.

Seriously, this description sounds like most submissives I have known, and all that I have owned.  In point of fact, rather seems to categorize the vast majority as slaves. 
 
If I were Winnie the Pooh, I'd have a puzzled puzzler by now.
 
John

(in reply to DiurnalVampire)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/12/2006 7:09:04 PM   
DiurnalVampire


Posts: 8125
Joined: 1/19/2006
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline 		The problem is, there are no cut and dry definitions.  Not everyone falls into one category or the other. AS has been covered in many many other forums before this, these are defined by the indivdual most of the time. I prefer Pet to either sub or slave.  Every boy or girl I have owned have conidered themselves either sub or slave. ASk each, they will have different reasons for picking their distinction. Its like whether a Dominant calls themselves a Master, Owner, Keeper, Lord or any other designation. What makes someone one or the other?
Not to complicate things further, I just dont see why people need a definition to know what they want.
DV

_____________________________

I will be your Dominate if you will be my submit - Fox

Snarko Ergo Sum
If you cannot change your mind, how are you so sure you still have one? -proverb

*Owner of Fox - collared 10/13/07*
VampiresLair

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/12/2006 7:34:18 PM   
adaddysgirl


Posts: 1093
Joined: 3/2/2004
From: Syracuse, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

DV, thanks for your contribution to this most vexing topic.

A slave, however, exists for his/her owner. They need to be controlled, and find it difficult to be happy without someone else calling all the shots. They willingly give up their rights to make decisions on their own, as wel as often giving up the rights to most things.  They want to give up their freedom to someone they trust will take care of their needs whom they can then focus their energies on pleasing.

Seriously, this description sounds like most submissives I have known, and all that I have owned.  In point of fact, rather seems to categorize the vast majority as slaves. 
 
If I were Winnie the Pooh, I'd have a puzzled puzzler by now.
 
John


Rover,
 
i have never read a post of yours before (probably because i am fairly new to the message boards) but my thoughts seem to mirror yours almost identically.  i just honestly don't have the time to comment on all the posts i'd like so i am just taking this opportunity to express my agreement with what you have so far said.
 
Even your brief statement here is exactly one of the things i have been trying to say as well.  Seems so simple yet doesn't seem to 'sink in' anywhere.
 
If you notice this quote below,
 
quote:



I found something that almost made sense to Me - a sub gives of her/himself often,  but a slave gives of her/himself just once - forever (well one can hope!) and then is owned. 


this is the same blurb i have found on several of these same threads.  As a matter of fact, one of the first ones i read immediately gave this an instant answer as to the difference between the two.  i still have not figured out who originally coined this phrase but i am beginning to think it was passed down along with the 10 commandments....lol.  i personally see no validity to this statement....and have yet to hear any reasonable explanation of it. 
 
In any event, i definitely would have commented on more of your posts but i'd probably be typing all night 
 
Your persistence is admirable 
 
Daddysgirl



_____________________________

I prefer to be true to myself, even at the hazard of incurring the ridicule of others, rather than to be false, and to incur my own abhorrence.

Frederick Douglas

"I am in a relationship which employs punishment because it fulfills me to do

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/12/2006 7:42:04 PM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		Thanks, Daddysgirl.  Glad you're enjoying the ongoing discussion.  Of course, it's not really necessary that anyone agree or disagree... though I do enjoy making people think and for them to decide for themselves what makes sense, and that they be able to explain it and defend it.
 
John

(in reply to adaddysgirl)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/12/2006 7:51:31 PM   
adaddysgirl


Posts: 1093
Joined: 3/2/2004
From: Syracuse, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: catize
It has always puzzled me why there are so many heated debates on the slave vs submissive issue but so little, if any, on the dominant vs master or mistress.  I have brought it up in other forums and it has been met with a silence that is deafening every single time.
Just wondering.


i honestly think it's a female thing....perhaps a competition or rivalry...something like that....that the guys don't seem to get into.   Even on these discussions....although my experience here is limited, i have rarely seen a Master come on and explain why his sub is a slave.  i have seen Mistresses do this...but rarely a Master.  So i wonder why that is?
 
i also think there would be less debate on all of this if people just stop comparing themselves to others.  Not to be offensive, but it does seem the 'slaves' are the ones mainly saying 'i am more of this or give up more or whatever, than a submissive'....using the word 'more' as a comparative.  i think that is what keeps the battle raging, so to speak.  i mean, i don't see subs coming on and saying they are more of anything than a slave.  As a matter of fact, many who may identify with being a slave in their relationship do not prefer to use the term in reference to themselves anyway. 
 
In any event, not to get off topic of your post, i might like to view a thread on the difference between Dommes and Mistresses.  That might be pretty interesting too 
 
Daddysgirl

_____________________________

I prefer to be true to myself, even at the hazard of incurring the ridicule of others, rather than to be false, and to incur my own abhorrence.

Frederick Douglas

"I am in a relationship which employs punishment because it fulfills me to do

(in reply to catize)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/12/2006 7:58:34 PM   
DiurnalVampire


Posts: 8125
Joined: 1/19/2006
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline 		I am a Domme, a Mistress, according to LoverForDomme a Goddess... they are all just titles stuck to how I live my life.  There is no debate to be had, they are al esentially the same thing in my eyes. The only difference would be an Owner... which someone cannot be without a sub/slave/pet to own.

But I agree, adaddysgirl, it seems like a pissing contest at times.  I dont care what someone I am involved with decides to call themselves.  As long as they serve as I wish, and I am hapy with that service... they can call themselves a martian for all I care.

DV

_____________________________

I will be your Dominate if you will be my submit - Fox

Snarko Ergo Sum
If you cannot change your mind, how are you so sure you still have one? -proverb

*Owner of Fox - collared 10/13/07*
VampiresLair

(in reply to adaddysgirl)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/12/2006 8:01:07 PM   
Kedicat


Posts: 251
Joined: 3/13/2005
Status: offline 		A slave does anything you want them too. A submissive is not quite your pefect match 

(in reply to Asako)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/12/2006 8:03:55 PM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		Some folks may enjoy this David Davidson article, which is at least remotely relevant to the current topic.  David is a serious hoot, and never fails to entertain while making a genuine point.
 
http://www.the-o-zine.com/summer_2005/David.htm
 
Enjoy.

John

(in reply to DiurnalVampire)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/12/2006 8:29:36 PM   
adaddysgirl


Posts: 1093
Joined: 3/2/2004
From: Syracuse, NY
Status: offline 		"And without universally accepted standards, any award is meaningless outside of the group awarding it."
 
Good lord...i love that! 
 
But anyway, i was once tempted to start a thread to all those who call themselves Master....how did you earn that title?  What qualifies you to carry that title?
 
i wanted to do that because if you put in the word 'Master' in the search box on CM, you will come back with too many matches to even count.  Are all those that put Master in their handle really Masters?  And see, that is what is confusing, particularly to newbies.  i know when i first started out, if someone referred to themselves as 'Master something', i automatically presumed they were a Master.  i have since found that is a totally crazy! 
 
i will ask that question of someone who contacts me and has Master in their handle (or profile).  Honestly, most will either say they 'have been in the lifestyle 20 years' (guess that qualifies them...whatever that means...lol)....or they have collared a slave online....another lol 
 
In any event, i may still someday start that thread....with no expectation of how many will reply.
 
Daddysgirl

_____________________________

I prefer to be true to myself, even at the hazard of incurring the ridicule of others, rather than to be false, and to incur my own abhorrence.

Frederick Douglas

"I am in a relationship which employs punishment because it fulfills me to do

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/12/2006 8:32:52 PM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		I can only speak for myself, but giving myself a title would seem like self-masturbatory adulation.
 
And much like yourself, I amuse myself by asking the same questions (how did you earn that title?) when I meet folks.  The answers are invariably revealing.
 
John

(in reply to adaddysgirl)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/12/2006 8:33:06 PM   
adaddysgirl


Posts: 1093
Joined: 3/2/2004
From: Syracuse, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DiurnalVampire

I am a Domme, a Mistress, according to LoverForDomme a Goddess... they are all just titles stuck to how I live my life.  There is no debate to be had, they are al esentially the same thing in my eyes. The only difference would be an Owner... which someone cannot be without a sub/slave/pet to own.

But I agree, adaddysgirl, it seems like a pissing contest at times.  I dont care what someone I am involved with decides to call themselves.  As long as they serve as I wish, and I am hapy with that service... they can call themselves a martian for all I care.

DV


DV,
 
Have there actually been threads on this difference?  If so, i might be tempted to look them over.  Quite honestly, the most threads i have seen debate about have been about pro-dommes and i really haven't followed those very much.
 
DG

_____________________________

I prefer to be true to myself, even at the hazard of incurring the ridicule of others, rather than to be false, and to incur my own abhorrence.

Frederick Douglas

"I am in a relationship which employs punishment because it fulfills me to do

(in reply to DiurnalVampire)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/12/2006 8:36:27 PM   
DiurnalVampire


Posts: 8125
Joined: 1/19/2006
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline 		There might have been.  I havent a clue.  LuckyAbatross is the linkqueen.  She'd know.
If not, why not start one? You might enjoy reading the answers. Personaly, a title is just a title.  I dont use them unless the circumstance calls for it.  Others dont usualy see it my way. 
(edited becasue i hate my touchpad and it sent before I was finished)

DV

< Message edited by DiurnalVampire -- 10/12/2006 8:38:53 PM >

_____________________________

I will be your Dominate if you will be my submit - Fox

Snarko Ergo Sum
If you cannot change your mind, how are you so sure you still have one? -proverb

*Owner of Fox - collared 10/13/07*
VampiresLair

(in reply to adaddysgirl)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/12/2006 8:36:41 PM   
LordODiscipline


Posts: 995
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: adaddysgirl

If you notice this quote below,
 
quote:



I found something that almost made sense to Me - a sub gives of her/himself often,  but a slave gives of her/himself just once - forever (well one can hope!) and then is owned. 


this is the same blurb i have found on several of these same threads.  As a matter of fact, one of the first ones i read immediately gave this an instant answer as to the difference between the two.  i still have not figured out who originally coined this phrase but i am beginning to think it was passed down along with the 10 commandments....lol.  i personally see no validity to this statement....and have yet to hear any reasonable explanation of it.   


I agree - this is a bunch of hogwash as far as stating a differentiation between anything and something else....
 
We can "hope" that the world does not end... and, I would be willing to bet that most submissives "hope" that their relationships do not end - just like a "slave" would "hope" that their relationships do not end...
 
And, (as Rover stated) this non-differential definition would encompass all relationships I have had in BDSM...
 
~J
 
(who stopped making silly deliniations without definition with my girl... she is "girl" - anything else is a futile attempt at trying to appease people who argue about degrees of being... something which diminishes existence and is contrary to "being")

_____________________________

"Anyone who thinks they're important is usually just a pompous moron who can't deal with his or her own pathetic insignificance and the fact that what they do is meaningless and inconsequential."
William Thomas

(in reply to adaddysgirl)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/12/2006 8:41:46 PM   
Mavis


Posts: 828
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: adaddysgirl

  Not to be offensive, but it does seem the 'slaves' are the ones mainly saying 'i am more of this or give up more or whatever, than a submissive'....using the word 'more' as a comparative. 


What is interestig is unless i missed it, the only poster adding to this thread proclaiming to actually be a slave, is me..   and i have posted twice my feeling that the implication that a slave is deeper or a more evolved type of submissive is just bunk.    It's as if, people, having been exposed to that attitude from some slaves, refuse to see those who do not share that belief.

i have commented twice that my use of the label comes only from Master choice of what to call me, and that being to use His definitions of what the sub role is and what the slave role is..  in O/our dynamic.  Then, i tried to explain those definitions, although anyone who has read me for any length of time knows i do NOT subscribe to the theory that one can define roles in any way that will be agreed upon.

Rover, i might give it one more shot at jumping Your hoop, but i'll save it for later in the weekend, as i have family stuff to tend to, and cursory reading is all i can manage for now.  i'm kind of hoping that in th main time, You might run into my other postings and see i'm not so stuck on defining things or defending O/our use of terms that i'll play contortionist to validate what i think i'm seeing...

Your subs have been offended by prior slaves claims of being better, so You'd like to challenge slaves to defend the indefensible?  Sorry, i'm not her, i didn't do it.  if i could speak for the actions and attitudes of all slaves, i would be queen slave, and probably have much better clothes than i do.

(in reply to adaddysgirl)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submiss... - 10/12/2006 8:51:46 PM   
Mavis


Posts: 828
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline 		Someone mentioned this topic might be a female thing...   you'd think so, But, i have seen male Dominants that claim "Oh no...  I am a Master"  and they clearly feel there is a difference and they have chosen a role They feel happy with.

Oddly enough, i have never ONCE seen a Domme correct anyone and say "Oh no!  I am a Mistress"  or I am a Goddess..     and rarely have ever seen a male submissive or slave get too wrapped up in sub or slave debates.  For some reason, it seems to be a Male / female issue taken up by the parties mentioned.

(in reply to Mavis)
Profile   Post #: 60
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