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ORIGINAL: Rover

Jewel and catize, I think the illuminating information is going to have to come from Dominants who identify as "Masters" and differentiate themselves on some basis other than ownership.  However, it has been my experience that relatively few are willing to engage in such discussion, unlike slaves and slave owners who are gracious enough to participate.
 
Unless those Masters are willing to step forward, it's a bit like preaching to the choir. 
 
John\

Stop being so modest.

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ORIGINAL: Mavis

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ORIGINAL: adaddysgirl

  Not to be offensive, but it does seem the 'slaves' are the ones mainly saying 'i am more of this or give up more or whatever, than a submissive'....using the word 'more' as a comparative. 

What is interestig is unless i missed it, the only poster adding to this thread proclaiming to actually be a slave, is me..   and i have posted twice my feeling that the implication that a slave is deeper or a more evolved type of submissive is just bunk.    It's as if, people, having been exposed to that attitude from some slaves, refuse to see those who do not share that belief. 

i have commented twice that my use of the label comes only from Master choice of what to call me, and that being to use His definitions of what the sub role is and what the slave role is..  in O/our dynamic.  Then, i tried to explain those definitions, although anyone who has read me for any length of time knows i do NOT subscribe to the theory that one can define roles in any way that will be agreed upon.

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Right, i said "i have seen"..  not "i have read"..  i have personally spoke to Dominants that make a distinction between being a "mere Dominant" and prefer to be considered Masters.  i would agree with you that being and claiming are two different things, and that's one of those "eye of the beholder" type things.   Where i said i had never seen a Domme make the same declaration, that would be why you can't find threads on it, they aren't here, or i've never seen them.  Dommes don't seem to get hung up on their "masterliness".

To clarify, from my experience with personal face to face discussions, this seems to be a hot topic with mostly male Dominants, female subs and slaves, male subs and slaves less so.  i haven't gone over the list of participants in this thread, but for now, other than Jewel, who is speaking on behalf of Her family, her slave, and her SO who is a Master,  i don't think there have been many Dommes participating. 

All i was doing was pointing out if it was a female thing, we wouldn't see Rover so involved. and we could expect to see more Dommes running with it too.

i have no idea why more Dommes aren't posting here.  Or slaves for that matter.  Perhaps they are just tired of the topic...i don't know.  But again, i have not seen much from Masters defining the difference here either....not ongoing anyway.  And as for Rover....he's just challenging some ideas that others have, and asking for clarity.  And i for one have found this whole thing quite interesting 

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ORIGINAL: Sab

The eternal question - and one you will find no real answer to. You will see that some here will diect you to other discussions and expect you to read them in full, yet, as you are new to the life, which is D/s, M/s, BDSM, or even operating a vacuum cleaner - the answer is as complicated as the question - and that isn't what you expected.

What you must do is set yourself a certain amount of paramiters - you can do this by stipulating how far you wish to go. Go, in a simple sense, means into this lifestyle - and to complicate it further, there are some here who HATE the term 'lifestyle'.

Do you wish to submit wholehearted to one person? Do you wish to be a mere object that wishes to be used for no other pupose other than an object? Do you wish to be in a caring and loving relationship where you are cared for, yet have to obey every command? Do you wish to be taken as a sex object? Do you wish to be flogged for a crossed word? Many, many questions to ask yourself - and those are the ones you need to ask before you can ask the one you have.

Each of us have different ideals and ideas - and you see that many of us disagree as well as agree - but, to answer your question directly and without fear or favour, 'What is the difference between slave and sub?' We haven't a fucking clue!

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ORIGINAL: Rover

I used the gym example intentionally to see if you would draw that distinction.  And now we've discovered a legitimate point of divergence; as it relates to the example used, slaves are more literal than are submissives.  And that could be (could be) a legitimate difference between the two.  Something to give some consideration and study. 

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ORIGINAL: Amaros

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ORIGINAL: Sab

The eternal question - and one you will find no real answer to. You will see that some here will diect you to other discussions and expect you to read them in full, yet, as you are new to the life, which is D/s, M/s, BDSM, or even operating a vacuum cleaner - the answer is as complicated as the question - and that isn't what you expected.

What you must do is set yourself a certain amount of paramiters - you can do this by stipulating how far you wish to go. Go, in a simple sense, means into this lifestyle - and to complicate it further, there are some here who HATE the term 'lifestyle'.

Do you wish to submit wholehearted to one person? Do you wish to be a mere object that wishes to be used for no other pupose other than an object? Do you wish to be in a caring and loving relationship where you are cared for, yet have to obey every command? Do you wish to be taken as a sex object? Do you wish to be flogged for a crossed word? Many, many questions to ask yourself - and those are the ones you need to ask before you can ask the one you have.

Each of us have different ideals and ideas - and you see that many of us disagree as well as agree - but, to answer your question directly and without fear or favour, 'What is the difference between slave and sub?' We haven't a fucking clue!

Well, since we did go through that whole, interminable thread trying to figure out what "slave" means, I'll recap - I don't automatically assume that everybody in here has ADHD, newbie or otherwise, but it's it is helpful to summarize, it saves a lot of scrolling through the flames if nothing else.

Breifly then, my take on it:

There is a sort of distinction between a slave and a submissive, but it operates on number of levels.

There are two wyas of looking at any word/symbol: implicit meaning and explicit meaning. I argued fairly long and hard about my reservations concerning the use of the term "slave" at all, as it has a very specific explicit definition to the world at large, and only an implicit meaning within BDSM.

I won't recap the explicit vs. implicit debate, since I had it mostly with myself anyway, but just address the implicit connotations between "slave" and "submisive".

I don't use the word "connote" loosely, because an implicit connotation is very difficult - let's just say impossible - to nail down precisely, by definition of being implicit - it has a specific meaning to you, and to you're intimate social circle, i.e., prople who share a certian set of similar expectations and experience - and really has very little or no explicit meaning outside this circle, i.e., other than in the global political consensus sense of non-consensual servitude.

In short, the map is not the territory, etc., and calling yourself a slave doesn't make you any more slavish, and we'll never be able to nail down a single, specific meaning of the word in a BDSM context, all we can do is try to loosely interpret what it implies.

When used in a profile, it does tend to elicit a some connotations, at least to me, and here is where the rubber hits the road in terms of the OP - "submissive" connotes to me that you are probobly willing to put up with most of the perversions I wish to inflict upon your tender flesh, with respect to negotiation, limits, etc. - to me it indicates basically that you want somebody else to do all the work in bed, while housework, job, etc., is negotiable, and how far I can go with you depends on how far I can get you to trust me, etc., i.e., it's a median starting point for establishing the D/s dynamic.

Calling yourself a slave, on the other hand connotes fewer boundries, you'll wash the car, etc. and generally serve -in other than sexual capacities, although again, this is somewhat subjective, and this is what describing yourself as a slave connotes to me - and I base this mostly on the things self described slaves post as opposed to what self described submissive post about themselves and the way the do wiiwd.

i.e., less negotiation, fewer restricitions or druthers on what I do to you or tell you to do, i.e., it's a deeper immersion in the service role - and I'm not going to recap the whole identity/action thing, i.e., being and doing, suffice it to say that in practical terms, it's doing, while being is a particular hermetic psychological state that has explicit meaning only to you, and only implicit meaning to everyone else, based upon how you comport yourself.

All it really give me is a vague clue as you how you percieve your role - you'll have to flesh it out in interaction.

In the end, it's really just about the individual - the irony is that in the non-consensual history of slavery, slaves were pretty much expected to be rebellious, that's why they had to beaten and chained, no?

Thus, if we were going get technical, and look at it through a historical lens, one would have to say that a slave requires a greater level of training, supervision and scrutiny than a submissive, who does what they do out of a need to be submissive.

Oop's, I was going to simplify, and here I go complicating it again, lol.

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ORIGINAL: adaddysgirl


i have no idea why more Dommes aren't posting here.  Or slaves for that matter. 

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ORIGINAL: Rover

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ORIGINAL: Sinergy

I personally think that whether one is a Dominant or Master/Mistress or slave or submissive is defined by what one does, not by what one thinks they are.

Boy, can I agree that people cannot be defined by what they THINK they are.  And who can't relate to the observations readily available at any gathering of lifestylers?
 
But do you really think that people are defined by what they do?  I have worked on my car from time to time, but I'm far from being a mechanic.  I cut the lawn, but I'm no gardener.  I replaced two light fixtures in the kitchen recently, but I'm no electrician.
 
And what if someone is "doing" nothing?  What about a Dominant or submissive/slave that is not currently in a power exchange relationship?  Are they no longer Dominant or submissive?  Must people be defined by external sources, or by virtue of other people?
 
I'm not sure I'm comfortable with that.  What say you?
 
John

And as for the last part.....an unemployed mechanic, in my opinion, is a mechanic nonetheless (once he's proved that's he's really a mechanic of course)   

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ORIGINAL: adaddysgirl

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ORIGINAL: Rover

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ORIGINAL: Sinergy

I personally think that whether one is a Dominant or Master/Mistress or slave or submissive is defined by what one does, not by what one thinks they are.

Boy, can I agree that people cannot be defined by what they THINK they are.  And who can't relate to the observations readily available at any gathering of lifestylers?
 
But do you really think that people are defined by what they do?  I have worked on my car from time to time, but I'm far from being a mechanic.  I cut the lawn, but I'm no gardener.  I replaced two light fixtures in the kitchen recently, but I'm no electrician.
 
And what if someone is "doing" nothing?  What about a Dominant or submissive/slave that is not currently in a power exchange relationship?  Are they no longer Dominant or submissive?  Must people be defined by external sources, or by virtue of other people?
 
I'm not sure I'm comfortable with that.  What say you?
 
John

i personally have to agree with Sinergy here.  To me, it is about what they do....not what they think about themselves....that matters more to me.  i may have said this before but when i am contacted by a dom (or Master), i always like to ask his experience with D/s.  Is he just starting out?  Has he ever been in a D/s relationship before?  Is his experience limited to online stuff?  Was it live in?  Long distance?  i guess i just have been 'fooled' too many times by those claiming to be dom when they really weren't at all and were really only looking for kinky sex, and by those who called themselves Masters but had no M/s experience....nor 'proper credentials'...lol.
 
And i know guys who have no mechanics degree....nor any paper certifying them as a mechanic....but they have been working on cars for 20 ....so yes, i would say he is a mechanic.  Again, i would use length of experience as a gauge....not just something someone does intermittently. 
 
And as for the last part.....an unemployed mechanic, in my opinion, is a mechanic nonetheless (once he's proved that's he's really a mechanic of course)   
 
DG

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ORIGINAL: Sab

And please simplify that further - why did you quote me or am I missing something?

My reply to the OP was, as I feel others have seen, was to inform them that we all have a different perception as to what a slave/sub/Master/Dom actually is. The age old equation = ask 1000 etc and you get 1000 different answers. I, personally, don't think you can have a standerdised unit of subhood/slavehood - I do think it is all in the personal dynamic of that relationship that any and all involved in choose - but, and I freely admit, I could be wrong.

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ORIGINAL: Sab
The eternal question - and one you will find no real answer to. You will see that some here will diect you to other discussions and expect you to read them in full, yet, as you are new to the life, which is D/s, M/s, BDSM, or even operating a vacuum cleaner - the answer is as complicated as the question - and that isn't what you expected.

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ORIGINAL: Asako

I'm a little new to the lifestyle, and noticed the two options when filling out my profile.  What is the difference?

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ORIGINAL: lesbiangirlslave

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ORIGINAL: Asako

I'm a little new to the lifestyle, and noticed the two options when filling out my profile.  What is the difference?

Very interesting question. my opinion is that a submissive listen and do the most things the Dom says. But it goes never as far as for a slave. A sub can have an own will, soul and body. A sub can therefore diside for him/her self. Mostly she/he don't, but its possible. If a Dom ask to forfill her wishes she can obey or not. Mostly she shall obey but thats not necessarely all the times. A slave has given the complete controll out of her hands to her Mistress/Master. She can't never refuse or disobey her Mistress. She is the property of her Mistress and the Mistress decide in all the ways. What she eat, sleep, dress, go out or not. Every part of her life is under control of her Mistress. She has no own will. The behavior of the slave to her Mistress is to behave as her Mistress told her, there are certain agreement how to behave. But the slave always act as told by her Mistress, even as she don't like it. To obey is her life, to please her Mistress is her pleasure. Make her Mistress happy is the existence of her being. There is much more to tell about the differance but others shall also give there opinon.

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ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave

Difference between sub and slave?? Just the spelling!!!

Magik's slave

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ORIGINAL: LordODiscipline

I seem to recall that YOU (Rover) were appointed as "Grand Master" two years ago..

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ORIGINAL: LordODiscipline

"What They Do" is as specious and vague a comparisson of differentiation as any other I guess...
 
I mean - what it comes right down to is:
 
"What they do as you [or, Sinergy] determine as compared to what someone else does as you [or, Sinergy] deliniate makes it slavery or submission to YOU.
 
But, Rover (over there) [who incidentally believes in unicorns and the tooth fairy], might determine that anyone can be a slave if they simply tap their red shoes together and wish it well and hard enough.
 
(Pay no attention to the Rover behind the curtain!)
 
It is a subjective determinant STILL and the fact that it may be "what they do" as compared to "how they define themselves" as compared to "how strict their relational dynamics/rules/protocols, etc are" is STILL at issue because it is the individual defining it.
 
These conversations always come down to this:
 
Because we (as a sub-culture) do not have a set of definitions approved by the Better Pervert Keeping Council, there is no way to determine what IS and IS NOT a slave/submissive except by personal (What they do, per what "I" believe) means...
 
...and, it is all electronic ink under some proverbial bridge (and, the fishing sucks)

~J