RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submissive? (Full Version)

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justheather -> RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submissive? (10/15/2006 8:08:54 AM)

Well, I can relate some of this to my D/s relationship...
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

Gosh, as I review this in greater detail I must note:
 
Like Napoleon, the Germans in WWII were defeated by the weather and poor supply lines.  Rather than consolidating the territory gained, reinforcing their supply lines, and waiting until spring to press the battle, Hitler insisted that the German forces press on through first the mud, and then the bitter winter. 

Last winter I was the creator, under my Daddy's direction, of some lovely naked snow angels. That was done in the bitterest of winter. We have pictures to prove it.

quote:

They were unable to supply their armies for winter and provide materiel for prosecution of the war at the same time.  And still, they came within a hair's breadth of breaking the Red Army.


And as for breath, well, on the day after the first frost, my Daddy pointed to one of our roosters and said "Look you can see his breath. I bet you know all about--"...oh wait, you said hare not cock. Never mind.






Rover -> RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submissive? (10/15/2006 8:11:52 AM)

*LMAO*  And thank you, heather, for dispelling the myth that war has nothing to do with BDSM.  I stand corrected.
 
John



WhipTheHip -> RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submissive? (10/15/2006 8:19:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Asako
I'm a little new to the lifestyle, and noticed the two options when filling out my profile.  What is the difference?


The difference between "slave" and "submissive" is roughly five letters.  They both start with an "s"
and end with a "e."     It is all semantics.    Be what you want to be, and call yourself what you want
to call yourself.  Write your own book.   



LordODiscipline -> RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submissive? (10/15/2006 9:48:36 AM)

The French Maginot line was not overcome by German Paratroopers... the Germans did not employ paratroops during the initial assault, because it went past and around the Maginot line through Belgium, Holland, and the Ardennes forest (which the French thought was impregnable, despite the fact that it was also a battle ground in WWI).
 
German paratroops were used in limited quantity in support operations to disrupt communications.
 
French resistance in WW2 was fairly ineffetive- their contribution during the war has been well overblown and there were more people who supported the Vivhy goivernment then fought against the Germans - as they did sign an armistice with the Nazis... there would be better examples of guerilla intrangigence afterWW2 when the Russians used Spetznaz troops to support and train guerilla units throughout the world in the 40's and 50's.
 
Vietnam was a wholey uinique experience where you had a populace that had been on a war footing for the last century (or, since the Traung twins lived, several centuries before, depending on who you are talking to - a great book is one called "Fire in the Lake" for a complete history of Vietnam - not just the war)
 
It was not "massed artillery" alone that turned the tide in WW1 - but, the whole plethora of mass killing machines - most notably the machine gun, gas, and the "knee mortars".
 
Not all were effective killers, but they were instruments of terror among both sides and all men. MOst effective wasa the machine guns... they came into their own in that time - and there was (during the war) no effective counter strategy for infantry to overcome interlacing/interlocking lines/fields of fire.
 
That would be developed duing the Spanish Civil War and the beginning of WW2 when (heroic) individual action demonstrated the possibilities that existed for overcoming such a formdable defense.
 
I would not credit Rumsfeld with the modern military's ability to adapt... that goes back to the administration of Reagan and the rebirth of hte military under some very visionary leaders who realized the fluid tools and means of conducting wars and defensive strategies and trained their people to THINK rather than simply obey staid orders and tactics tha could be ineffective... they went back all the way to Cassius and Ceaser -  initiated training to adopt means championed by Agrippa and Alexander - considered Molotov and Giap - and, in general depoliticized and used examplesas available to ensure the troops learned abot and from the best...
 
Anyhow - this is boring now.
 
~J



KnightofMists -> RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submissive? (10/15/2006 10:22:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

quote:

but if he had not and had purchased the wrong wire i would have installed it


I also wondered if this was a slave thing.  I would not install wire that I knew was wrong for the job.  It seems like a waste of time and effort to me. 



This is not a slave thing... personally this is a stupid thing!!

My girls would be in serious trouble if they had information that they withheld from me that would of saved me from making a poor decision.  They have a mind.. they have knowledge... that is MINE... they are obligated to share what they know ... What I do with the knowledge they ask to share is my decision.......

of course... some just want to push the car around... I personally learned that it is easier to drive the car.



agirl -> RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submissive? (10/15/2006 10:44:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

quote:

but if he had not and had purchased the wrong wire i would have installed it


I also wondered if this was a slave thing.  I would not install wire that I knew was wrong for the job.  It seems like a waste of time and effort to me. 



Actually, in that case, I'd probably do the same thing......though I'd certainly say quite clearly that it wasn't the correct wire for the job that he wanted accomplished. If he insisted, then of course, on his head be it.

agirl



KatyLied -> RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submissive? (10/15/2006 11:05:12 AM)

My Dom would be appreciative if I pointed it out the error to him.  I would not be disrespectful, of course.  But I think in this case speaking up is preferable to an electrical fire.  And I do believe that some things transcend the lifestyle, so far that thinking hasn't created a problem for me.



Sab -> RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submissive? (10/15/2006 12:11:00 PM)

American troops are 'taught' to think for themselves?! Please explain why so much "friendly" fire. :-S






Look for the tongue in cheek comment. :D



ScooterTrash -> RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submissive? (10/15/2006 12:31:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

quote:

but if he had not and had purchased the wrong wire i would have installed it


I also wondered if this was a slave thing.  I would not install wire that I knew was wrong for the job.  It seems like a waste of time and effort to me. 



Actually, in that case, I'd probably do the same thing......though I'd certainly say quite clearly that it wasn't the correct wire for the job that he wanted accomplished. If he insisted, then of course, on his head be it.

agirl

That's the whole point, the responsibility shifts at that point (As an fyi, the difference in the wires was 3 wires with a ground vs. 4 wires with a ground, not a safety issue). Offering information is fine, refusing to do as told after offering the information however, is being insubordinant. Katy comments she wouldn't do it, if that works for her fine, but I would personally have an issue with that. There is always that possibility that there may have been an intent for the extra wire that was not disclosed. Knight suggests that is would be just stupid to go ahead and use the wrong wire, but if the extra wire was actually planned for something and then it wasn't there, who would be at fault? It all boils down to following directions, even if they don't understand the reason behind it. If they follow through and do as they are told, no matter what the outcome, they are not responsible for it, that falls as you say...on the Dominant/Owner's head.



agirl -> RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submissive? (10/15/2006 12:50:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ScooterTrash

quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

quote:

but if he had not and had purchased the wrong wire i would have installed it


I also wondered if this was a slave thing.  I would not install wire that I knew was wrong for the job.  It seems like a waste of time and effort to me. 



Actually, in that case, I'd probably do the same thing......though I'd certainly say quite clearly that it wasn't the correct wire for the job that he wanted accomplished. If he insisted, then of course, on his head be it.

agirl

That's the whole point, the responsibility shifts at that point (As an fyi, the difference in the wires was 3 wires with a ground vs. 4 wires with a ground, not a safety issue). Offering information is fine, refusing to do as told after offering the information however, is being insubordinant. Katy comments she wouldn't do it, if that works for her fine, but I would personally have an issue with that. There is always that possibility that there may have been an intent for the extra wire that was not disclosed. Knight suggests that is would be just stupid to go ahead and use the wrong wire, but if the extra wire was actually planned for something and then it wasn't there, who would be at fault? It all boils down to following directions, even if they don't understand the reason behind it. If they follow through and do as they are told, no matter what the outcome, they are not responsible for it, that falls as you say...on the Dominant/Owner's head.


... It wouldn't be the *wrong wire*,( as twice mentioned) though.....as you had a specific purpose and plan in mind.

I do follow your point about just *doing*.......I just think the anology was a little misleading....in that *wrong* didn't mean *wrong* but rather .....*not quite as expected with the information at hand*.

agirl




twicehappy -> RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submissive? (10/15/2006 1:32:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: justheather

This describes a kind of dynamic Ive never encountered before. Is this something that is specific to your M/s relationship or do you know other people who would act the same way?I dont believe I know anyone, even a person who identifies herself as a slave, who would handle the situation in that manner.


We know of several relationships that work the same way. As well as knowing more than a few slaves who would have reacted in the same manner i did.

quote:

ORIGINAL: justheather
Are you saying that unless you are asked, you do not even offer information, respectfully and with deference, that would make your master's life less complicated?


There are times like with the wire i do offer information that might be helpful, if he chooses to disregard that info then the onus is on him. Then there are times like the hole in the floor, we are both looking at the hole in the floor, we can both also plainly see the hole in the outside wall and the space on the wall where the insulation needed to be replaced and the interior wall restored. He sees it as well as i do so if he points to a specific part of it and tells me to fix it i am not going to question him about the rest of it.
 
It is not a matter of my not offering to do it, it is a given if he told me to fix the rest i would; it is rather that i did what he told me to trusting that if he had wished me to do the rest he would have told me so.
 
This also does not mean i am not free to decide to do things for them on my own, if i decide to bake an apple pie i just do it, i do not ask first.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

quote:

but if he had not and had purchased the wrong wire i would have installed it


I also wondered if this was a slave thing.  I would not install wire that I knew was wrong for the job.  It seems like a waste of time and effort to me. 


Actually, in that case, I'd probably do the same thing......though I'd certainly say quite clearly that it wasn't the correct wire for the job that he wanted accomplished. If he insisted, then of course, on his head be it.


Exactly, the accountabilty for this occuring would have been Scooter's not mine.
 
And TADAH, the giant ceiling fan and the antique style lighting that goes with it are wired and i just turned them on from both switches. Yay!
 
(ps: i will answer my mail, i've been really busy today getting the wiring run.)

 



twicehappy -> RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submissive? (10/15/2006 1:36:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

quote:

but if he had not and had purchased the wrong wire i would have installed it


I also wondered if this was a slave thing.  I would not install wire that I knew was wrong for the job.  It seems like a waste of time and effort to me. 


As my time and effort both belong to him it is his decision how to use it. I am content with the fact that he does us it.



twicehappy -> RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submissive? (10/15/2006 1:38:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: justheather

Last winter I was the creator, under my Daddy's direction, of some lovely naked snow angels. That was done in the bitterest of winter. We have pictures to prove it.


I love making naked snow angels or just rolling around in the snow then jumping in the hot tub.



KnightofMists -> RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submissive? (10/15/2006 2:02:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ScooterTrash

That's the whole point, the responsibility shifts at that point (As an fyi, the difference in the wires was 3 wires with a ground vs. 4 wires with a ground, not a safety issue). Offering information is fine, refusing to do as told after offering the information however, is being insubordinant. Katy comments she wouldn't do it, if that works for her fine, but I would personally have an issue with that. There is always that possibility that there may have been an intent for the extra wire that was not disclosed. Knight suggests that is would be just stupid to go ahead and use the wrong wire, but if the extra wire was actually planned for something and then it wasn't there, who would be at fault? It all boils down to following directions, even if they don't understand the reason behind it. If they follow through and do as they are told, no matter what the outcome, they are not responsible for it, that falls as you say...on the Dominant/Owner's head.


I suggest that it is Stupid for a Master to make things harder for themself instead of easier.  Your reading of what I say is laced with self-defensiveness... which is strange in it's own way.

Second... Following directions is only half of the journey... the second half is to acheive the results wanted.  And results do not equate to knowing the reasons.  ... 

I go to the Information booth to get directions....  I get the directions and follow it exactly as required and end up not where I wanted to be.  So who is responsible.  Well both... I asked what was suppose to be an informed source... and the booth themself gave me bad information. 

It's not alot different when one withholds information.  If  person withholds information that doesn't allow the results to occur that is wanted... then they are just as responsible as the person that gives bad information.  If as a Master I choose not to hear the information or worse... don't use all that a slave has to offer in order to achieve the results wanted.. then shame on me.  But, I do not let a slave out of jail if they withhold their knowledge when it is critical to achieving the results I want.

After supervising and directing people for alot of years. I have learned that just giving direction doesn't equate to getting the result I want.  In fact, Getting results are much more dependent on applying sufficient effort in the appropriate manner... giving direction is only a part of the formula to getting the desired results.

Of course... some actually enjoy pushing their cars despite the effort required to do so.



agirl -> RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submissive? (10/15/2006 2:44:59 PM)

I understood the point that was being made...trusting and accountability .........just not in the context it was used.

agirl 



Sab -> RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submissive? (10/15/2006 4:38:53 PM)

But - who is pushing the car? The Dom? The slave? And is the sub steering? 



Sinergy -> RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submissive? (10/15/2006 4:59:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Iskander

He possibly means the Alsatz region, which has always been a bone of contention between the 2 nations...

Iskander...



Hello A/all,

Thank you, Iskander.  Alsace-Lorraine (Alsatz under the Germans) was the part of Europe I was thinking of.

I thought it was paratroopers, LoD, but my point was that the German's attacked from a different direction than the Maginot Line was built to defend against.

I am puzzled by the comments about Vietnam.  Fire In The Lake is good, although another good basic history of the war is Stanley Karnow's "Vietnam" which was based / had based on it a PBS series that can probably be Netflixed.  Some of the individual histories are rivetting.  Check out "Diary of a Viet Cong Soldier" or "365 Days" if you are interested in reading about individual people's experiences during the war.

Vietnam was a French colony the previous century or two, so I am puzzled by your comments about being on a war footing.

Sinergy



KatyLied -> RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submissive? (10/15/2006 5:03:11 PM)

quote:

I suggest that it is Stupid for a Master to make things harder for themself instead of easier.  


I'm going to take this one step further and suggest that it's stupid for anyone to make things harder for themself instead of easier.  It has nothing to do with D/s (M/s) and everything to do with common sense.  You relationship should not rob you of good sense.



adaddysgirl -> RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submissive? (10/15/2006 5:08:45 PM)

Scooter and Jewel,
 
i am not going to knock the exepectations you have of twice in your relationship.  It would not make sense even to me to do so.  But i think it is more apparent that the issue still comes down to "is twice a slave because she blindly obeys and has a certain 'mindset', and others are not slaves if they do not follow the way you all do things?"  i think this is the major contention here.
 
i don't think many here would say twice was not a slave....but i don't think others liked to be judged if they are or not based on your personal standards.
 
Let's look at a Gor slave.  She has rituals and such, and can be sold at her Master's discetion.  Does it mean that because others do not adhere to those same guidelines, they are less a slave?  If the guy next door to you is a Master but he doesn't expect his slave to blindly obey, is she less a slave?  And what if the only "true slaves" were those that were owned only by "true Masters"?  Who would qualify as a slave then?
 
i think it is great that what you have works for all of you.  You and yours sound very happy....and that's the point, isn't it?  When those involved cease to be happy in their 'role', then what's the sense of the relationship?
 
i would like to think that a slave is determined by her partner's expectations and as long as she is serving him in his expected capacity and meeting his demands, who is it up to to call her anything less?  When i had a partner, he would sometimes call me his 'lil slave girl' and he wasn't what he considered a Master....but i still found it quite endearing. 
 
So i guess if someone wants to come on here and say "i am a slave to my Master", i don't really feel the need to find out how she serves to determine if that makes me a slave as well, or if i do it the way she does.  Again, that is something that will be determined by my own partner.
 
i really think if we can come to some agreement that a slave isn't a slave because she does xyz, or because she has some different mindset than others who also serve, we would stop having all this competition and disagreement on the subject.
 
i hope this is taken in the spirit it was meant.
 
DG



ScooterTrash -> RE: What's the difference between a slave and a submissive? (10/15/2006 5:12:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

I suggest that it is Stupid for a Master to make things harder for themself instead of easier.  Your reading of what I say is laced with self-defensiveness... which is strange in it's own way.

No, actually is wasn't laced with anything...actually the particular example we are using would have been a fuckup on my part had I not taken the information provided at face value...lol. Nothing would have been hurt, but it would have cost more for no reason. And I certainly agree that the result is the objective, poor management or a poor decision on anyone's part, making the call, is not going to be productive. I think where I was going with this, and since you apparently also have experience supervising people, is although you should always relay how, you don't always want to have to constantly be questioned why? I have no issue with someone offering opinion or their take on something they are directed to do, but once the decision is made, it stands and the consequences if it comes out poorly, is the responsibility of the one calling the shots.



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